Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

big scary monsters posted:

Is the title drawing a comparison between middle managers and the supposed behaviour of wolves/lions/some other romanticised apex predator?
Apex predators do tend to spend a lot of time asleep and eat their own poo.


e: Fiat 124

Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Apr 15, 2022

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

Corgis love bread. And Puro


Mebh posted:

Has anyone read the leadership book "leaders eat last"? I've been given it to read for work and I'm really struggling to get through it. The first chapter goes on about how awesome the Marines are... the second chapter has an anecdotal story about gunning down the taliban with an A-10 in Afghanistan.

Is this just to get lovely chuddy managers to read it? I'm told it gets better and I mean the third chapter is "Employees are people too!" but it's like... fucksake. I've just finished a podcast on Henry Kissinger and Nixon and all the poo poo they got up to over the years and I really can't stomach any "hoorah America" right now.

I'd suggest telling whoever wants you to read it that you'll read it if they read Conquest of Bread or depending how much you hate them, Capital

Dead Goon
Dec 13, 2002

No Obvious Flaws



I was reading something on Reddit (I know, I know) yesterday and a person, presumably from Rwanda was very upset that the only thing people know about the country is the horrific genocide. Oh, and someone else was saying a authoritarian police state isn't that bad.

Mebh
May 10, 2010


Part of "leadership training" for work. Basically getting all the leads and prospective leads to read a series of books and then chat about them. Sadly nobody has time so it's been 6 months and no progress. Not to mention the books are shite.

From what I can glean the book is not so much trying to tell me apex predators etc, but trust your "men" under you, give them autonomy and provide them what they need. The message is decent but the wrapping is entirely for chuddy lovely managers not folks that know anything about history or well, are essentially pro union/labour and politically astute. I guess a book like that would be written off as woke drivel and never sell which is the problem.

In fact the book has lots of terrible reviews from multiple political perspectives (right wing people hate it as the overall message is 'be nice to your workers', left wing people hate it as it's wrapped up in OO RAH bullshit and psychological pseudoscience to try and feed it to right wing people)

The person best in charge of my chance at promotion right now unfortunately seems to loving love it.

I read the summary here https://readingraphics.com/book-summary-leaders-eat-last/#:~:text=In%20Leaders%20Eat%20Last%2C%20Simon,can%20become%20a%20true%20leader. which I broadly agree with.

This review seems to sum it up best I think as he starts going on about oxytocin and seratonin poo poo which I've had enough of with the emotions and Pixar talks we've been forced to endure in the narrative games industry the last few years.

quote:

I read the first seven chapters. I just couldn't finish it. Sinek has some really good points mixed in with pseudo-science and weird assumptions. The chapters should be titled:

1: OOO RAH
2: Don't be a dick
3: Condescension
4: Obvious AND oblivious
5: My theories of Anthropology
6: My theories of Biology
7: Go Team!

Mebh fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Apr 15, 2022

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-

Guavanaut posted:

Apex predators do tend to spend a lot of time asleep and eat their own poo.

Please do not reveal the premise of my forthcoming self help book.

Also do not reveal the title of my new career help book, "Tapeworm Mindset: Worming Your Way to the Top From The Inside", available now in hardback for only £29.99 at all good booksellers.

big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Apr 15, 2022

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

Corgis love bread. And Puro


Feeling pretty smug that I will never ever be thought of as managerial material

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

Mebh posted:

I guess a book like that would be written off as woke drivel and never sell which is the problem.
Humankind has sold pretty well. It's a bit soft left in parts but brings receipts against a bunch of rugged individualist talking points and basically does Kropotkin's Mutual Aid but for management types.

big scary monsters posted:

Please do not reveal the premise of my forthcoming self help book.

Also do not reveal the title of my new career help book, "Tapeworm Mindest: Worming Your Way to the Top From The Inside", available now in hardback for only £29.99 at all good booksellers.
Always encyst on excellence.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

Mebh posted:

Part of "leadership training" for work. Basically getting all the leads and prospective leads to read a series of books and then chat about them. Sadly nobody has time so it's been 6 months and no progress. Not to mention the books are shite.

From what I can glean the book is not so much trying to tell me apex predators etc, but trust your "men" under you, give them autonomy and provide them what they need. The message is decent but the wrapping is entirely for chuddy lovely managers not folks that know anything about history or well, are essentially pro union/labour and politically astute. I guess a book like that would be written off as woke drivel and never sell which is the problem.

In fact the book has lots of terrible reviews from multiple political perspectives (right wing people hate it as the overall message is 'be nice to your workers', left wing people hate it as it's wrapped up in OO RAH bullshit and psychological pseudoscience to try and feed it to right wing people)

The person best in charge of my chance at promotion right now unfortunately seems to loving love it.

I read the summary here https://readingraphics.com/book-summary-leaders-eat-last/#:~:text=In%20Leaders%20Eat%20Last%2C%20Simon,can%20become%20a%20true%20leader. which I broadly agree with.

This review seems to sum it up best I think as he starts going on about oxytocin and seratonin poo poo which I've had enough of with the emotions and Pixar talks we've been forced to endure in the narrative games industry the last few years.

Oh its this fucker: https://youtu.be/hER0Qp6QJNU

BalloonFish
Jun 30, 2013



Fun Shoe

Mega Comrade posted:

I can't help but feel this is gonna be u-turned and its all a way to distract from party gate.

But that might be just my wishful thinking.

Nah, it'll be pushed on until either the Nationality & Borders Bill gets kyboshed or the whole Rwanda scheme gets snarled up in legal appeals, then it can be u-turned while blaming Activist Lawyers, Woke Elites, Jack Monroe and anyone else they want to target. CON (+12)

And yes, I agree with those saying that trying to combat this with "think about the cost and practicalities!" rhetoric will just lead to more efficient concentration camps and no moral high ground to fight from.

big scary monsters posted:

Is the title drawing a comparison between middle managers and the supposed behaviour of wolves/lions/some other romanticised apex predator? If so you could already tell it was bullshit right there.

"Leaders eat Last" is a basic principle hammered out in military officer training, the point being that you take care of your team's needs above your own because that's what your unit's effectiveness relies on. The guys' job is to do the task, your job is to enable them to do it. Don't eat until you've ensured everyone else will have a meal, don't go into your tent until everyone else's tents are sorted. Be the first awake and the last to go to sleep, that sort of thing.

Of course it's a broad principle, not a strict rule and every cohort has a couple of cadets or subalterns who can be ineffective leaders with terrible interpersonal skills but will think they're the next Slim or Nelson because they make a show of literally eating last.

And any book on leadership that includes Oorah Marines stuff or descriptions of warcrimes and doesn't use them as a lesson of how not to do it isn't worth reading.

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-

Guavanaut posted:

Always encyst on excellence.
:golfclap:

BalloonFish posted:

"Leaders eat Last" is a basic principle hammered out in military officer training, the point being that you take care of your team's needs above your own because that's what your unit's effectiveness relies on. The guys' job is to do the task, your job is to enable them to do it. Don't eat until you've ensured everyone else will have a meal, don't go into your tent until everyone else's tents are sorted. Be the first awake and the last to go to sleep, that sort of thing.
Thanks, seems a broadly reasonable point then. It just sounded like the classic "this is what I've misunderstood from animal behaviour, here's how it applies to humans in exactly the same way". I forgot about the other type of management book, "your workplace is the same as the military".

big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Apr 15, 2022

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

Corgis love bread. And Puro


If you're not willing to warcrime with your team are you really able to manage a team of computer touchers?

TACD
Oct 27, 2000

smugly owning the fash by laying out my superior plan for eliminating all asylum seekers

radmonger
Jun 6, 2011

Lord of the Llamas posted:

There was a bunch of polling on this that basically showed that retired people were way more likely to accept people being worse off (even family members) because of brexit as a price worth paying. Pure coincidence it was them who were least likely to be worse off I'm sure.



‘People being better off’ basically means wages are higher. Contrast with ‘the economy growing’ which means house prices are higher. If you are a net consumer of labour and owner of assets, the former is bad, and the latter good. Most registered voters in the UK are such net consumers, so there will always be a level of electoral support for such deliberate mass impoverishment

Mebh
May 10, 2010


Yeah I figured as much.

I mean look at this poo poo. It's like a bad novel.

Leaders Eat Last - Hoorah Chapter posted:

Johnny Bravo had developed a way to help him relate to the men on the ground. To feel what they feel. During every training exercise, while flying above the battlefield, he would always replay in his mind the scene from the movie Saving Private Ryan when the Allies stormed the beaches of Normandy. He would picture the ramp of a Higgins boat dropping down, the men running onto the beach into a wall of German gunfire. The bullets whizzing past them. The pings of stray shots hitting the steel hulls of the boats. The cries of men hit. Johnny Bravo had trained himself to imagine that was the scene playing out below every time he heard "Troops in contact." With those images vividly embossed in his mind, Johnny Bravo reacted to the call for assistance.

The book then describes him descending through the clouds, firing blindly into the treeline while praying he doesn't hit his own men and calling all the other A10s to do the same multiple times. As a good leader does.

And that little Johnny is how you become a manager!

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
That is the dumbest series of things I have read all day "I learned to treat war as a Hollywood movie!" is not saying the things you thing it is my friend!

BalloonFish
Jun 30, 2013



Fun Shoe

Mebh posted:

Yeah I figured as much.

I mean look at this poo poo. It's like a bad novel.

The book then describes him descending through the clouds, firing blindly into the treeline while praying he doesn't hit his own men and calling all the other A10s to do the same multiple times. As a good leader does.

And that little Johnny is how you become a manager!



Excellent. As well as "I can only relate to other people - especially Poor Bloody Infantry - through the medium of Hollywood movies" there's "While flying an aircraft carrying bombs, missiles and a chain gun capable of delivering 3900 rounds per minute, I visualise that I'm in an entirely different tactical situation with entirely different terms of engagement."

A True Leader of Men.

Actual modern military leadership training, especially at a 'junior management' level is really 'soft' and full of 'woke' stuff like letting subject-matter experts lead tasks even if they're of a lower rank than you, that people who actually respect you and feel invested in their work and task will perform better than drones just begrudgingly following bawled orders because they have to, challenging accepted notions, working collectively, a unit is only as strong as its weakest member, encouraging personal growth and skills development etc. - stuff that's really obvious to anyone with any empathy for or interest in people and effectively leading them, but which is often absent from people who write military-themed leadership guides aimed at civilian businesses and whose author bios start "After serving in the CCF and two years in the Blues & Royals under an Army Officer Internship, followed by a successful career at PriceWaterhouseCoopers..."

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal
Possibly the only silver lining from the awful mess in Ukraine is that the fascists and Telegraph journalists (but I repeat...) who spent years going on about how Russia army stronk manly shouty no gender crush weak woke west have curiously all gone quiet now that that kind of bravado and overconfidence and lack of honest communication has been demonstrated in the field.

(Also I assume in the case of a few journos because their second income dried up.)

Only Kindness
Oct 12, 2016

Mebh posted:

[...] the emotions and Pixar talks we've been forced to endure in the narrative games industry the last few years.
Speak on that, would you mind? All I can find googling this is that D*sney is "opening their vault of world-famous IP to studios of all sizes"?

Lord of the Llamas
Jul 9, 2002

EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Mega Comrade posted:

I can't help but feel this is gonna be u-turned and its all a way to distract from party gate.

But that might be just my wishful thinking.

It's the product of months of negotiations. It's not a dead cat. It's what the Tories actually want to do. Fortunately it's probably not going to happen.

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

Dead Goon posted:

I was reading something on Reddit (I know, I know) yesterday and a person, presumably from Rwanda was very upset that the only thing people know about the country is the horrific genocide. Oh, and someone else was saying a authoritarian police state isn't that bad.
I will admit I don't know much about Rwanda apart from the associations with the word 'genocide' and accusations of people trafficking on twitter. It would be nice to have some specifics about why it's a particularly terrible place to send people - apart obviously from the fact that the home office's rampant racism in refusing claims means shipping British people halfway round the world when they fill in a form wrong or the home office loses their paperwork.

Or for just being autistic:

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1338147565813047299?t=KdPRy5pYECDGQ30b6KZSbQ&s=19

Miftan
Mar 31, 2012

Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Mebh posted:

Part of "leadership training" for work. Basically getting all the leads and prospective leads to read a series of books and then chat about them. Sadly nobody has time so it's been 6 months and no progress. Not to mention the books are shite.

From what I can glean the book is not so much trying to tell me apex predators etc, but trust your "men" under you, give them autonomy and provide them what they need. The message is decent but the wrapping is entirely for chuddy lovely managers not folks that know anything about history or well, are essentially pro union/labour and politically astute. I guess a book like that would be written off as woke drivel and never sell which is the problem.

In fact the book has lots of terrible reviews from multiple political perspectives (right wing people hate it as the overall message is 'be nice to your workers', left wing people hate it as it's wrapped up in OO RAH bullshit and psychological pseudoscience to try and feed it to right wing people)

The person best in charge of my chance at promotion right now unfortunately seems to loving love it.

I read the summary here https://readingraphics.com/book-summary-leaders-eat-last/#:~:text=In%20Leaders%20Eat%20Last%2C%20Simon,can%20become%20a%20true%20leader. which I broadly agree with.

This review seems to sum it up best I think as he starts going on about oxytocin and seratonin poo poo which I've had enough of with the emotions and Pixar talks we've been forced to endure in the narrative games industry the last few years.

Sinek is an idiot who floats between really obvious truisms and weird poo poo he pulled out of his rear end and wraps it all up in a very modern presentation and confidence so people don't question it as much, but I've never read/heard anything from him that wasn't SUPER obvious or really needed some citations.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Guavanaut posted:

Possibly the only silver lining from the awful mess in Ukraine is that the fascists and Telegraph journalists (but I repeat...) who spent years going on about how Russia army stronk manly shouty no gender crush weak woke west have curiously all gone quiet now that that kind of bravado and overconfidence and lack of honest communication has been demonstrated in the field.

(Also I assume in the case of a few journos because their second income dried up.)

They've seamlessly switched to bigging up the Azov Battalion and the rest of Ukraine's neo-Nazi movement while helping them advertise themselves as a recruitment and training hub for the European far right, unfortunately.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

I will admit I don't know much about Rwanda apart from the associations with the word 'genocide' and accusations of people trafficking on twitter. It would be nice to have some specifics about why it's a particularly terrible place to send people - apart obviously from the fact that the home office's rampant racism in refusing claims means shipping British people halfway round the world when they fill in a form wrong or the home office loses their paperwork.

Or for just being autistic:

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1338147565813047299?t=KdPRy5pYECDGQ30b6KZSbQ&s=19

The UK's scheme is modelled on a recent Israeli one, where all the refugees relocated to Rwanda immediately had all their documents confiscated by the local authorities and were left to fend for themselves.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!






big scary monsters posted:

I'm sure you already know the answer to that one, but if not get yourself a brown paper bag and run a quick self-comparison.

You'd think that working age "economic migrants" are exactly what a country that has huge labour shortages in multiple critical sectors would want. But racism is more important.

I misspent my university days getting a degree in classical and modern Chinese, and what stands out from warring states period China (when Confucius was knocking around, more or less) is how desperate every state is to increase its population by any means possible, because that’s the best guarantee that you’ll be prosperous and your neighbours won’t invade you.

Fast forward to 2022 and you have lots of countries desperate to keep their populations as small as possible. It’s wild.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Guavanaut posted:

Possibly the only silver lining from the awful mess in Ukraine is that the fascists and Telegraph journalists (but I repeat...) who spent years going on about how Russia army stronk manly shouty no gender crush weak woke west have curiously all gone quiet now that that kind of bravado and overconfidence and lack of honest communication has been demonstrated in the field.

(Also I assume in the case of a few journos because their second income dried up.)

I am sure the legions of spetznaz are going to backflip their way into the ukrainian lines and throw knives at them any day now.

E: oh also I want to get something to drop off at the hospital for the people who looked after me, anyone know what they're allowed? Was gonna get a card and a couple of big bags of quality street or something?

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Apr 15, 2022

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

https://twitter.com/Aussie_Legend/status/1514965130731491329?t=1fn-yF0CWFBAv0AEIZ-8lg&s=19

Mebh
May 10, 2010


Only Kindness posted:

Speak on that, would you mind? All I can find googling this is that D*sney is "opening their vault of world-famous IP to studios of all sizes"?

Essentially Matthew Luhn who worked as an animator on the Simpsons and later Toy Story does a speaking talk you can hire him out for on narrative and emotional design where its all about alternating happy/sad to stimulate oxytocin and serotonin to create emotional moments like the beginning of Up.

Multiple companies where I worked at either hired him to speak at vast expense or made us watch all his talks and treated it as gospel... Except they never used it, because to create those moments there's an element of risk by making something sad or upsetting.

To then hear it discussed again like its some hormone based trick to management just made me want to walk into the sea.

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal
So it generated a powerful emotional reaction then? :v:

Ash Crimson
Apr 4, 2010

staggeringly, philip schofield is gay

happyhippy
Feb 21, 2005

Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup
Pillbug

Ash Crimson posted:

staggeringly, philip schofield is gay

Gordon the Gopher's shocking reveal all book

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

Corgis love bread. And Puro


https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1515001527584309256?s=20&t=YkmWH000nZ7vNZPa7TUOXw

Jewdas continue to be great

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Still think it was great bantz when jez went

Only Kindness
Oct 12, 2016

Mebh posted:

Essentially Matthew Luhn who worked as an animator on the Simpsons and later Toy Story does a speaking talk you can hire him out for on narrative and emotional design where its all about alternating happy/sad to stimulate oxytocin and serotonin to create emotional moments like the beginning of Up.

Thanks for this. Starts to explain a lot about the undercut-a-poignant-moment-with-a-lovely-joke "content" we do get.


Anyway, more generally, passing on some advice from G*mers, vibeo gaems should do the following to be better:

1. More based
2. Less cringe, bro
3. No w*men (because of cringe, see 2), unless they make pp hard (this is important)
4. If you :rolleyes: must :rolleyes: have w*men (because of all the sjws), no peach fuzz

Scikar
Nov 20, 2005

5? Seriously?

Mebh posted:

Part of "leadership training" for work. Basically getting all the leads and prospective leads to read a series of books and then chat about them. Sadly nobody has time so it's been 6 months and no progress. Not to mention the books are shite.

From what I can glean the book is not so much trying to tell me apex predators etc, but trust your "men" under you, give them autonomy and provide them what they need. The message is decent but the wrapping is entirely for chuddy lovely managers not folks that know anything about history or well, are essentially pro union/labour and politically astute. I guess a book like that would be written off as woke drivel and never sell which is the problem.

This sounds like a poo poo version of Turn The Ship Around? Which is funny because Sinek is quoted in the headline review for that book. I haven't read either of them personally, but TTSA was recommended to me by someone who legit massively improved the management culture at my former workplace. He was ex-military though so I'm starting to ask questions now.

e: What makes it sound different to me is that TTSA, as I understand it, is about challenging rigid hierarchy that you might normally see in the military, and delegating decisions to people who already have the relevant info, instead of making them pass the info up the chain and wait for a response that might be delayed or misinterpreted or whatever. Whereas what you described sounds like it's arguing that the system must be good because it works for the army.

Scikar fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 15, 2022

ThomasPaine
Feb 4, 2009

We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

OwlFancier posted:

Still think it was great bantz when jez went

You'd think more would have been made of the naked 'no, those are the wrong type of Jews' that followed, but lol British politics. Honestly one of the clearest mask off moments I've ever seen and not a single one of the centrists batted an eye. How surprising.

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

Gamers never having been close enough to a woman to see vellus hair is a more perfect summation of nerd culture than wikipedia's entry on women being around 2000 words and their article on Optimus Prime being around 16,000.

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal
Optimus Prime is bigger than most women tho.

Which makes me wonder who would win in a fight between Optimus Prime and Nancy Fowler Archer?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

I've never seen a woman turn into a truck but I am not ruling out that 1. they can and 2. this is the definition of a woman.

crispix
Mar 28, 2015

Grand-Maman m'a raconté
(Les éditions des amitiés franco-québécoises)

Hello, dear
i shouldn't wonder if she'd be called laurie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (lorry) LOL

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal
I saw a 30 foot man turn into a Freightliner FL86 tractor truck and go straight into the women's facilities @glinner @mumsnettowers :argh:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

Obviously the tradgedy on Cybertron is an intergalactic outrage and the hearts of all right thinking people go out to the brave warriors of the decepticon resistance. But is now really the time to be welcoming these 'transformers' to our planet?

Spike Witwokey and his friends of the autobot autonomists would tell you that they are merely harmless benefactors. But I have seen for myself a robot pee on one of our brave law enforcement officers, quite literally disrespecting the thin blue line between the people and the criminals of this once great planet.

With evidence of their infiltration dating back to the dinosaurs, it is not possible, dear reader, to fully estimate the year these greenwich go-bots first arrived here. However I can reveal that the toy line was first introduced to Britain in the year nineteen hundred and eighty four.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply