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Finlandization also gets trotted out to serve whatever ideological viewpoint people want it to serve, with zero consideration to what the facts on the ground actually were and what Finns actually saw their place in the world being at the moment. It was pretty drat far from ideal and looking back it seems incredibly, well, foreign to us younger folks living today, but it also meant retaining our independence for the future — which then came, and now we're making good use of that legacy to secure our place in the West. What I'm trying to say is that people who talk about Finlandization usually give zero shits about Finn's own agency in the matter, a recurring theme with the current war as well. It was complicated, Finns had conflicting internal interests in the matter and used the foreign policy leeway they had to the hilt, with numerous strategies in the play at once. Flattening it all to a single word is useful for foreign policy wonks but it also does gently caress all to shed any light on any situation, current or historical.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:00
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https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1515746486948147211 Probably won't see any action until after the French election. How are u posted:Taco Bell is actually pretty good, if you're drinking. That's a reference to my years-long portfolio of food recipes posted to D&D chat threads. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu3JPwqH5Mg
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Apr 17, 2022 22:04
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I really don't think chomsky deserves the amount of discussion he's been generating in this thread. As a European he's a non issue, a limited Sunday Drama. 
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Apr 17, 2022 22:04
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How are u posted:Taco Bell is actually pretty good, if you're drinking. As drinking Eastern European I'd like to point out that our food is clearly superior for that occasion. At least our drinking food doesn't cause explosive diarrhea. Probably it's the second dumbest idea to eating Sushi or Pizza while drinking..
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Apr 17, 2022 22:05
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ZombieLenin posted:There is always an ideological framework. Ideology attaches itself to everything. Even your statement that there is “no ideological framework” is a statement loaded with ideology and ideological implications. "Putinism" lacks a fundamental modernist world view though. There is no perscribed "putinist" way of seeing the world. There is no Putinism without Putin. There is no grand narrative with a teleology at the end like modern ideologies.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:11
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FishBulbia posted:"Putinism" lacks a fundamental modernist world view though. There is no perscribed "putinist" way of seeing the world. There is no Putinism without Putin. There is no grand narrative with a teleology at the end like modern ideologies. Sure there is, even if it is Putin is the god emperor and we surrender our freedom to his vision; plus, I don’t know how you can say that given Putin’s diatribe on “Greater Russia.” So from a teleological perspective Putinism is not much different than National Socialism. Russia must transform itself back into Greater Russia and offers itself as an “alternative” to Western post industrial capitalism whose universe rotates around contemporary identity politics. And even if it was the case there is no “teleological element;” again, that’s just a trick. Even that statement has teleological implications just as the statement “there are no meta-narratives” is actually a meta narrative in disguise.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:29
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FishBulbia posted:"Putinism" lacks a fundamental modernist world view though. There is no perscribed "putinist" way of seeing the world. There is no Putinism without Putin. There is no grand narrative with a teleology at the end like modern ideologies. It might not be a grand world view, whatever that means, but "Everyone is a selfish bastard like me, and anyone who claims they aren't is lying" is a worldview at any rate.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:30
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ZombieLenin posted:Sure there is, even if it is Putin is the god emperor and we surrender our freedom to his vision; plus, I don’t know how you can say that given Putin’s diatribe on “Greater Russia.” To piggybaxck: Fascist and putinism: based on a great lie A wish to return to a before time that was great "MAGA movement stuff" A desire to subjugate an inferior race based on theory of racial superiority. It's fascism. And the frontier dominance is also prevalent as Ukraine sits on a mountain of natural resources that are "ripe for extraction"
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Apr 17, 2022 22:33
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:so much effort to cover up your jealousy that america can produce gross food on a level eastern europeans can only dream about Ah, I see you missed the Christmas salad discussion.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:36
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mmkay posted:Ah, I see you missed the Christmas salad discussion. The Olivier salad talk gave Putin a casual belli to invade Ukraine
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Apr 17, 2022 22:40
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:To piggybaxck: Maybe looking for an analogy from 90 years ago isn't useful ultimately. Today it would seem silly to say that Hitler was a neo-Bonapartist or whatever. These things are contingent. I understand the appeal of labeling something as fascism essentially just to mean "the most dangerous type of revisionist conservatism," but maybe its just not useful, and can obscure more than it reveals. I don't really have a take I guess. Before the invasion I would've said the comparison was ridiculous though.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:41
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Libluini posted:it will look even more impressive if they get some explosions from anti-ship missiles in the background Cool guys never look at explosions
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Apr 17, 2022 22:45
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mmkay posted:Ah, I see you missed the Christmas salad discussion. Eastern Europe does mayo salads that the fattest of midwesterners could only dream of.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:50
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I'm honestly struggling to see what about Putinism ISN'T absolutely textbook 1930s fascism. He's kind of just doing... that old poo poo?
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Apr 17, 2022 22:53
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\IMO Putinism can be satisfactorily classified as (neo)patrimonialism, which also ties into Russia's apparent backslide into a state of some sort of curtailed modernity.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:55
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FishBulbia posted:Nothing? I just said Nordic neutrality worked better than the alternative. Nordic neutrality was never a thing. Sweden was the only country that managed to (more or less) credibly stay neutral during WW1 and WW2 (and after), whereas Finland got forced (read: bullied) into being "neutral" (as has been mentioned up-thread already) after WW2. The rest of the Nordic countries were founding members of NATO. As for Putin? He's just another fascist. There's no need to give what he's doing a label beyond that. Certainly not something derived from his name.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:55
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Even if Chomsky (or anyone else on the left) believed before the war that a quick surrender was the best humanitarian outcome, I can't imagine retaining that belief post-Bucha, Irpin, etc. Ideology has to yield to facts on the ground: yes, wars are best avoided, but a Russian occupation was for sure going to be worse than fighting a war. Bucha on the scale of Kyiv (or the entire country) would've been another 'never again' moment.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:56
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sean10mm posted:I'm honestly struggling to see what about Putinism ISN'T absolutely textbook 1930s fascism. He's kind of just doing... that old poo poo? It's not fascism it's 20th century imperialism!
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Apr 17, 2022 22:56
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sean10mm posted:I'm honestly struggling to see what about Putinism ISN'T absolutely textbook 1930s fascism. He's kind of just doing... that old poo poo? The traditional distinction between Totalitarianism and Authoritarianism is basically level of societal penetration. Authoritarian regimes are not characterized by popular mobilization, but rather popular demobilization. It's one of the reasons authoritarians traditionally suck at war (that and keeping militaries weak to prevent a coup/focus on domestic suppression). You can be apathetic in an authoritarian regime, its fine, no one cares, you can't change poo poo. In a totalitarian regime there is some level of "buy-in" expected on the part of the population at large. You're supposed to be active. While Putin's Russia has certainly had abortive attempts at fostering mass participation popular "buy-in" see nashi and the like, it has generally fit the mold of authoritarianism. At least it seemed that way until a few months ago. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 23:00
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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would it be very bad if Zelensky decides to end negotiations with Russia is Mariupol falls? I feel like Russia would use it as an excuse to escalate more
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Apr 17, 2022 23:04
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Willo567 posted:Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would it be very bad if Zelensky decides to end negotiations with Russia is Mariupol falls? I feel like Russia would use it as an excuse to escalate more First, escalate more how? 100% of their available military is already fighting. Second, what negotiations, Russia has shown zero interest in actually negotiating beyond perfunctory keeping up of appearances.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:06
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Willo567 posted:Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would it be very bad if Zelensky decides to end negotiations with Russia is Mariupol falls? I feel like Russia would use it as an excuse to escalate more Negotiations at this stage are not in good faith. Nothing that Russia could offer would be approaching acceptability. Putin is going to try to score a decisive victory and his terms aren't going to change until he wins or fails in eastern operation.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:07
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Willo567 posted:Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would it be very bad if Zelensky decides to end negotiations with Russia is Mariupol falls? I feel like Russia would use it as an excuse to escalate more What negotiations? Putin is pretending to negotiate, sure, but...
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Apr 17, 2022 23:08
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https://twitter.com/juliaskripkaser/status/1515333452966641673
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Apr 17, 2022 23:10
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https://mobile.twitter.com/ICTV_Fakty/status/1515713285848510469 Godspeed Mariupol defenders https://mobile.twitter.com/IntelCrab/status/1515699046542884872 https://mobile.twitter.com/MotolkoHelp/status/1515780814109294600 https://mobile.twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1515765884094197769
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Apr 17, 2022 23:14
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Are the negotiations still actually happening? I thought the Ukrainians had called them off for now because they weren't getting anywhere (with the implication that the Russian negotiating team could do nothing without Putin's approval which was not forthcoming.)
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Apr 17, 2022 23:16
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Tomn posted:Are the negotiations still actually happening? I thought the Ukrainians had called them off for now because they weren't getting anywhere (with the implication that the Russian negotiating team could do nothing without Putin's approval which was not forthcoming.) There hasn’t been anything public since the round of talks in Istanbul. Conversations are likely happening in the background, as evidenced by trickle of prisoner exchanges, but I reckon that both sides would be publicly declaring anything meaningful.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:18
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There's not been much movement recently, but the only gains are ones made by Ukraine in the east. Maybe Russia are afraid of losing an offensive in Donbas but it feels like they have to do something there to put themselves in a position to negotiate something besides complete withdrawal.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:22
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 could be true? Looks like the right ship.  Moskva
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Apr 17, 2022 23:27
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Risky Bisquick posted:
 Looks 100% the same ship Chalks fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 23:30
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Risky Bisquick posted:
Does look plausible--assuming it is, I wonder who took the picture, and when?
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Apr 17, 2022 23:32
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I suspect there are some rather anxious calculations being made of the attrition the Russian Army will take to push forward in the Donbas, the Ukranian ability to exert constant light pressure everywhere, and what happens when this last offensive reaches its culmination point. e: like, the push factor is Putin demanding a 'win', but really no professional staff officer could possibly recommend throwing the last of Russia's now irreplacable due to sanctions tank fleet into the Donbass.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:33
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Moskva pic all over socials now, probably legit. It would have to be taken from a navy boat, someone leaked this, yikes https://mobile.twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1515819321687224323
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Apr 17, 2022 23:36
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Risky Bisquick posted:Moskva pic all over socials now, probably legit. It would have to be taken from a navy boat, someone leaked this, yikes A second picture too, from earlier it looks like given the more serious fire: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1515821259225022466/photo/1Can I just point out how completely calm the weather looks, for a ship that sank during a fierce storm?
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Apr 17, 2022 23:38
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Risky Bisquick posted:
Better crop... https://i.imgur.com/j2368aK.png Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 23:38
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I’m not sure what I expected after reported multiple ASM hits, but that looks like hell to try to survive, if those are real photos of Moskva.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:41
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Chalks posted:A second picture too, from earlier it looks like: There we go, same damage different angle. Same sea conditions and lighting. Looks like the neptunes hit midship and detonated the AShM or started a fire which spread and detonated some munitions. Well either this or it was a bad hailstorm cinci zoo sniper posted:I’m not sure what I expected after reported multiple ASM hits, but that looks like hell to try to survive, if those are real photos of Moskva. Risky Bisquick fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 23:41
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Chalks posted:A second picture too, from earlier it looks like given the more serious fire: iirc from the weather reports that day that a smallish storm moved through around midnight (like 30km/h winds... so not a huge storm but not nothing either) and that apparently sent it down. Incidentally that was also when Russia announced that the explosions on board hat finally stopped, which tbh I just assumed at the time was them confirming the ship had finally sunk. you can also see the pumps are obviously running in that pic, albeit it's so low in the water that it's clearly already taking on water in addition to listing badly Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 23:41
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Nexta, but around 50 dead and some more missing is about what you'd expect for that sort of damage https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1515772967753498629
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Apr 17, 2022 23:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:iirc from the weather reports that day that a smallish storm moved through around midnight (like 30km/h winds... so not a huge storm but not nothing either) and that apparently sent it down. Yeah, just making a joke about quote:Moskva, the flagship of Russia's Black Sea Fleet, was being towed to port when "stormy seas" caused it to sink, according to a ministry message. Stormy seas indeed.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:45
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