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I feel a little sorry for the actually non-fascist fans but PR-wise the Get would have to go. Red Talons may be bigger psychos but they're all wolves and their species is dying so it makes sense.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:05
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Kavak posted:To add fuel to a completely different fire, a facebook post from a writer on the upcoming W5 board game says the new lore has the Get of Fenris falling to the Wyrm. Just reading the comments there makes me want to actually try and learn Forsaken 2e to scrub the taste of Apocalypse out of my mind. It's been hinted that something's up with the Get since Heart of the Forest, the Werewolf adventure game that came out around when Earthblood came out, and the latest V5 comic from what I hear. I assume, though, that them falling to the Wyrm is different from the tribe that fell into total zeal, unless that's what they meant during the W5 preview stream. That could mean that perhaps there's still one more group that's unplayable in the W5 core, since I doubt Werewolf is going to make antagonists playable if Vampire didn't. Edit: It just hit me that this means I probably have to go scrap some stuff in my V5 campaign yet again, I had the majority of the Lupines on my city's outskirts be a still very much in the Nation Get, whoops! At least I could scrap the Imbued hooks before one of them showed up on screen. Free Cog fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 00:06
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Rand Brittain posted:Honestly, they've done some stupid things, but "deciding that the Nazi splat isn't worth trying to scrub the stink off of" doesn't sound like such a terrible idea. There's been a lot of work done by authors and fans for them to not be nazis. I'm not a big fan of them so I don't care much, but I kinow a bunch of people will sad/mad/smad that their tribe got removed for something that hasn't been true since the late 90s.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:09
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I'm more curious what they're going to do about collapsing all indigenous werewolves into "are you an untrustworthy shaman or a follower of the flesh-eating wind" or the tribe who's genetically predisposed to homelessness. Or the drunken Irish tribe. Man. WtA.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:16
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'm more curious what they're going to do about collapsing all indigenous werewolves into "are you an untrustworthy shaman or a follower of the flesh-eating wind" or the tribe who's genetically predisposed to homelessness. Or the drunken Irish tribe. Man. WtA. Don't forget the brave dead ones who sacrificed themselves.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:29
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'm more curious what they're going to do about collapsing all indigenous werewolves into "are you an untrustworthy shaman or a follower of the flesh-eating wind" or the tribe who's genetically predisposed to homelessness. Or the drunken Irish tribe. Man. WtA. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. oWoD is (category)-essentialism all the way down. The entire point of the setting is to set up Pokemon battles between whichever cultural stereotypes most tickle your fancy.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:Don't forget the brave dead ones who sacrificed themselves.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:36
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'm more curious what they're going to do about collapsing all indigenous werewolves into "are you an untrustworthy shaman or a follower of the flesh-eating wind" or the tribe who's genetically predisposed to homelessness. Or the drunken Irish tribe. Man. WtA. They could still just cancel this and tell the fans to play better games, same with M5.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:38
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Kavak posted:To add fuel to a completely different fire, a facebook post from a writer on the upcoming W5 board game says the new lore has the Get of Fenris falling to the Wyrm. Just reading the comments there makes me want to actually try and learn Forsaken 2e to scrub the taste of Apocalypse out of my mind. I will just say that Forsaken 2e, once you get past the conlang jargon, is great for being the game of defending a community you care about.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:45
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Kavak posted:They could still just cancel this and tell the fans to play better games, same with M5. They cannot, because it is specifically these cruel caricatures fans are attached to, not familiar rules, new rules, the existence of a metaplot, lack of a metaplot, standardized canon, "toolbox" design, grandiose cosmic stories, personal-scale local stories, etc.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:45
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The Stargazers are lazy racial stereotypes but also I love them, they're my guys.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:48
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Ferrinus posted:They cannot, because it is specifically these cruel caricatures fans are attached to, not familiar rules, new rules, the existence of a metaplot, lack of a metaplot, standardized canon, "toolbox" design, grandiose cosmic stories, personal-scale local stories, etc. I just said tell them to play better games, it doesn't matter if they actually listen or mald incessantly about it.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:51
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NikkolasKing posted:This all makes sense. It's definitely a topic I need to read up on more, and this current discussion motivated me to grab a couple scholarly books on the subject. Matrix really is kind of the peak of it and there's a part of me that wonders if part of the decline is that so far when there's a piece of conspiracy theory fiction, you go "yeah but it's not better than The Matrix." Another element that might matter is 9/11 - there was a period of sincere conspiratorial thinking about 9/11 and that group has been thoroughly routed. joylessdivision posted:Counter point: Qanon. Eh I think it's always been batshit, my family are all old hippies and Qanon isn't that much crazier than Posadism. It just tends to involve substantially more Actual Terrorism so the stakes are a lot scarier for a lot more people. Though I do think you're right to point out that Q is very much a grand conspiracy narrative part and parcel of a longstanding Western tradition going back centuries. I guess I mostly discounted it because, well, it's uncool and runs in a different demographic than the conspiracy theories I'm more familiar with. My bad. Mors Rattus posted:I will just say that Forsaken 2e, once you get past the conlang jargon, is great for being the game of defending a community you care about. God I hate the F2 color choices. The most unreadable *OD book in terms of just basically following what the gently caress is going on sentence to sentence. Not nearly the worst in terms of layout or offense or anything like that, just actively causing eye strain and memory strain all the drat time.
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Apr 10, 2022 01:06
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Fuzz posted:Me coming in to say how great something in CofD is just more worthless echo chamber and adds nothing new to the discussion, so why bother wasting time and energy on it? That seems like a really weird perspective on "places to talk about games we like", and I would suggest you just have fun talking about whichever Of Darkness.
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Apr 10, 2022 01:48
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It honestly annoys me that they're just making Get nazis again after spending what... 30 years trying to watch that stench off?
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Apr 10, 2022 02:00
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Rand Brittain posted:Honestly, they've done some stupid things, but "deciding that the Nazi splat isn't worth trying to scrub the stink off of" doesn't sound like such a terrible idea. Yeah, it's a great idea because other forsaken is superior to apocalypse in every way
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Apr 10, 2022 02:13
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Kurieg posted:It honestly annoys me that they're just making Get nazis again after spending what... 30 years trying to watch that stench off? White Wolf and Onyx Path spent 30 years trying to undo that. Paradox is looking at world events and saying "Eh, gently caress it." It's going to be really funny if the Black Furies still have TERFy parts though.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:27
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:the tribe who's genetically predisposed to homelessness. I will knife fight you naked in the desert at high noon to preserve the honor of the Bone Gnawers. While there's a bit in the Revised tribebook about them being cursed with regards to money it's still presented more as them being stuck with little resources to start with, and what they do have they share with their kinfolk as well as the fellow needy. citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 02:29
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citybeatnik posted:I will knife fight you naked in the desert at high noon to preserve the honor of the Bone Gnawers. I take it back, as terrible as WTA is, WTF cannot be better because they do not have the Bone Gnawers.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:39
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The one okay tribe because they're not an ethnic stereotype or completely insufferable. Forsaken has like 4-5 of those though.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:40
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citybeatnik posted:I will knife fight you naked in the desert at high noon to preserve the honor of the Bone Gnawers. Didn't Revised also try to remove the genetic aspect and make it about if the Tribal Totem accepted you or not? Of course this would be fully realized with the Forsaken Tribes.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:42
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Tulip posted:Matrix really is kind of the peak of it and there's a part of me that wonders if part of the decline is that so far when there's a piece of conspiracy theory fiction, you go "yeah but it's not better than The Matrix." Another element that might matter is 9/11 - there was a period of sincere conspiratorial thinking about 9/11 and that group has been thoroughly routed. It's two parts: it's not so much the 9/11 conspiracy stuff as it's just 9/11 thoroughly shifting US cultural concerns towards addressing the national trauma by focusing on all the ways the US is good, just, and will stick a boot up their rear end (it's the American way!), and the millenialism fading away rather rapidly once the apocalypse doesn't start on January 1st, 2000.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:54
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Soonmot posted:I take it back, as terrible as WTA is, WTF cannot be better because they do not have the Bone Gnawers. You can just have packs of Iron Masters with appropriate totemic bans!!!
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Apr 10, 2022 02:57
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Ferrinus posted:You can just have packs of Iron Masters with appropriate totemic bans!!! true, glad i can flipflop back to wtf superiority. real post though: I am looking forward to see how the new devs salvage wtf. Werewolf was probably the worst of the owod main lines when it came it insensitivity, unless you count KOTE as a mainline and not a spinoff.
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Apr 10, 2022 03:44
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Ferrinus posted:You can just have packs of Iron Masters with appropriate totemic bans!!! But can I have a character with Hootenanny, the best gift?
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Apr 10, 2022 04:04
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citybeatnik posted:But can I have a character with Hootenanny, the best gift? I think Gibbous Moon and Inspiration can do that.
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Apr 10, 2022 04:43
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Kavak posted:White Wolf and Onyx Path spent 30 years trying to undo that. Paradox is looking at world events and saying "Eh, gently caress it." It's going to be really funny if the Black Furies still have TERFy parts though. "if you have nazi ancestors you are forever tainted and might as well lean into fascism and evil" is a real loving weird take for a game to take though. cause now it's gonna be "If you're an ethnically irish werewolf you're a drunkard. if you're an ethnically german werewolf you're evil." E: like the entire point of Revised was "Can we rise above the sins of the past and still try and save this broken world." And apparently the answer is "Sure unless your ancestors were nazis lol."
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Apr 10, 2022 05:30
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Kurieg posted:"if you have nazi ancestors you are forever tainted and might as well lean into fascism and evil" is a real loving weird take for a game to take though. cause now it's gonna be "If you're an ethnically irish werewolf you're a drunkard. if you're an ethnically german werewolf you're evil." Oh and I guess the War of Rage where they killed off a bunch of other shapeshifters. Or how the Shadow Lords were explicitly riding with the conquistadors who devastated Central and South America. Those are okay.
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Apr 10, 2022 05:49
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Also it's only recent ancestors that count, since the sort-of-original-sin of WtA werewolves was The Impergium when they mass-culled humanity. So you only get one freebie before they start counting against you. Also please ignore the faction of Wolf-born werewolves who are practically orgasming at the thought of mass murder.
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Apr 10, 2022 05:50
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ritorix posted:So what I'm saying is keep discussing it here, there are players here and interested lurkers. But you don't have to defend games so much as just describe them and what you enjoy - if the game is worth it, people will come around. SA went through this with 5e D&D too (omg that was painful). And maybe also look at those v5-friendly spaces if you really want to dive in. That's exactly what I do. I wasn't the one to label it as "defending" I just talk about it and the stuff I like.  I Am Just a Box posted:I'm a big old CofD fan who's never played an oWoD game and I'm curious what they're doing with H5 mechanically. How much does it deviate from V5's mechanical spine? From that of Hunters Hunted? Are there extended character-building options besides Merits and Loresheets? How much does it zoom in and out, how versatile is it with the different "tiers" of play as Vigil saw them? How does it model NPC antagonists, and what kind of antagonists is it focused on? These are good questions, and I have no idea! I'm curious about all of this too. I personally am fine with Imbued being gone, but that's because I have always loving hated how the oWoD had its head rammed straight up the rear end of Abrahamic faiths when 40% of the loving planet doesn't believe in them, so it's been nice to see how stuff like Caine being the progenitor of all Vampires in V5 is no longer OOC hard canon and is just a religion for vampires, albeit the most predominant one a la Christianity across the world. Adding room for doubt and interpretation are what have breathed new life into the IP, imo, so even if they go with this angle on Hunters where your Edges can be justified as some Holy mission from the Spaghetti Monster or whatever the gently caress, that's fine. The less hard truth, the better. RE: WtA5, gently caress if I know. Get sucked rear end and were fascist dickheads, good riddance. Getting rid of Metis also a good thing. Basically so much of W5 was cringy grossness that I never really gave a poo poo about the line and only ever used them as antagonists in other lines' games. Whatever they do it'd probably be an improvement, Apocalypse loving sucked and had broken rear end systems to boot. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 05:52
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Fuzz posted:These are good questions, and I have no idea! I'm curious about all of this too. Isn't there a preview showcase doc out available for free if you have an account with the WoD website? I dunno if it's a playtest or just a teaser siiced up from different parts, but it's apparently got suggestions of what's going on, like the existence of Creeds in a non-imbued context, "desperation dice," and I guess apparently an ugly cover they had to go back and redesign?
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Apr 10, 2022 06:58
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Fuzz posted:so it's been nice to see how stuff like Caine being the progenitor of all Vampires in V5 is no longer OOC hard canon and is just a religion for vampires, albeit the most predominant one a la Christianity across the world. That's a major lol from me. Caine is still 100% canon. Edit: if it wasn’t true a ton stuff would be different. You can’t just say it’s not canon without the hard work that should go with it. MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 07:39
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As much as I love the oWoD and the dread of ancient monsters sleeping in the dark places of the world, I've never liked Cain being 100% where vampires came from. I find the setting far more fun when the various clans/sects/whatever have their own version of where they came from whether it involves Cain or not. Like, The Followers of Set/The Ministry saying Set was actually the first vampire or at least equal to Cain is great because for all anyone knows they're just full of poo poo, but maybe they aren't.
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Apr 10, 2022 08:48
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TheKingslayer posted:As much as I love the oWoD and the dread of ancient monsters sleeping in the dark places of the world, I've never liked Cain being 100% where vampires came from. I find the setting far more fun when the various clans/sects/whatever have their own version of where they came from whether it involves Cain or not. Like, The Followers of Set/The Ministry saying Set was actually the first vampire or at least equal to Cain is great because for all anyone knows they're just full of poo poo, but maybe they aren't. I think it was the original Book of Madness which listed each Tradition's interpretation of what Demons were and where they came from. I liked that a lot. There can be some definitive canon answer but, and this was something I had to make myself understand back when I got into WoD, it doesn't really matter. Your character isn't going to know even a fraction of what you know. And that's fine, good even. There's been alternate versions of the origin of Kindred since forever, like you noted. Each Clan has its own account of the Second Generation I believe, and then there's stuff with Lilith which usually strongly disagrees with the Caine-centric version of events. Revelations of the Dark Mother is some good stuff.
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Apr 10, 2022 08:54
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I usually like to think of Cain's stories as more parable and metaphor. The story of Cain's childer ignoring his rules and making their own childer that turned against him is just kind of a lesson to be careful who you embrace. Somewhere down the line though certain vampires took it all literally and now we have the Path of Cain. Completely unrelated to that, it just came to me that I swear there were advertisements for a zombie addition to the oWoD in the back of some of the books. Does anyone else remember that and did anything ever come of it?
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Apr 10, 2022 09:27
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TheKingslayer posted:As much as I love the oWoD and the dread of ancient monsters sleeping in the dark places of the world, I've never liked Cain being 100% where vampires came from. I find the setting far more fun when the various clans/sects/whatever have their own version of where they came from whether it involves Cain or not. Like, The Followers of Set/The Ministry saying Set was actually the first vampire or at least equal to Cain is great because for all anyone knows they're just full of poo poo, but maybe they aren't. It's part of the whole oWoD package of racialized/ethnically relevant supers. This sort of makes sense in a world-building perspective, but as soon as you try to actually play it, it feels really weird to me that these different supers somehow stayed siloed and apart until now, where they're all intermingling and traveling across the globe. It makes sense that you'd want to tie these mythological creatures to their associated culture, but it's way better in nWoD where Kindred are broadly speaking the same sort of monster everywhere you go, but local customs and culture have interpreted that in their own way, both among mortals and among vampires. You do get regionally relevant bloodlines and things like that, but it isn't clear whether reality has influenced myth or the opposite has happened. worm girl fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 09:59
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MonsieurChoc posted:That's a major lol from me. According to the Bahari, it's actually Lilith, and they're the #2 most common religion, to the point where almost any place you find kindred there's at least a handful of them around. There's another religion that doesn't even think the generation numbers are right and were just made up by the meths to make themselves out to be top dogs, and so the 10th gen might as well be the 100th gen, and there could be even more terrifying poo poo from some bygone primeval era sleeping under a glacier somewhere. Caine is simultaneously more in the forefront (the Camarilla no longer aggressively denies his existence entirely and allows Noddists to practice openly as long as they obey the Traditions) but also there's plenty of alternatives for STs to employ to throw some doubt or change the vibe, if they like. This is very different from the old Revised days when the Caine myth was 100% fact and there was zero doubt OOCly about it.
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Apr 10, 2022 12:45
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Soonmot posted:real post though: I am looking forward to see how the new devs salvage wtf. Werewolf was probably the worst of the owod main lines when it came it insensitivity, unless you count KOTE as a mainline and not a spinoff. There's in fact a tribe named after a people's legends who, it turns out, would really prefer it if people didn't write it or speak it out loud. I don't think Uktena is taboo but you're still shoving a lot of indigenous folks under a vague horned serpent myth that most don't have. (Technically Uktena covers from the southern US all down through South America.) Kurieg posted:"if you have nazi ancestors you are forever tainted and might as well lean into fascism and evil" is a real loving weird take for a game to take though. cause now it's gonna be "If you're an ethnically irish werewolf you're a drunkard. if you're an ethnically german werewolf you're evil." A terrible offense to the memory of Sgt. Rage and his Killing Commandos. Although on a more germane point they keep the Tzimisce who had Dr. Totentanz but that's okay I guess.
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Apr 10, 2022 16:03
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TheKingslayer posted:Completely unrelated to that, it just came to me that I swear there were advertisements for a zombie addition to the oWoD in the back of some of the books. Does anyone else remember that and did anything ever come of it? You mean this? It was a Wraith the Oblivion supplement. 
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Apr 10, 2022 16:54
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Dawgstar posted:A terrible offense to the memory of Sgt. Rage and his Killing Commandos. Although on a more germane point they keep the Tzimisce who had Dr. Totentanz but that's okay I guess. Wasn't a lot of the wroth over V5 the fact that the Sabbat were excluded from being officially supported character options?
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Apr 10, 2022 17:02
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