|
Addendum to NATO chat: as a big cold war nerd I've long internalized a lot of details about how it was supposed to work, but maybe it's worth trying to explain it in very explicit terms, because they really did account for nukes. Many people seem to assume that the Swedish policy of neutrality actually relied on NATO coming to bail us out anyway, but that isn't really the case. There was secret NATO collaboration, but nothing like plans for an actual intervention on Swedish territory. When they tossed the term "total defense" around, they meant it: all of society mobilized towards defense, civil and military. Those of you who grew up in the 90's might remember that at the back of the phone catalog there was a page with civil defense information, and on that page there was the phrase "every message that claims the resistance has ended is false". That right there is the Swedish nuclear deterrence, such as it was. The answer to the nuclear threat was "we will never surrender, even if you nuke us - you'll have to come dig us out no matter what". What we see in Ukraine right now, like entire cities more or less levelled by artillery, was expected and planned for here as well, and much worse things too. There was a reason for the warehouses with a gas mask for every man, woman and child. In Finland I believe those still exist, but here they've all been burned now. The legal framework for the total defense is almost entirely intact still, and as such any adult citizen can be ordered into government service if the country is put into a state of increased readiness (but you cannot be forced to serve with weapons if you haven't been through military training). I've seen people frown at Ukraine preventing its citizens from leaving the country and arming civilians, but those are perfectly normal measures in a total defense scenario and there are similar provisions here too. If you hear the civil defense sirens going off with 30 seconds of tone alternating with 15 seconds of silence, the signal for "beredskapslarm", that's what that means. This is what non-nuclear deterrence looks like: it is designed to be extremely costly for an invader, but by its nature it is also extremely costly for the defender. Nevertheless that was the plan for many years and in Finland it still is the plan. It is a very unpleasant plan but I believe it would still be the best one, if we still had the capacity to execute on it. The reason for turning to NATO is the hope that the deterrence offered from the alliance might make it less likely we'll ever have to use any defense planning at all. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Apr 14, 2022 |
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 15:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 05:57 |
|
|
Don't pull the thang out, unless you plan to bang
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 15:43
|
|
|
Konec Hry posted:Worth a try. The first new laws will be to make eating mämmi mandatory and to change the national anthem to Den glider in.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 15:45
|
|
|
They keep trying to make Memma a thing in my local ICA Maxi every year. "Easter dessert!!!". I wonder who buys it. Just looks like a bunch of creepy boxes with a black nothingingness in them. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
Konec Hry posted:Worth a try. Fair is fair the Finns can have a go at it for the next 700 years.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 16:10
|
|
|
Threadkiller Dog posted:They keep trying to make Memma a thing in my local ICA Maxi every year. "Easter dessert!!!". 's good, try it with cream
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 16:41
|
|
|
Threadkiller Dog posted:They keep trying to make Memma a thing in my local ICA Maxi every year. "Easter dessert!!!". 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 17:34
|
|
|
Threadkiller Dog posted:They keep trying to make Memma a thing in my local ICA Maxi every year. "Easter dessert!!!". Mämmi is loving tasty, give it a go.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2022 20:14
|
|
|
Ukraine took a lesson from Birger Eriksen. "Der skal for fanden skytes med skarpt!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2022 04:02
|
|
|
Threadkiller Dog posted:They keep trying to make Memma a thing in my local ICA Maxi every year. "Easter dessert!!!". Memma is how Finnish parents punish their children. Dense liquid bread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2022 09:13
|
|
|
Lots of conflicting witness here. Asked a friend with a finnish mom yesterday and he could tell me aaall about memma, how to make it and how it looks and what not. But he confessed he never actually tried memma himself. It all sounds suspiciously like typical finnish bog humour. 
Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Apr 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2022 09:18
|
|
|
The black goo from the boglands of Finlandia is not to be trusted
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2022 10:04
|
|
|
A Finnish man determined to get his Mämmi https://i.imgur.com/c6tz2CZ.mp4
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2022 11:36
|
|
|
Hadnt checked in on Malcolm Kyenue for a while now and man did he go off the deep end. https://twitter.com/mrhenko123/status/1513434363043762185 Not a psychologist but cant help thinking that there is some jealous resentment he is projecting when constructing his sociological pet theory about the "Transferiatet". Since he has never belonged to the vaunted "productive classes" he appeals to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 05:53
|
|
|
Örebro looked more miserable yesterday than usual. I’m glad MY GIRLFRIEND and I are going next week and not this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 07:54
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:Örebro looked more miserable yesterday than usual. I’m glad MY GIRLFRIEND and I are going next week and not this. I was there last night for a Mayhem show and it was ok, minus the MASSIVE smoke plume in the background. What is even the point of a Koran burning?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 08:12
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:Örebro looked more miserable yesterday than usual. I’m glad MY GIRLFRIEND and I are going next week and not this. teen witch posted:I was there last night for a Mayhem show and it was ok, minus the MASSIVE smoke plume in the background. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 08:18
|
|
|
teen witch posted:What is even the point of a Koran burning? Pretty obvious. It's to make your average svennebanan to vote SD. They're gonna see mass destruction of public property caused by a certain subset of people angry about a perfectly legal demonstration done by a Danish clown and they're gonna think twice about who they're wanna vote for in the next election. EDIT: If your home country suddenly starts looking like Ukraine does right now and there's only one party that promises to do anything about it, you'll consider voting for them, even if it's the loving nazis, which is the goal, I imagine. Jack Trades fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Apr 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 13:25
|
|
|
teen witch posted:I was there last night for a Mayhem show and it was ok, minus the MASSIVE smoke plume in the background. How was Mayhem?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 15:00
|
|
|
I still don’t know why this schnook is allowed into the country if this is straight up his one cool trick. Like he’s hardly better than Westboro Baptist. Why keep playing into his game by letting him do this?Mordekai posted:How was Mayhem? Absolutely fantastic and I straight lost it once I heard the intro to Deathcrush. Fuckin Beatlemania type screaming.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 15:06
|
|
|
teen witch posted:I still don’t know why this schnook is allowed into the country if this is straight up his one cool trick. Like he’s hardly better than Westboro Baptist. Why keep playing into his game by letting him do this? Or why care and give him any attention at all? Cool to hear about Mayhem. They're playing the Inferno Festival tonight as well. I guess I could've went for Mayhem, Taake and Marduk.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 15:18
|
|
|
teen witch posted:I still don’t know why this schnook is allowed into the country if this is straight up his one cool trick. Like he’s hardly better than Westboro Baptist. Why keep playing into his game by letting him do this? Sweden is fine with permanently housing actual ISIS terrorists, which I think is a slightly bigger deal than an edgy demonstration.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 15:36
|
|
|
teen witch posted:What is even the point of a Koran burning? To provoke exactly the kind of reaction that happened, and then point to it and go "See!" Crespolini fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 16:10
|
|
|
Jack Trades posted:Pretty obvious. It's to make your average svennebanan to vote SD. The subset of people doing the violence is the same subset of young men who are only there for the thrills. There is no ideological commitment in this group and they are (if not already) part of the demography that will serve as fodder in the gang conflicts. Also, why can’t we treat the Danish clown the same way we do football hooligans? The whole thing is 100% predictable from the start and all the people involved (except the police) wants this outcome.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 17:26
|
|
|
teen witch posted:I still don’t know why this schnook is allowed into the country if this is straight up his one cool trick. Like he’s hardly better than Westboro Baptist. Why keep playing into his game by letting him do this? I kinda like free movement 😳
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
Schengen Area? What's that? Sounds like some bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:33
|
|
|
He has a Swedish passport, he can enter the country whenever he feels like it
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:30
|
|
|
He was granted a demonstration permit, because the police does not and probably should not have a way to pre-approve which political stances are allowed to demonstrate. That said, this party's explicitly stated goal is the prohibition of islam and ethnic cleansing. The people who are to be ethnically cleansed very understandably might have a bit of a problem with those opinions.Cardiac posted:The whole thing is 100% predictable from the start and all the people involved (except the police) wants this outcome. One wonders about the "except the police" bit. While they can't deny a demonstration permit for political reasons, they can deny it if there's reason to believe the situation might become dangerous. In this case it was extremely obvious that it would, so it's a very big mystery why they approved it anyway. And by "very big mystery" I mean it's because they're extremely dumb, quite racist, or both. Unfortunately the police's answer to this seems to be to dig down their heels and escalate with more violence: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sarnecki-ett-allvarligt-polisiart-misslyckande TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Apr 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:34
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:He was granted a demonstration permit, because the police does not and probably should not have a way to pre-approve which political stances are allowed to demonstrate. That said, this party's explicitly stated goal is the prohibition of islam and ethnic cleansing, so there should probably be a way to shut that poo poo down. The people who are to be ethnically cleansed very understandably might have a bit of a problem with those opinions. Lol if you think the riots in any way have to do with ideology and not a general wish to gently caress with the police. Smarter Muslims are of course seeing this as the provocation it is and are not rioting. I don’t have to tell you how far away we are from ethnic cleansing being on the menu.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:44
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:Lol if you think the riots in any way have to do with ideology and not a general wish to gently caress with the police. Smarter Muslims are of course seeing this as the provocation it is and are not rioting. See the edited post. Of course they want to gently caress with the police; they recognize that the police takes sides in this, and it's not their side.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:48
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:I kinda like free movement 😳
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 23:55
|
|
|
Yeah free movement is fine and if he gets into Sweden, fine. But he has to clear other bureaucratic hurdles in order TO do this and how that’s being allowed is what I take onus with. Like clearly this dude has a well defined process, why just let it happen?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 01:26
|
|
|
teen witch posted:Yeah free movement is fine and if he gets into Sweden, fine. But he has to clear other bureaucratic hurdles in order TO do this and how that’s being allowed is what I take onus with. Like clearly this dude has a well defined process, why just let it happen? I guess because we are a nation of laws and it would be weird to say you can’t burn your own property. TheFluff mentioned polisen had a way to stop it but that requires playing some strange chess that counter protestors will riot over the mere threat of a book being burned. It is all stupid, everyone involved in this is dumb. And this Danish racist got exactly what he wanted when the Muslim rioters started.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 08:12
|
|
|
I unfortunately can't find a concrete source either for or against but allegedly no actual books were burned at the "demonstration". Which makes this whole situation even stupider. EDIT: Nevermind, that was inaccurate. A book was burned there. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Jx5LnP/rasmus-paludan-40-branner-koranen-och-siktar-pa-riksdagen Jack Trades fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Apr 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 10:08
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:I guess because we are a nation of laws and it would be weird to say you can’t burn your own property. TheFluff mentioned polisen had a way to stop it but that requires playing some strange chess that counter protestors will riot over the mere threat of a book being burned. It is all stupid, everyone involved in this is dumb. And this Danish racist got exactly what he wanted when the Muslim rioters started. The police can always deny him permit on the grounds that they can't garantuee public order as a consequence of the gathering at this present time. This denial process is not as big of a bureaucratic hurdle as it's made out to be. Also I am so done with Danish/Continental Nazis using Sweden as a proving ground for provocations etc.Now for the record, in a secular democracy it is absolutely okay to set fire to religious texts as a form of symbolic protest, even if it's not your own, and someone doing so does not make it okay to violate public safety by attacking cops for no goddamn reason. That does not mean however that he should get a permit to essentially harass people at this present time. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Apr 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 16:51
|
|
|
It's not completely obvious though, because if you deny them their "protest", they're gonna scream endlessly about being silenced, which is gonna give them anti establishment cred.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 17:02
|
|
|
BonHair posted:It's not completely obvious though, because if you deny them their "protest", they're gonna scream endlessly about being silenced, which is gonna give them anti establishment cred. Agree it's win-win for them regardless, though I do think they'd rather have the riots and headlines if they could choose. Not taking a stance on whether it should be banned, just theorizing. Edit: And boy are they getting them! No idea how bad things are actually, but they seem pretty loving bad when reading papers here from the outside. Crespolini fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Apr 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
Apparently, M wants to give the cops water cannons which is just the kind of short-sighted "only the poors will ever feel the effect of this, problem solved" thinking I've come to expect there. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/morgan-johansson-avfardar-m-krav-om-vattenkanoner-daligt-palasta
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 17:49
|
|
|
So, are the swedes blaming the cops, blaming racism or blaming the instigator for some people apparently losing their free will once a certain book gets torched?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 17:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 05:57 |
|
|
Also blaming punk kids for enjoying a savory melee with the police. Maybe the M folks could go fight in the police's stead so we can get to the hooligan duel stage asap.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2022 17:55
|
|