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DeliciousPatriotism posted:Can you or anyone else explain how guided artillery works? At least loosely? I know precision is about as useful as the quality of the information fed to a fire control system (and that actual precision in operation varies) but I'm not sure how target information is fed to make these so accurate. GPS data? Visual marking? Just quality mapping? Super skilled visual guidance? No clue. There's been a bunch of answers already but I want to try to add some context and possibly clarification. The basic way unguided artillery works is that some guy with a radio (the forward observer) sees a target he wants gone, so he starts out by looking at a map and figures out where he is and where the target is (using for example a rangefinder of some sort and a compass). Then he calls up his friendly neighborhood fire support and asks for a fire mission at the target's coordinates. The artillery battery in turn has already determined precisely where its own guns are located, so it figures out how far away the target is and in which direction. Then someone does a bunch of ballistics calculations, and using data points such as air pressure and temperature, wind, propellant temperature, the altitude of the target and the altitude of the guns, the influence of the rotation of the earth (Coriolis force), and other factors, they calculate exactly how to aim the guns. This someone is usually a computer these days; before the 1970's or so you had to do these calculations by hand using various special tools and pre-calculated ballistic tables. Then, the guns fire a couple of rounds, and the artillery radios the forward observer back when he should expect the shells to land ("splash"). The forward observer observes (duh) the impacts, and since ballistics calculations are an uncertain business, the impacts will usually be off by some distance from the intended aim point. He radios back a correction, the artillery battery dials this correction in, and then fires for effect. If there's a rush, or if you're particularly certain about the local conditions, the correction step can be skipped. Now, in the exciting world of guided artillery, most of this procedure is the same - you've got the observer (which is frequently a drone now), the artillery battery, the coordinates and the ballistics calculations still. What the guided rounds can do for you depends on the system, though, and here there are a few different operational principles that solve fundamentally different problems. First we have the US solution, the M982 Excalibur, which relies on internal guidance. This is a very American system, and by that I mean it's really overengineered, extremely expensive and very focused on avoiding friendly fire. In its original form, it completely removes the need for correcting fire by adding GPS and inertial guidance to each shell, so in addition to knowing where the target is and where the guns are, the shell also knows where it is for its entire flight, and it has controllable fins so it can guide itself to precisely the intended coordinates. That means you can use it to hit things very close to friendly troops without risking uncorrected shells landing on top of them, and if you're sure there's a target at some specific coordinates you can be absolutely sure you hit those coordinates without any forward observer at all. The downside is that the coordinates are programmed into the round before it is fired, and since the flight time at long range alone can be over a minute, the target might've moved by the time the shell lands. Then there's things like this Ukrainian system, Kvitnyk, which relies on laser guidance (some Excalibur versions also have this, and there's also an older US round called the M712 Copperhead that uses the same principle - that one's been around since the 1970's). AFAIK Kvitnyk does not have internal guidance, so you still have to rely on ballistics calculations to get it to go close-ish to the target. To get the guidance, the forward observer has to point a laser at the intended target, and the shell's guidance system looks for the laser dot and goes for it. Downsides are that you need the observer for the accuracy and they have to point a laser that might potentially be detectable, and it's somewhat harder to use if there's low cloud cover (Copperhead could compensate for that by using a different trajectory in the terminal phase; presumably Kvitnyk can do something similar). Upsides are the shell is probably a lot cheaper than M982, and you have some ability to track a moving target. Finally there's a third category of systems, the ones relying on autonomous terminal guidance, alternately referred to as "sensor fuzed". The general idea here is that instead of the forward observer painting the target with a laser, the round has some kind of seeker head that can identify targets on its own in the terminal phase of its flight. There's a couple of these from different countries and in different sizes - AFAIK the oldest and smallest one is the Swedish 12 cm pansarsprängvinggranat m/94 slutfasstyrd (psvinggr m/94 SLUFA for short, or Strix in international parlance), which is a 12 cm mortar round that slows down its final phase of flight with some winglets, and then uses an imaging IR seeker to identify targets that look like armored vehicles, which it directs itself towards. The warhead is an EFP (explosively formed projectile) intended to punch through tank roofs, so it's very similar to an NLAW except fired out of a mortar tube and with a range of about 8 km instead of 800 meters. It was intended to be used against Soviet tank columns in the Swedish far north at the tail end of the Cold War, but came too late and only entered service in 1994. There's also a Swedish-French 155mm version called BONUS which has two warheads per shell, and a German one called SMArt 155 that uses a very similar principle. Upside here is that you really don't need a forward observer at all, much like the internal guidance systems, or at least not one that needs to reveal themselves, and you can hit moving targets. The downside is that you can only hit things the seeker has been programmed to see as targets, so armored vehicles, and these systems don't really work in poor weather conditions. Hope these  were of interest to someone.
TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 00:01
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Sorry if this was already covered, but is it true that the Slovakian S300s got blown up by the Russians?
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Apr 12, 2022 00:09
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Grouchio posted:The greco-scythian Bosporan Kingdom was a Roman client state until the Goths conquered them. Client state, not part of the empire; and the people we consider Russians barely had agriculture during the classical period. There is zero historical or cultural connection between the Roman Empire and the Russian state. It’s always been a rather odd claim by the Russian Tsars that they were the inheritors of Rome; however that bullshit claim is also why Russia has had a hardon for Istanbul/Constantinople forever.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:11
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Eric Cantonese posted:Sorry if this was already covered, but is it true that the Slovakian S300s got blown up by the Russians? Russia says yes, everyone else says no. So I'd go with probably untrue.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:13
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mobby_6kl posted:The shell knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the shell from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. Whenever I read this I hear it in John Cleese's voice.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:14
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ZombieLenin posted:Client state, not part of the empire; and the people we consider Russians barely had agriculture during the classical period. It was religious/cultural, actually pretty simple. Russians had roughly the same connection to Greece as Germans had to Latin Rome. Northern tribes Christianized by a bunch of pillar having toga people on the Mediterranean. Except on different sides of a schism.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:16
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ZombieLenin posted:Client state, not part of the empire; and the people we consider Russians barely had agriculture during the classical period. Eh that depends on how you look at it. The eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453 and shared their brand of Christianity with the Russian state, I would argue religion is a fairly big part of a nations culture. So when the second Rome (Constantinople) fell, they could declare themselves the third. 
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Apr 12, 2022 00:22
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ZombieLenin posted:Client state, not part of the empire; and the people we consider Russians barely had agriculture during the classical period. The Cyrillic alphabet is called Cyrillic after Saint Cyril, a Byzantine missionary who created... well, not Cyrillic, but the glagolitic alphabet, which was used to write the first Slavic literary language (Old Church Slavonic). The Grand Duchy of Moscow had pretty close ties to the Byzantines in the middle ages, and the claim of Moscow as the "Third Rome" specifically comes from Ivan III, Grand Prince of Moscow, who married a niece of the last Byzantine emperor some 20 years after the fall of Constantinople, and was the first to call himself "tsar". The Russian Orthodox Church however effectively became a state church in the 1600's and Peter the Great abolished the patriarchy in the early 1700's.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:51
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Has anybody got another source re the chemical attack? Only reporting I can find so far is coming from Azov Battalion. Not saying it didn't happen, but it would be good to find a more trustworthy source. https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1513602545025011715
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Apr 12, 2022 00:53
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Atreiden posted:Eh that depends on how you look at it. The eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453 and shared their brand of Christianity with the Russian state, I would argue religion is a fairly big part of a nations culture. So when the second Rome (Constantinople) fell, they could declare themselves the third. Hmm well the Ottomans claimed succession to the Roman Empire upon taking Constantinople, so maybe it was only after 1922 that Russia inherited it. And let's not forget about the Holy Roman Empire.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:55
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on dutch tv some analyst said that while the western weapons were effective against the russians the west has already sent a majority of the weapons that it can easily send (javelins and so on) to ukraine and is now running low on them. is this true and how quickly can they make more of them?
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Apr 12, 2022 00:56
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Shibawanko posted:on dutch tv some analyst said that while the western weapons were effective against the russians the west has already sent a majority of the weapons that it can easily send (javelins and so on) to ukraine and is now running low on them. is this true and how quickly can they make more of them? many EU governments had, uh, low stockpiles the united states does not really have this problem. the solution is that the united states picks up the slack.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:59
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Atreiden posted:Eh that depends on how you look at it. The eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453 and shared their brand of Christianity with the Russian state, I would argue religion is a fairly big part of a nations culture. So when the second Rome (Constantinople) fell, they could declare themselves the third. The Kievan Rus, you mean? When you think about it the Ukrainians are the real inheritors of the Roman Empire.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:03
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Count Roland posted:Hmm well the Ottomans claimed succession to the Roman Empire upon taking Constantinople, so maybe it was only after 1922 that Russia inherited it. We best forget the Kayser-i Rûm or Erdogan might get ideas, as for the HRE it was neither Holy nor Roman, nor an Empire and all that.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:04
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evilweasel posted:many EU governments had, uh, low stockpiles depending on the weapon, we actually do have this problem. we have sent half the javelins produced in the last decade already. the actual stockpile number is classified, but at some point we will run through it unless we can significantly increase production very soon. ukraine is burning through these things at a crazy rate. Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 01:10
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Concerned Citizen posted:depending on the weapon, we actually do have this problem. we have sent half the javelins produced in the last decade already. the actual stockpile number is classified, but at some point we will run it unless we can significantly increase production very soon. ukraine is burning through these things at a crazy rate. yeah this is exactly what the guy said, that the american stockpile of javelins was already halved, and that producing more in the short term would be very difficult. i dunno if there are alternatives that can be made and sent to ukraine but it sounded concerning
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Apr 12, 2022 01:13
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Map Update, high confidence due to Kadyrov's helpful video of the Russian control maps from earlier in the day  https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1513671235330314242?s=20&t=W-gjQtc7day-wUl3RFonFg https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1513671243538604043?s=20&t=W-gjQtc7day-wUl3RFonFg Video: https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1513425204978008064?s=20&t=W-gjQtc7day-wUl3RFonFg
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Apr 12, 2022 01:18
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Nazi convoy coming from rostov. The Russian state is announcing a heightened awareness for terrorist activities in the border regions. Which is particularly interesting seeing as this announcement comes a day after a major Russian convoy containing thousands of troops apparently got smoked. I wonder what this partisan activity includes. I mean even reporting a convoy on a road at a certain time gives the ukrainians and idea of when that convoy will arrive at certain areas.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:25
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This is interesting, anyway. From here, a Boeing C32-B is approaching the UK from its origination in New Jersey. Why is that interesting? "Wikipedia posted:Little is known of the activities of the secretive C-32B, whose existence is not widely acknowledged by the Air Force.[5] Outfitted for utility rather than luxury, the heavily modified aircraft were acquired to support the U.S. State Department's Foreign Emergency Support Team, and have ties to special operations, and the U.S. Intelligence Community. It will be interesting to see where it goes, or if it turns off its transponder at some point and just disappears.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:37
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Deteriorata posted:This is interesting, anyway. what do you think its about? the possible chemical attack.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:42
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TheFluff posted:
This was a very good and informative post and much appreciated
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Apr 12, 2022 01:46
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Dapper_Swindler posted:what do you think its about? the possible chemical attack. I haven't a clue. Looks like it is rather boringly landing in Belfast, so its ultimate destination is still a mystery.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:11
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Wait till you learn about who used to be the head of F1... That said, I don't see how a rich 16 year old twerp doing a italian fascist salute during the italian anthem is related to the war in Ukraine. GABA ghoul posted:IIRC the Nazis didn't use chemical weapons in warfare because they believed the Brits had much bigger CW stocks and and would drown them in that poo poo in response. It wasn't out of the Nazis' love for humanity. If they hadn't been afraid of retaliation they would have used them. The Nazis did you chemical weapons, including to flush out the defenders of Odesa once the city had fallen. Atreiden posted:Eh that depends on how you look at it. The eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453 and shared their brand of Christianity with the Russian state, I would argue religion is a fairly big part of a nations culture. So when the second Rome (Constantinople) fell, they could declare themselves the third. Claim is also based of marriage of vladimir svatoslavich to princess anna porphyrogenita Lead out in cuffs posted:The Kievan Rus, you mean? you mean swedes? local drevlians were not part of rurikid clan. if you want to say put a national lens over a part of history where it doesnt belong. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 02:29
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Deteriorata posted:I haven't a clue. Looks like it is rather boringly landing in Belfast, so its ultimate destination is still a mystery. The CIA pulling some old Provo boyos out of retirement for one last job in Ukraine like they're The Expendables would be pretty funny
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Apr 12, 2022 02:32
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Dapper_Swindler posted:what do you think its about? the possible chemical attack. My thoroughly unqualified guess is that the most likely explanations are in order of decreasing likelihood: -some planned training exercise or other routine things -support for something going on in Ukraine where the US is providing intel or guidance -the US has secret squirrel poo poo going on on the ground in Ukraine and we managed to spot it Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 02:35
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Failed Imagineer posted:The CIA pulling some old Provo boyos out of retirement for one last job in Ukraine like they're The Expendables would be pretty funny Come out ye brown and reds.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:46
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Grape posted:Come out ye brown and reds. 
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Apr 12, 2022 02:54
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Dapper_Swindler posted:what do you think its about? the possible chemical attack. It's plausible if one believes Putin wishes that a NATO engagement will strengthen him domestically. It's implausible if one believes Putin wishes to avoid NATO engagement. Making a fortress of an industrial plant could plausibly be unhealthy and induce respiratory symptoms. Lot of plausibles, insufficient info. Ukraine's inability to break the siege suggests they are not as strong on the ground as we might wish. Liberating the city would bring a sizable morale benefit. Yet they are unable. Do they need more time to enlarge their forces with additional armor? It's a weakness that needs to be addressed by the West and rather soon.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:57
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TheFluff posted:Hope these Just wanna say this was absolutely fascinating and thank you for explaining this!
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Apr 12, 2022 03:11
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Seth Pecksniff posted:Just wanna say this was absolutely fascinating and thank you for explaining this! The swedish 155mm double shot is called BONUS. Yikes
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Apr 12, 2022 03:14
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Shibawanko posted:yeah this is exactly what the guy said, that the american stockpile of javelins was already halved, and that producing more in the short term would be very difficult. i dunno if there are alternatives that can be made and sent to ukraine but it sounded concerning Yeah, but the Russian problems with supply are as bad or worse in just about all cases.
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Apr 12, 2022 03:19
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TheFluff posted:Hope these , friend.
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Apr 12, 2022 03:25
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The swedish 155mm double shot is called BONUS. Should have been BOGO. Edit: There's an IKEA joke here and I can't find it.
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Apr 12, 2022 03:28
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Shibawanko posted:yeah this is exactly what the guy said, that the american stockpile of javelins was already halved, and that producing more in the short term would be very difficult. i dunno if there are alternatives that can be made and sent to ukraine but it sounded concerning Alternatives would be: depleted uranium anti material rifles, depleted uranium 115mm rounds for the t-72s. More t72s, switchblades, I guess AT-4s are probably viable versus Russia's poo poo tank. Also if we gave Ukraine LRBMs so they could destroy Russian oil refineries.(the joke here is that its hard to kill tanks and killing their fuel is a better bet) javelins have drastically changed that but losing them is going to be sub optimal. A tank killing a tank is a simple process. Russia does have "good tank country" as a benefit for the coming assaults. But that could mean they will end up putting these tanks forward of infantry Again and get them all arty'd to death or javelin'd Now with the switchblades whole tank columns I do remember shooting what I believe is rusted out t-72 on BCT with an AT4. Fun times. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 03:47
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The swedish 155mm double shot is called BONUS. paging the thread for posts that sound like porn but aren't
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Apr 12, 2022 04:04
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the popes toes posted:It's plausible if one believes Putin wishes that a NATO engagement will strengthen him domestically. What? Am I missing a joke or something? None of what you're saying has anything to do with the question. And to the contrary the ability of the defenders of Mariupol to hold out until now when they were widely expected to have fallen a week or more ago shows their strength and the weakness of the Russian effort, not the opposite. This is delusional (again, unless you are making a joke I am not parsing.)
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Apr 12, 2022 04:09
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https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1513689848602935297
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Apr 12, 2022 04:10
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.  
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Apr 12, 2022 04:12
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Shibawanko posted:yeah this is exactly what the guy said, that the american stockpile of javelins was already halved, and that producing more in the short term would be very difficult. i dunno if there are alternatives that can be made and sent to ukraine but it sounded concerning I mean you just send them all the Javelins. We'll never need them in the same way, what with having a devastatingly powerful air force and navy. There's pretty much nothing that could happen in the next year or so that would require us to have a bunch of Javelins on hand. For us they are neat, for them they are essential. Even at the current pace we could easy give them another month or three of Javelins as people start giving them heavier equipment. It's not yet a problem, but is a thing to keep an eye on so it doesn't become a problem down the road.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:12
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https://twitter.com/charlie_savage/status/1513478733675573249?s=21&t=km1bPwDclYQMDVx8f8X1dg
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