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Ragnar34 posted:On another note, how is Mummy: the Cursed? I don't see much about it online. Pros: I think the idea is very cool on the face of it, the powers are REALLY powerful and imaginative, I like the idea of Irem as an ancient eldritch lost civilization. There's a lot to like on the fluff, there's a lot to port into other games if you want Cons: Seriously unworkable layout. Like, it's bad even compared to other Onyx Path books, just disastrously unintuitive. It has more jargon and conlang stuff than Werewolf, somehow. There is so much effort that goes into making a Mummy PC compared to any other line's PCs that you will never actually run a game of this for a group, or for more than one or two people. There's also very little idea of what you're supposed to...do? I guess it's a game built around the idea of a series of chronologically-linked oneshots built around quests for ancient artifacts, but that's just so much work compared to every other game line in nwod 2e.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:29
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tatankatonk posted:Cons: Seriously unworkable layout. Like, it's bad even compared to other Onyx Path books, just disastrously unintuitive. It has more jargon and conlang stuff than Werewolf, somehow. There is so much effort that goes into making a Mummy PC compared to any other line's PCs that you will never actually run a game of this for a group, or for more than one or two people. There's also very little idea of what you're supposed to...do? I guess it's a game built around the idea of a series of chronologically-linked oneshots built around quests for ancient artifacts, but that's just so much work compared to every other game line in nwod 2e. Is 2E at least better than the first about a group of Mummies doing things together?
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Apr 16, 2022 03:31
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One thing to be said for Beast is that it certainly is an insight into the author's mindset, in particular the somewhat fleeting archetype of 'woke rapist'.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:40
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Dawgstar posted:Is 2E at least better than the first about a group of Mummies doing things together? Search your heart, you know the answer. I'm still impressed there have been 3/4 shots at doing WoD Mummy and none of them have been good.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:41
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joylessdivision posted:Search your heart, you know the answer. "Fantasy Egypt" is basically graveyard of big fantasy settings. The best fantasy Egypt I've seen by huge margin is Age of Mythology. Drives me a little nuts, pre-Ptolemaic Egypt is incredibly rich, Dispute Between a Man and His Ba is a hell of a lot to unpack, and the Cannibal Hymn is some poo poo, but people just go "mummies and uhhhh"
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Apr 16, 2022 03:52
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Dawgstar posted:Is 2E at least better than the first about a group of Mummies doing things together? Short answer: No Long answer: No, and 1) It's in the text that Mummies ("Deathless") in a group ("meret") don't necessarily awaken at the same time, and even if they do there's no guarantee they all have the same memories of their former relationships, except that 2) the book then says that hey! maybe you don't all need to be Deathless, the party can be one Mummy and a bunch of their mortal cultists (ranging from ordinary to as powerful as a Hunter). It also says that merets usually group together because of a threat, so maybe the party can be a bunch of deathless and their cults dealing with a persistent threat across time? except 3) Deathless can take merits that make it so that they awaken not because of anything to do with their own personal bullshit but because a meret-member is dealing with stuff of their own, and instead of a command from a god being the first and last thing in your mind it's a picture of your friend, so I guess each oneshot could be like, rotating the protagonist among the PCs? except 4) ok so each Deathless serves a god of the underworld with very specific jurisdiction over a specific area of Iremite law and is supposed to pursue that god's agenda and punish wrongdoers who break that god's laws, and if they don't they get punished with increasing severity. Each Deathless has a different Judge it's supposed to be obeying, and they don't often agree on how situations should be handled! So, no, the game occasionally throws you a bone for party motivation but much more often gets lost in the weeds of its own themes and fluff
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Apr 16, 2022 04:03
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Tulip posted:"Fantasy Egypt" is basically graveyard of big fantasy settings. The best fantasy Egypt I've seen by huge margin is Age of Mythology. Discworld has a fun one. But it's one of those things where people have a surface-level fascination but refuse to do really even the most basic level of research and then wonder why they run into a wall. The idea that Beasts think the True Fae are totally awful is especially lol given that CtL 2E establishes that the Keepers are basically their kind's equivalent of animal abusers. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 04:18
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Are we counting Scion 2e where Ancient Egypt kind of never went away and Memphis is just a still-active city you can just go to and live in?
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Apr 16, 2022 04:44
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Ferrinus posted:I actually like scaling XP costs as a general mechanic so I'm glad they're doing this rather than just flattening everything. We actually agree on something! But yeah, I don't mind the scaling, I get why they do it, because the powers scale up dramatically with each level such that the power gain really is not linear, at all.
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Apr 16, 2022 04:49
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Speaking of Scion, if I just wanna read about all their spins on gods and pantheons to steal for my own games, what book should I buy?
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Apr 16, 2022 05:18
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Bogart posted:Speaking of Scion, if I just wanna read about all their spins on gods and pantheons to steal for my own games, what book should I buy? Aesir Manitou Theoi Netjer Kami Tuatha De Danan Orisha Deva Shen Teotl Titanomachy has write-ups for the titans, and some kinda kitbashy rules for Titanic Scions, who are supposedly going to be covered in greater depth in another book in vague stages of production. There's a Companion book with the Loa, Nemetondevos, and Yazata, plus more gods for the above pantheons. And I think that's all that's officially out and done? If you know someone who kickstarted enough to get manuscripts, there's also Demigod (Anunna, Apu, Atua, Bogovi, Tengri), Masks of the Mythos (self-explanatory), and Dragon (same), so far. Those books should be out of "art direction" some time before the sun dies.
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Apr 16, 2022 05:24
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Fuzz posted:We actually agree on something! Frankly I'm not sure that Discipline powers do scale up dramatically with each level, and even in the cases when they do a lot of players might want to take a level 1 power for their first dot and then a different level 1 power for their second dot, etc. Nevertheless, scaling costs have this benefit: with flat costs, it's often less appealing to buy up a low trait than a high trait even if the two purchases do the same thing. Skills are a simple example: if you have Brawl 4 and Weaponry 1, is it better to buy Brawl up to 5 or Weaponry up to 2? Each purchase gives you the same +1 die so they should be worth the same, right? But on any given turn you're only going to be able to bring one of those skills to bear, and absent rare or contrived situations it's always going to be more attractive to throw the bigger one around. Since specialization is basically always appealing in this way in White Wolf-style systems, making it cheaper to spread yourself out is just polite.
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Apr 16, 2022 05:35
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If they really wanted to be honest about (opportunity) costs in WoD/CoD character advancement they would make Wits and Dex cost 2x as much (if not more) than other attributes, because they cannot help making them the most broadly useful stats every single time.
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Apr 16, 2022 05:44
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In the game I played in we did have to house rule being able to take a power lower down the discipline tree if you wanted. I can't remember why at the moment but none of the level three Auspex powers seemed to fit my character so I just doubled back for Sense the Unseen. I guess maybe the designers thought it would be too powerful to let players stack up on free use powers potentially? I personally like being able to do cool vampire poo poo regularly.
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Apr 16, 2022 08:58
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:If you know someone who kickstarted enough to get manuscripts, there's also Demigod (Anunna, Apu, Atua, Bogovi, Tengri), Masks of the Mythos (self-explanatory), and Dragon (same), so far. Those books should be out of "art direction" some time before the sun dies. The respective Kickstarter campaign pages should have links to Backerkit where you're still allowed to back the project and receive the reward sets. That won't make them leave art direction and layout any sooner, but it will give you access to the raw text manuscripts that backers have.
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Apr 16, 2022 09:33
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TheKingslayer posted:In the game I played in we did have to house rule being able to take a power lower down the discipline tree if you wanted. I can't remember why at the moment but none of the level three Auspex powers seemed to fit my character so I just doubled back for Sense the Unseen. That's not a house rule, that's the standard rule of how it works by default. You can take any lower level power at a higher level if you want, the current game I'm in my Minister has Presence 2 but has Eyes of the Serpent and Awe, both level 1 powers.
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Apr 16, 2022 13:55
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Dragonshirt posted:What's wrong with Beast? (Snaps to immediate awareness as someone utters a long buried activation phrase) ffuuuuuuuuuuuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU WHY WOULD YOU SAY THIS!?!? I WAS ALMOST FREE!? I Am Just a Box posted:The lessons thing sounds hastily tacked on because it was hastily tacked on. The Kickstarter launched with a full readable preview manuscript, and discussion erupted with a lot of people going "wait this is... this is actually terrible and it keeps getting worse the more I read into it." Lessons were added by the time of the Kickstarter manuscript, the example feeding session is a little old woman poisoning a high schooler who was stealing holloween candy and using a treat bag to force him to choke on his own vomit. Only barely not killing him before taking the opportunity to turn his house into a new chamber of her lair so she can come back to torture him later. Then going on to describe how the rest of the table looked utterly horrified as a sign that this was a good feeding session. The only change between the KS Manuscript and the core book was they changed the boy they were torturing from a high schooler to a Frat boy. What was removed between the preview material and the kickstarter manuscript was a box of "Beast Lingo" that used a lot of fratboy nomenclature like "Popping your cherry" and "Notching the Bedpost" for the incredibly gross things Beasts Do. And people were real loving confused about it. Anyways, One of the major complaints about the Beast kickstarter manuscript was that Beasts Were Born That Way, which by itself isn't a terrible thing, but then it goes on to describe how Beasts have to torture and break people to feed. To make the metaphor even more explicit several of the example NPC Beasts were gay, trans, or enby, leading to the unfortunate subtext of "Gay people can't help but abuse kids it's in their nature, we can't hold them accountable for that!" As mentioned between the manuscript an the actual book Beasts were no longer born that way, sort of. People were born with the potential to be Beasts, and other beasts could sense this, and devour people to turn them into Beasts. The issue with this is vast swaths of the text were still all about how you were picked on as a kid for being different. Leading to the conclusion of "People picked on you because you were different, and that's bad because you're cool. It's now your sacred duty to get revenge on your abusers to teach them to be better people." Which, like, I don't care how much high school hosed you up, a supernatural using their powers on a human will always, always, be "Punching Down", not up. And the storyteller chapter has a sidebar to the effect of "Congratulations for reading past the first chapter that we had to change to soothe the screaming masses, Beasts are actually born as beasts. Thank you for attending my ted talk." There were also lots of LGBTQ+ Beasts, like 75% of them, and several were basically the walking embodiment of conservative dogwhistles. Like a woman who dressed provocatively and went into clubs so she could break the arms of anyone who thought she wanted to have sex with them. Or a dubiously ethnic cab driver who would take people to the bad part of town. Or a gay beast couple who would talk about this amazing secret hidden treasure trove that was actually a Collector beast's lair, and his Punisher beast boyfriend would kill anyone who tried to steal it because 'it wasn't theirs'. There was also an Enby beast who used "Xir" pronouns and... i can't really remember what their deal was but it was bad. Also all the "heroes" were either fedora wearing m'lady nice guys or WASPy conservatives with the sole exception of a teenage girl who's awakening as a hero was due to a botched devouring and the text of the book is basically "yeah this character is totally cool you guys need to do her devouring right this time so she can be a Beast because being a Beast is loving sweet." I Am Just a Box posted:Narratively, they bring nothing to the table. The storytelling chapter makes very little attempt to explain why having a Beast in your group helps expand or focus the themes or characterization you're drawing out of your interactions. The richest crossover theme they have arguably is with Prometheans, and that's because Beasts thematically stand for everything the Pilgrimage isn't and can thus be toxic bad influence friends holding Prometheans back from what they could achieve. Aside from that it just mumbles some words about subverting the monomyth without any suggestion as to what that means for Vampire or Werewolf. All of that is before getting into the fact that Beasts, in addition to being "the crossover splat," are also "the darkest, most morally monstrous splat since Vampire," meaning crossover parties will only really be comfortable with a Beast if either the Beast is playing very hard against type in a way Beast's rules do not want to facilitate, or the party is the meanest, rawest expression of their respective monster splats. But the piece de resistance of 'why is beast bad' is the Beast Player's Guide. The Beast Players Guide opens up with a short story about 'one of the good heroes' who doesn't kill beasts on sight, that is a Speech Therapist at an elementary school. Who helps save two child beasts who are explicitly too young to have undergone a devouring(and are written as if they had never done so, just being beasts their entire lives) from another beast who's explicitly written as a child rapist (Once he finds out that the two kids he's targeting are beasts his tune changes to 'oh gently caress sorry didn't know you were cool') before he gets his leg punched off at the knee and limps away as the Speech Therapist comes in to make sure the kids are alright. Then the book goes on to introduce two new Beast families, the Ingumma - representing fear of the other which basically manifests as 'fear of ambiguously brown people', and the Talassi... which... loving hell fine. Trigger Warning Rape. You've been warned. Talassi are rapists. The book goes on, at length, about how the original meaning of the word rapio was actually about abduction and imprisonment and not sexual assault, but some ignorant Hero performed some kind of blood curse spell which locked the meaning as 'sexual assault' so the Talassi, who are supposed to represent the fear of imprisonment, are now cursed to be rapists against their will. Some of them heroicly resist this and stay true to their nature as Beasts of the Fear of Imprisonment, but even the staunchest Talassi will give in and rape people sometimes, and the book tells us it is wrong of us to judge them for that, because it's really hard not to rape people you guys and we should be thankful that they're trying. Shortly before this book came out, Matt McFarland, the game designer of Beast, was #MeToo'd, amongst other things he had sexually abused a minor student while he was a teacher but we were long past the statute of limitations on being able to do anything about it. Oh yeah, that, did I mention that Matt McFarland was a speech therapist? Yeah, now you know why i brought that little detail up. Matt then kinda quit onyx path as much as one can quit being a freelancer, said that was a long time ago and it wasn't him anymore, and tried to disappear off the internet. A few months later it came out that Matt and his wife (who was the lead editor on Beast) were abusing their positions as head of a rather large Indie game publisher board to basically feed Matt young impressionable writers to abuse and threaten to blacklist them from the industry if they spoke out, as recently as while Beast was being written. They were swiftly ousted from the industry. I don't know what happened to them after that as my industry contacts dried up. And frankly I don't want to know. That hosed up man ruined enough of my life.
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Apr 16, 2022 14:23
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Kurieg posted:Lessons were added by the time of the Kickstarter manuscript To clarify, there were two Kickstarter manuscripts: the one presented at the beginning of the campaign, without lessons, and the one presented partway through in response to backlash, with lessons. (And some other weird changes here and there, like how at the beginning of the Kickstarter you had a "Soul" instead of a "Horror.") I've got both saved separately as a record of infamy.
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Apr 16, 2022 14:31
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Beast is loving pointless because Deviant covers all the same narrative niches and can tell the same sorts of story super easily, plus it has more options, AND it's just better game without any historic cringe to it.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:43
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Kurieg posted:story 
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Apr 16, 2022 16:51
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I Am Just a Box posted:The respective Kickstarter campaign pages should have links to Backerkit where you're still allowed to back the project and receive the reward sets. That won't make them leave art direction and layout any sooner, but it will give you access to the raw text manuscripts that backers have.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:52
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Thanks CPP and Box! 
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Apr 16, 2022 18:36
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Fuzz posted:That's not a house rule, that's the standard rule of how it works by default. You can take any lower level power at a higher level if you want, the current game I'm in my Minister has Presence 2 but has Eyes of the Serpent and Awe, both level 1 powers. Ah my group must have glossed over that, so at least we were playing right by accident.
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Apr 16, 2022 20:19
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Do you know what is a better game than Beast? Kill Puppies for Satan. If you're a WoD fan and you haven't played it, go buy the PDF and give it a read. It's sort of a breakdown of how and why personal horror works. It's one of those things like Big Trouble in Little China where it's a parody that understands its source material so well that it stands out as one of the better works in the genre. It is also very funny.
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Apr 16, 2022 22:18
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worm girl posted:Do you know what is a better game than Beast? Kill Puppies for Satan. If you're a WoD fan and you haven't played it, go buy the PDF and give it a read. It's sort of a breakdown of how and why personal horror works. It's one of those things like Big Trouble in Little China where it's a parody that understands its source material so well that it stands out as one of the better works in the genre. It is also very funny. KPFS is really good. I've played it a few times and I think it's kind of mediocre in actual play but as a rulebook it's very thought provoking and has some of the funniest writing in RPGs. It's also a watershed moment in modern game design because it's Baker's first published work and we all know where that went, so I think it's worth seeing just on the historic grounds. An aside that I find really funny is that there were two major thoughts that drove Baker to write KPFS (this is from my notoriously poo poo memory so apologies if I get details wrong): he was working in hospital and noticed that medical personnel had incredibly dark senses of humor, stuff that he never saw reflected in any other media, and also he was in an Ars Magica group that had gotten so far up its own rear end that he was about to snap and murder somebody. It also has the funniest rule about vampires any game has ever had.
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Apr 16, 2022 22:38
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Kurieg posted:Oh yeah, that, did I mention that Matt McFarland was a speech therapist? Somehow in the original clusterfuck I missed this detail. 
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Apr 16, 2022 23:09
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Kavak posted:Somehow in the original clusterfuck I missed this detail. It's important to remember that this short story was one of the first things written for beast. The scene with the little girl in the hoodie in the cafeteria is from this short story. Dude was champing at the bit to tell on himself.
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Apr 17, 2022 03:55
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Beast was just one long hosed-up justification fanfic, huh?
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Apr 17, 2022 04:18
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One of the things that stuck with me about Beast's early period was that I got The Bad Vibe you sometimes get in kink spaces pretty early on, and shocking no one, Matt is actively involved in kink spaces. People said I was just projecting but, no - we develop the sketchy vibe sense for a goddamn reason.
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Apr 17, 2022 07:38
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What was the original Kickstarter pitch, even? If it wasn't crowdfunded this really seems like a project where the proper reaction to the first draft should be pulling the plug and going 'What the gently caress is wrong with you?' at the very least.
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Apr 17, 2022 07:38
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By the time we got enough material to get The Vibe (or more accurately enough red flags to host May Day in Moscow again) the book was well into production. They should have pulled the plug but they wouldn't have.
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Apr 17, 2022 08:46
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Because of Beast's messiness it also means (even within this thread) people find it hard to resist trying to 'fix' or rewrite it just by picking on one or two elements that might be salvagable in isolation. For example, if it was me I'd focus on the 'crossover friendly' part, but ditch the shared mythology. Beasts are the various one-off monstrous weirdos of the CofD, who share nothing but an ability to disguise themselves as human (more or less) - and a powerset, but only mechanically, not lorewise. Because they're weird one-offs, that means if they need support, they need to either band together with other beasts (hard to find) or offer allegiance to some supernatural beings that do have a society - if you need flesh then maybe you can work out a deal with vampires, if you need spirit essence then go chat to werewolves, etc That way you could still work in themes of 'found family' and outsider-ness and even being born as a monster.
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Apr 17, 2022 10:06
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bewilderment posted:Because of Beast's messiness it also means (even within this thread) people find it hard to resist trying to 'fix' or rewrite it just by picking on one or two elements that might be salvagable in isolation. And that’s why Deviant is the way it is - no shared mythology, a reason for one off monsters to band together, writers prohibited from using queer-coding the line as a whole.
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Apr 17, 2022 11:14
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Dave Brookshaw posted:writers prohibited from queer-coding the line as a whole. This is just a good idea no matter what game you're writing. It's the epitome of good intentions paving the road to hell.
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Apr 17, 2022 11:27
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https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/393859/Loresheets-by-Night-New-York-City?src=by_author_of_product Loresheets by Night: NYC is out. Five new sheets, one of which may end up getting used in the upcoming NY by Night stream, but honestly pretty unlikely except maybe as an idea/plot hook sorta thing. For those that missed it, here's the old one I made after LA by Night wrapped, which was featured on the WoD News thing once so that was pretty cool. https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/385930/Loresheets-by-Night-Los-Angeles?src=by_author_of_product
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Apr 17, 2022 12:11
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A New York by Night stream? Is Jason running it?
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Apr 17, 2022 13:40
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Kurieg posted:A waking nightmare On top of all this disgusting abuse poo poo with Beasts, is that other supernatural entities are magically compelled to like Beasts. It's been jokingly referred to as a "Poochy Aura" and every supernatural besides Demon's can't help but like those lovable abuse-scamps. There's no stated reason why and other monsters are also incentivized to team up with them because Beasts give a "feeding bonus." Personally, I figured they did it because without it Beasts would be on the Instant Kill list for every other splat. Vampires - Beasts stir up the "herd" they put everyone on edge and that makes it harder to subtly feed when everyone in the area is on edge. Werewolves - All that terror, pain, horror, and abuse Beasts need to kick up to get a good feeding going is going to be SUPER BAD for the spirit world around them, which is sure to cause problems werewolves have to mop up. Prometheans - Having a Beast around seems like a great way to accelerate the timetable on a torch-wielding lynch mob showing up at your Frankenstein doorstep. Changelings - Gosh, I wonder what issues the escaped abuse victims would have with the monster type who needs to abuse to feed? There's actually a note in one of the Beast lorebooks that Beasts get along magnificently with True Fae (!!??) and will happily team up with the Fae on hunts. Mage - You're an egomaniacal wizard but it sure would loving suck to have something living nearby that needs to do poo poo like physically or emotionally abuse your friends and neighbors to stay alive, or do other gross stuff like smear poop on every surface (this is an actual sample character.) Sin Eater - probably similar issues to werewolves. Let's make everything around here worse for everyone! Another fun note is that when it came time to introduce more "antagonist" splats, all they could do was "Beasts, but even more Beast-y." as if you'd want to add an even more unshackled primeval torture horror to your game.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:45
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Was there ever an explained reason by the creators why Beasts had to be the Poochie of Supernaturals? Like why would anyone remotely like a Beast that prabk/ torture/ murders people in such a petty way? Is it just "The Dark Mother (who I just made up) favors them and I as the creator I am Super Special Awesome?" Also why do Demons of all Supers hate Beasts so much? I feel like if the Poochie rule didn't exist, a more nuanced interpretation of Heros/ Beasts, and the complete Excising of Abuse elemental/ utterly hosed up justification you could make it work (and for fucks sakes remove the LGBTQ coding for Beasts) I THINK that would be a good start. Maybe even give people the option to play a Hero or a Beast and flesh it out more. I feel like the "Beast: psychic powers" are already covered by Glamour stuff in Changeling though. Beast/ Hero abilities powers could have functioned like Jojo stands and that could have been loving cool. Sounds like Deviant does some of that stuff. TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 15:54
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I am pretty sure the Beast line is over for good, so best just let it fade into memory rather that rehabilitate the concept.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:57
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TulliusCicero posted:Was there ever an explained reason by the creators why Beasts had to be the Poochie of Supernaturals? Like why would anyone remotely like a Beast that prabk/ torture/ murders people in such a petty way? The given reason why all Supernaturals save Demons love Beasts is that the Dark Mother created all monsters and they're the Dark Mother's favored children. Which requires spotwelding Beast's cosmology onto everyone else's backstory. Fun Fact: the Dark Mother's domain is actively hostile to Beasts because it views the human part of them as a flaw, and their dual natures are too separate to protect the other. Werewolves on the other hand are just fine. Demons hate Beast because Demon is Matt McFarland's other line and he didn't want to drag them down into the mud. Diagetically it's because they were created by the God machine, not the dark mother and thus are completely orthoganal to her cosmology. And yes please resist the urge to rehabilitate Beast, any decent concept you can weld together out of Beast's component parts just turns into Vampire or Werewolf.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:01
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