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zoux posted:What agent does "respiratory failure, vestibulo-atactic syndrome" suggest “vestibulo-atactic syndrome” is a neurological disorder…so nerve agents, likely.  e: specifically, fucks with your sense of balance (ataxia: “Impaired balance or coordination, can be due to damage to brain, nerves, or muscles.”) Some nerve agents target the one link between all 3, the neural synapses and some enzymes found there. I made 3 mistakes in the army in Afghanistan: asking a chemical warfare officer to tell me about her job, verifying some of what she said with the nurse I worked for, then digging down the rabbit hole of chemical weapons and learning some fun things. Q: what’s the difference between a pesticide and chemical weapon? A: the size, and (more importantly) whatever you view as a pest. Icon Of Sin fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 21:55
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zoux posted:What agent does "respiratory failure, vestibulo-atactic syndrome" suggest Nerve agent.
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Apr 11, 2022 21:57
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zoux posted:What agent does "respiratory failure, vestibulo-atactic syndrome" suggest These symptoms sound like organophosphate poisoning. That's the general category that includes the older Sarin/Soman/Tabun/VX agents. If I remember correctly, Russia had developed additional newer chemical weapons of this type. I think most of the Novichok agents fall into this category. I hope we shipped Ukraine a lot of atropine and DuoDote injectors  e: Icon Of Sin posted:Q: what’s the difference between a pesticide and chemical weapon? There's this, but there's also environmental persistence. Organophosphates used as pesticides don't typically persist in the environment all that long, while weapons like VX are designed to persist a lot longer in the environment to be a more effective weapon. Some agents like Soman also have characteristics where there is rapid "aging" of the targeted molecule becomes irreversibly damaged and makes treatment even harder. Dong Quixote fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 21:58
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https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1513589963320967172?t=H3H3iGrjNDTV3guqVBWGPQ&s=19
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Apr 11, 2022 22:01
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In case of confirmed chemical attacks by Russia, is the play as Ukraine to retaliate? I mean at worst even Ukraine probably has enough pool supply stores to be able to produce large amounts of chlorine gas and if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet about the availability or structural integrity of Russian Gas Masks. Is it distribute Mopp Gear and hope for the best?
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Apr 11, 2022 22:13
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Defenestrategy posted:In case of confirmed chemical attacks by Russia, is the play as Ukraine to retaliate? I mean at worst even Ukraine probably has enough pool supply stores to be able to produce large amounts of chlorine gas and if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet about the availability or structural integrity of Russian Gas Masks. Is it distribute Mopp Gear and hope for the best? Chlorine isn't a very effective chemical weapon. I have no idea if the Ukraine had a chemical weapons program, but even if they wanted to use them, you need specialized equipment for most of them to disperse the agents effectively. Seems like that capability would be pretty hard to stand up in the middle of a war.
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Apr 11, 2022 22:19
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No. Chemical weapons are fickle as all hell, and you’re only ever a change of wind away from experiencing them yourself. You’ve also got to decontaminate the area somehow, if it’s a place you want to keep (like a major city  )
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Apr 11, 2022 22:19
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Second question: do you really have to inject the atropine directly into your heart like in The Rock
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Apr 11, 2022 22:20
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Defenestrategy posted:In case of confirmed chemical attacks by Russia, is the play as Ukraine to retaliate? I mean at worst even Ukraine probably has enough pool supply stores to be able to produce large amounts of chlorine gas and if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet about the availability or structural integrity of Russian Gas Masks. Is it distribute Mopp Gear and hope for the best? Chemical weapons aren't actually that useful except in very specific circumstances that the Ukrainian army isn't that likely to want to create. Basically they're only useful against people in the situation the Azov defenders are in, when you're an aggressor like Russia who doesn't care about potential collateral damage including yo your own troops.
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Apr 11, 2022 22:26
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zoux posted:Second question: do you really have to inject the atropine directly into your heart like in The Rock Unfortunately it's not that dramatic, just a ton of atropine by IV, or intramuscular if you only have the autoinjector. I've personally treated organophosphate poisoning before and it'd be a lot of sticks in the heart if you tried!
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Apr 11, 2022 22:27
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Dong Quixote posted:Unfortunately it's not that dramatic, just a ton of atropine by IV, or intramuscular if you only have the autoinjector. I've personally treated organophosphate poisoning before and it'd be a lot of sticks in the heart if you tried! Is the treatment still “administer atropine to tolerance” and hope for the best beyond that?
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Apr 11, 2022 22:29
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Defenestrategy posted:In case of confirmed chemical attacks by Russia, is the play as Ukraine to retaliate? I mean at worst even Ukraine probably has enough pool supply stores to be able to produce large amounts of chlorine gas and if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet about the availability or structural integrity of Russian Gas Masks. Is it distribute Mopp Gear and hope for the best? No. It’s to wait and see if Europe sees chemical weapons use as grounds for finally turning off ALL of Russians petro exports.
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Apr 11, 2022 22:29
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zoux posted:Second question: do you really have to inject the atropine directly into your heart like in The Rock The little kits they issue for randos to use is right into the leg muscle. I also accidently injected myself with one doing a class one time. It sucks.
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Apr 11, 2022 22:30
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I feel like if Ukraine used chemical weapons in reply it would just end up with mass use against their own civilians
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Apr 11, 2022 22:37
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Icon Of Sin posted:Is the treatment still “administer atropine to tolerance” and hope for the best beyond that? Doctors or medics may have to support their breathing too, but for treatment with the antidote, you keep giving atropine at a doubled dose (i.e 2mg, 4mg, 8mg, 16mg) every 5 minutes until people stop having low blood pressure, low heart rate, airway spasms, and a ton of secretions/body fluids filling up their airways and lungs. So yeah, pretty much to tolerance. The problem is, some of the organophosphates can get absorbed into your fat stores and slowly seep out and still cause toxicity, so people may have to get continual atropine infusions for days afterwards. It may not be a one-and-done treatment for people with significant exposures, especially chemical weapons designed to be very hard to treat. There's also 2-PAM, a different antidote, which works in different ways to try to get your body working correctly again, but the atropine is the life-saving part. These nerve agents can cause seizures too, so you need a 3rd medication for treatment in that case, which is a benzodiazepine like Valium. In short, if hundreds of people in Mariupol got significant doses to a nerve agent like this, it would be very hard to treat all of them. Dong Quixote fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 22:41
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Chemical weapons are only particularly effective against civilian populations. Troops spread out, bunker down, use gas masks/PPE, have access to medical care, and weather it. Civilians are much more vulnerable, don't have any resources, and die in droves.
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Apr 11, 2022 22:58
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Kaal posted:Chemical weapons are only particularly effective against civilian populations. Troops spread out, bunker down, use gas masks/PPE, have access to medical care, and weather it. Civilians are much more vulnerable, don't have any resources, and die in droves. For Russia, those facts are all upside.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:00
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:For Russia, those facts are all upside. Right, and for the Ukrainians it's all downside. The Russians also recognize that westerners aren't going to retaliate with chemical weapons regardless of what happens, and may not retaliate at all, so the deterrent effect is lessened.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Chemical weapons aren't actually that useful except in very specific circumstances that the Ukrainian army isn't that likely to want to create. It'd also be a serious loss in the diplomatic war. Confirmed Russian use would going create intense pressure on Europe to cut off oil & gas and could be a tipping point in some of the gently caress-gently caress games that third countries are playing around which side they support, but that would evaporate with a both-sides claim. I wouldn't be surprised to see more strikes within Russia, assuming they could mount the capacity, in retaliation, but it would be both tactically and strategically dumb for them to use chemical weapons even if they had them.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:15
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Dong Quixote posted:In short, if hundreds of people in Mariupol got significant doses to a nerve agent like this, it would be very hard to treat all of them. There's a "the Russians use" reply here, but it's really not funny. Especially not since I suspect it's true.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:19
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So as i think mentioned they break down over time. But what do you rely on to clear it outve an area just the wind? Or there still a chance of waltzing into a trapped pocket in a basement months later?
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Apr 11, 2022 23:24
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Defenestrategy posted:In case of confirmed chemical attacks by Russia, is the play as Ukraine to retaliate? I mean at worst even Ukraine probably has enough pool supply stores to be able to produce large amounts of chlorine gas and if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet about the availability or structural integrity of Russian Gas Masks. Is it distribute Mopp Gear and hope for the best? Chemical weapons suck as weapons. Pound for pound, good old TNT is more effective at killing combatants. If you want to sow terror, or murder large numbers of unprotected civilians, that's your chemical weapons use case. There's no benefit to Ukraine to retaliate in kind. Sentinel posted:So as i think mentioned they break down over time. But what do you rely on to clear it outve an area just the wind? it depends on the exact agent but yes, there is a risk.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:24
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CainFortea posted:I also accidently injected myself with one doing a class one time. It sucks. SSgt Huff? Edit: now that I think about it this guy Capps injected himself too. I wonder how many people have accidentally given themselves an Atropine or 2-PamChloride injection? Murgos fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 23:26
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CainFortea posted:The little kits they issue for randos to use is right into the leg muscle. Doesn't that poo poo rev up your metabolism something fierce to make your body break down the agent quicker and keep you breathing?
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Apr 11, 2022 23:44
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A.o.D. posted:Chemical weapons suck as weapons. Pound for pound, good old TNT is more effective at killing combatants. If you want to sow terror, or murder large numbers of unprotected civilians, that's your chemical weapons use case. There's no benefit to Ukraine to retaliate in kind. Persistence is variable but in the extremely potent agents is a concern that exists.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:52
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https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/1513596525775101955?t=GhY_u6YsMDVe5SdJww6onA&s=19 https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1513467102958690304?t=XwKgD1zLNTMEw5C-_JGFTQ&s=19 Two good articles from today.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:11
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Cimber posted:Doesn't that poo poo rev up your metabolism something fierce to make your body break down the agent quicker and keep you breathing? Here's how sort of how it works. The organophosphates/nerve agents block an enzyme in your nerves which breaks down a molecule that causes the target of the nerve to fire. Once the enzyme isn't working anymore, that nerve keeps firing, and the nerves that are most important in this case are the nerves causing you to make lots of fluids into your lungs, causing you to drown, and also the nerves causing your heart to slow down to dangerous levels. Atropine competes with the molecule for a spot at the receptor, and if atropine is taking up the spot, the target of the nerve won't fire. Once you get enough atropine in there, you're outcompeting the excess molecule that the nerve agent had made your body unable to break down. As a result everything dries up and your heart goes faster. An event simpler way is this: The nerve agent makes your nerves make a bunch of a molecule that keeps hitting receptors in your lungs and heart which causes you to drown from your own body fluids and your heart to slow down way too much. You need a little of it for the nerves but the nerve agent causes you to have way too much. Atropine gets into the area of the nerves and the receptors, latches on to the receptors and makes them unable to be affected by that molecule and they stop making your body dump fluids into your lungs and your heart starts to speed up again. 2-PAM, the second antidote in the DuoDote auto-injector attacks the bond between the nerve agent and enzyme in area by your nerves and your receptors that breaks down the molecule to keep it at the normal level needed to function. It's too slow on its own to save someone who is dying, so that's why you both atropine and 2-PAM with these types of nerve agents. Dong Quixote fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 00:13
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MrYenko posted:No. It’s to wait and see if Europe sees chemical weapons use as grounds for finally turning off ALL of Russians petro exports. I learned recently that ~50% of the nuclear fuel for US reactors generating electricity on the grid comes from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan (recall Rosatom and Uranium One). The industry has already asked the US to not put sanctions on fuel.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:36
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Lake of Methane posted:I learned recently that ~50% of the nuclear fuel for US reactors generating electricity on the grid comes from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan (recall Rosatom and Uranium One). Enrich your own goddamn uranium how in the hell was this industry allowed to rely on fuel from historical adversaries while Australia has uranium tumbling out of its pockets?
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Apr 12, 2022 00:53
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Carth Dookie posted:Enrich your own goddamn uranium how in the hell was this industry allowed to rely on fuel from historical adversaries while Australia has uranium tumbling out of its pockets? A lot of the USA's economic interactions with Russia over the past 30 years have been a Jobs/Economic stimulus project for Russia. Also, the US, and Canada have useful uranium deposits. We don't have to go as far as Australia if we don't want to.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:55
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Name me a more "I'm a general trying to be Tom Friedman" anecdote https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres-what-i-saw-in-the-russian-and-ukrainian-armies/ quote:Over the course of nearly four decades, I spent a lot of time either engaging or working with the two armies now engaged in a bitter struggle in Ukraine. I met their leaders, observed their maneuvers, and watched their development closely either up close or through reading intelligence reports. Strangely, one memory that stands out had more to do with trumpets and rim-shots than tanks and rifles. quote:
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Apr 12, 2022 00:55
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GD_American posted:Name me a more "I'm a general trying to be Tom Friedman" anecdote When you look behind the curtain enough and see similar patterns again and again that poo poo starts to stand out and make an impression.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:08
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Lake of Methane posted:I learned recently that ~50% of the nuclear fuel for US reactors generating electricity on the grid comes from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan (recall Rosatom and Uranium One). Elliott Lake's mayor just got a hard-on.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:20
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Please just let me keep pretending this is a Russian performance https://youtu.be/-OxK4lPRoww
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Apr 12, 2022 02:25
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Dong Quixote posted:Chlorine isn't a very effective chemical weapon. I have no idea if the Ukraine had a chemical weapons program, but even if they wanted to use them, you need specialized equipment for most of them to disperse the agents effectively. Seems like that capability would be pretty hard to stand up in the middle of a war. It’s just Ukraine.
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Apr 12, 2022 03:40
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How much would it cost to get Russia word filtered to The Russia?
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Apr 12, 2022 03:52
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Are we still allowed to post editorial hot takes?
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Apr 12, 2022 04:05
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If they’re entertaining.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:11
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Dong Quixote posted:Here's how sort of how it works. The organophosphates/nerve agents block an enzyme in your nerves which breaks down a molecule that causes the target of the nerve to fire. Once the enzyme isn't working anymore, that nerve keeps firing, and the nerves that are most important in this case are the nerves causing you to make lots of fluids into your lungs, causing you to drown, and also the nerves causing your heart to slow down to dangerous levels. Atropine competes with the molecule for a spot at the receptor, and if atropine is taking up the spot, the target of the nerve won't fire. Once you get enough atropine in there, you're outcompeting the excess molecule that the nerve agent had made your body unable to break down. As a result everything dries up and your heart goes faster. You forgot the catastrophic full-body muscle seizures that can break bones and lock you up so hard you can't breathe, even if you aren't already drowning in your own drool. My first reflex for a real no-poo poo confirmed exposure to a modern nerve agent would be going for my sidearm, not my mask. I learned way, way too much poo poo about "treating" CBRNE attacks as a medic to ever want to go out like that. Probably the only thing off the top of my head that might actually be worse than playing dig for buried treasure as I put up camp in the Chernobyl forests for a month.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:16
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More infuriating. Just your standard issue moronic UKRAINE'S NEO-NAZIS AND NATO STARTED THIS WAR crap.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:17
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