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Tomn posted:He might be referring to what might be the fire hoses from the other pic, which would require a pump of their own. Not sure why they'd be going in the one pic and not the other, though. Maybe in the one where they're going they're not being used for firefighting, but instead for emergency bilge pumping capacity? That would explain why that one hose is pointed aft away from the fire. That's the НоҺомо field emitter. To prevent Gay Incursions all Russian warships maintain a constant protective field of holy water when beyond the sight of shore. As we see in this photo, the field is intact and the ship is protected. Another victory for Russian engineering.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:02
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That's the НоҺомо field emitter. To prevent Gay Incursions all Russian warships maintain a constant protective field of holy water when beyond the sight of shore. As we see in this photo, the field is intact and the ship is protected. Another victory for Russian engineering. Always love me a good AV/post combo.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:05
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GD_American posted:Do they even have reload-at-sea capability? Haha no loving way. Those things are huge
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Apr 18, 2022 01:13
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https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1515837566356008961 from the guy who runs gcaptain Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Apr 18, 2022 |
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Apr 18, 2022 01:23
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Blind Rasputin posted:This website has a lot of publically available info about those missiles. They seem quite formidable on paper. A salvo of 8 attacking a carrier battle group could probably be dangerous, especially if they’re going supersonic.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1515837566356008961 Wild. Not going to lie, when I first saw people on twitter and elsewhere starting to chat about the Moskva maybe being hit I dismissed it as 100% pro-Ukrainian wishful thinking misinformation, which there's no shortage of floating around.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:52
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Herstory Begins Now posted:https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1515837566356008961 This stood out to me as a Ship Person: https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1515839403196928005 And it's frankly astonishing. There's a huge amount of Not On Fire ship there so the idea that it was completely abandoned by what I've always believed are professional mariners is astonishing.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:55
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Nuclear Tourist posted:Wild. Not going to lie, when I first saw people on twitter and elsewhere starting to chat about the Moskva maybe being hit I dismissed it as 100% pro-Ukrainian wishful thinking misinformation, which there's no shortage of floating around. Where is the the meme of the Ukrainian soldier saying "they are so loving stupid"
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Apr 18, 2022 01:55
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Flikken posted:Where us the the meme of the Ukrainian soldier saying "they are so loving stupid"
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Apr 18, 2022 01:57
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Literally on the last page.Jasper Tin Neck posted:Can't make this poo poo up, captured Russian TNT charges turn out to be blocks of wood in paper wrapping.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:59
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Stultus Maximus posted:And it's frankly astonishing. There's a huge amount of Not On Fire ship there so the idea that it was completely abandoned by what I've always believed are professional mariners is astonishing. Would it really matter how much of the aft was spared if the fore is an uncontrollable shitshow of fire and destroyed, critical equipment? It's a possibility that the ship could've been saved, but I'm getting more of a "half of it was glowing red slag on the inside" feeling seeing those pictures. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Apr 18, 2022 |
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Apr 18, 2022 02:00
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Stultus Maximus posted:This stood out to me as a Ship Person: OTOH the persons abandoning said ship might have been acutely aware of unreleased seaworthiness details and explodey-thingy-aboard details we do not know when making said call, and might not have been very motivated or attached to theyr prifessional environment. For example If the sailors knew that X amount of damage control stuff was inop or only existed on paper. Or that there Were no supporting ships for Moskva to help the Now-completely-defenseless ship. Plus they had no idea if there were more missiles on the way.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:00
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One thing that isn't really communicated in the pics is that the ship was not just burning *munitions were actively exploding* from when it was hit to when it went down. Iirc Russia said nothing about the ship between the 'it finally stopped exploding' (which was ~8 hours after it was hit) and when they finally reported it having gone down. So yeah I'd put 'continued munition explosions' in the pile of 'they were aware of unreleased seaworthiness conditions' (also idk about his conclusion that it was likely abandoned prematurely, I'm skeptical of any conclusion based off of two pics, though I think he's also aware of the weakness of that analysis)
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Apr 18, 2022 02:06
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Tiny Timbs posted:Would it really matter how much of the aft was spared if the fore is an uncontrollable shitshow of fire and destroyed, critical equipment? It's a possibility that the ship could've been saved, but I'm getting more of a "half of it was glowing red slag on the inside" feeling seeing those pictures. I mean.. didn’t the US Navy save and get back to port an aircraft carrier with a similarly glowing red full of slag bow?
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Apr 18, 2022 02:08
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An explosion is just things burning very quickly.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:08
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I would give up and abandon ship if I had uncontrollable flooding, I could not isolate the fire or otherwise perform boundary cooling, or expected a good chance of a large explosion at some point. I think Konrad might have missed the explosion part cause abandoning for that would be fully justified and would have happened early. Every now and then he loses the plot a little but otherwise I like him.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:09
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lightpole posted:I would give up and abandon ship if I had uncontrollable flooding, I could not isolate the fire or otherwise perform boundary cooling, or expected a good chance of a large explosion at some point. I think Konrad might have missed the explosion part cause abandoning for that would be fully justified and would have happened early. Every now and then he loses the plot a little but otherwise I like him. He also accuses the captain of abandoning ship to early even though the Captain went down before his ship did.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:18
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Tiny Timbs posted:Would it really matter how much of the aft was spared if the fore is an uncontrollable shitshow of fire and destroyed, critical equipment? It's a possibility that the ship could've been saved, but I'm getting more of a "half of it was glowing red slag on the inside" feeling seeing those pictures. Yes. The USS Franklin lost 800 people and they saved the ship. The Samuel B Roberts literally had its keel snapped and they saved the ship. The Stark was very, very close to being lost but was saved. You probably know about the Cole. There is so much national prestige wrapped up in a ship being sunk, that the US Navy has a very definite "gently caress you, didn't sink it" mentality to damage control. That's why the Samuel B. was returned to service, even though it took being repaired by essentially cannibalizing several modules from a frigate under construction. It might not have been cost effective, but we'd be damned if we let Iran claim that they knocked a US Navy ship out of commission.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:23
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Blind Rasputin posted:I mean.. didn’t the US Navy save and get back to port an aircraft carrier with a similarly glowing red full of slag bow? Multiple times, actually. The USS Forrestal, and the USS Enterprise both had massive explosions and fuel fires that spread well below the flight deck, and they were able to save the ships. Obviously, an aircraft carrier is going to have significantly more freeboard and reserve buoyancy to deal with something like that, but fighting a fire on board a ship is always very dangerous cause you're dealing with introducing more water onto an already damaged and potentially unstable ship to deal with a fire that is a danger to its crew and eventually its continued ability to float. It's really not fair to compare the two though because honestly, the sailors of the Russian Navy are hosed mightily by the corruption in the system, and I feel for them because nothing is scarier to me as a sailor than the thought of having to fight a major shipboard casualty but all of your equipment on board the ship is hosed cause people have been selling off critical parts to make cash, or the parts were never there in the first place. The ocean doesn't give a gently caress about your nationality or who you are, it will kill you just the same.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:37
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I mean, the US Navy has both a safety culture and a damage control culture, and they've almost lost ships at sea (and lost ships in port) numerous times to dumb bullshit, random chance, and disaffected sailors. Sailing is dangerous. Everything about ships, including working on them from the shore, is loving dangerous. The fact that the Russian Navy can't save an eminently saveable ship after enemy action makes total sense.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:40
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Proper damage control is a costly lesson that is almost always paid for in blood. Sadly it's also a lesson that needs to be relearned from time to time. Considering the reports of their maintenance issues I am rather dubious that Russian damage control practices/training are all that great either.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:51
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orange juche posted:Multiple times, actually. GD_American posted:I mean, the US Navy has both a safety culture and a damage control culture, and they've almost lost ships at sea (and lost ships in port) numerous times to dumb bullshit, random chance, and disaffected sailors. I know it makes sense given what we've seen, but stepping onto a ship that you know is a death trap and you either won't or can't fix it is just...  Your ship is the only thing between you and a whole lot of watery death. Navy damage control culture and maintenance culture is based on a long, long nautical tradition of knowing that the ocean is trying to kill you. Saving the ship above all else is deep in the sailor psyche because it's the only thing that keeps you alive.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:53
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Every single U.S example listed above had the idea that it would be supported by other U.S vessels hopefully whilst undergoing damage control. As far as we know Moskva was literally alone, raising two repercussions: A) the moment their self-protection was compromised due to damage, they Were literally naked and unarmed in enemy territory. B) the crew must have felt that command could not give a single gently caress about their life or death. Neither of these are very encouraging to ”stay and fight” on a ship that could take a new hit any moment.
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Apr 18, 2022 02:55
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It also seems a tough call because all we're seeing is the "after" picture. We don't know what the situation was when the Abandon Ship order was given. There may well have been a moment when staying on the ship was unsurvivable and it was the only reasonable thing to do. All we see is what it looks like after the fires had died down.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:00
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If it were a US Navy ship in the same situation, but with working DC gear, they would have been able to save the ship most likely, but there's stuff about the Moskva's situation that we just don't know. We know there were what looks like external explosions from the SS-N-12 missiles, but if she also took a hit up further forward towards her turret, perhaps there was fires below deck as well, and potential fires close to or in the ship's forward gun magazine, and we don't know what kind of shape the ship's chain of command was in, how they organize damage control on Russian ships, or what the interior condition of the ship was like. On US ships, when there's a fire/flooding casualty, the DCA (Damage Control Assistant) takes over responsibility for the casualty and their whole job is to ensure the ship survives. I don't know if the Russian Navy has an analogue or if the CO has to make the decisions for fighting the ship as well as dealing with battle damage. orange juche fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 18, 2022 |
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Apr 18, 2022 03:05
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I'm not saying I know everything from one picture, but given a ship with half of it not on fire and there still is power to run pumps, any reasons for abandoning the ship in that condition point to deep, disturbing problems.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:14
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Stultus Maximus posted:I'm not saying I know everything from one picture, but given a ship with half of it not on fire and there still is power to run pumps, any reasons for abandoning the ship in that condition point to deep, disturbing problems. The water is coming from the tug, we can’t tell whether they had power. But yeah looks like a pretty early abandonment, unless there was another fire that burned out or a magazine was about to go.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:16
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I guess what we are all finally accepting through this conversation is that if a massive catastrophic ordinance explosion can happen to a US ship, why not a Russian ship? I’m glad we are finally accepting this Ukrainian Neptune attack hyperbole for what it is.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:20
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Blind Rasputin posted:I guess what we are all finally accepting through this conversation is that if a massive catastrophic ordinance explosion can happen to a US ship, why not a Russian ship? I’m glad we are finally accepting this Ukrainian Neptune attack hyperbole for what it is. Missile attacks can cause ordnance explosions, there’s no reasons to doubt that Ukrainian forces shot the drat thing.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:21
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Blind Rasputin posted:I guess what we are all finally accepting through this conversation is that if a massive catastrophic ordinance explosion can happen to a US ship, why not a Russian ship? I’m glad we are finally accepting this Ukrainian Neptune attack hyperbole for what it is. The gently caress is this poo poo?
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Apr 18, 2022 03:33
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Blind Rasputin posted:I guess what we are all finally accepting through this conversation is that if a massive catastrophic ordinance explosion can happen to a US ship, why not a Russian ship? I’m glad we are finally accepting this Ukrainian Neptune attack hyperbole for what it is. If McCain were still alive they could probably taunt us with the Flaming O to point out "hey it can happen to anyone, right?" e- cmon guys spot a joke
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Apr 18, 2022 03:33
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Turns out slamming a missile into a boat full of missiles and other ordnance causes a big loving explosion that is very bad for the boat. Whoda thunk it?
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Apr 18, 2022 03:35
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GD_American posted:If McCain were still alive they could probably taunt us with the Flaming O to point out "hey it can happen to anyone, right?" Come on man, there are people out there unironically saying poo poo like that. Do you know how hard it is to discern poo poo posting from posting like poo poo?
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Apr 18, 2022 03:37
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The Pentagon also flat out confirmed that the Ukrainians hit the ship. There was probably an AWACS watching the whole thing happen. Just because the missile strike didn't instantly sink the ship doesn't mean the Ukrainians didn't kill it.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:40
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Kazinsal posted:Turns out slamming a missile into a boat full of missiles and other ordnance causes a big loving explosion that is very bad for the boat. Whoda thunk it? 
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Apr 18, 2022 03:43
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All I know is big boat sank and I'm happy it did. Doesn't matter how it happened, just glad it's an artificial reef now. Also an indeterminable amount of dead russians, but that's literally the whole theater right now, not just water toys.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:43
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Stultus Maximus posted:I'm not saying I know everything from one picture, but given a ship with half of it not on fire and there still is power to run pumps, any reasons for abandoning the ship in that condition point to deep, disturbing problems. The scorch marks along the sides of the ship and the transition to the quarterdeck gives me reason to suspect there were extensive internal fires.
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Apr 18, 2022 03:52
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Taerkar posted:The scorch marks along the sides of the ship and the transition to the quarterdeck gives me reason to suspect there were extensive internal fires. Turns out they filled the entire ship with oily rags and half filled barrels of lubricant and those dastardly Ukrainians set off the oily rags.
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Apr 18, 2022 04:09
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Does everyone remember when the Russians seemed like the technologically advanced force? This is actually something I've been thinking about for a bit. Why isn't Russia using their hacking abilities to gently caress with countries giving aid to Ukraine? Are their capabilities overblown or would doing such a thing turn a cyber war into a blow poo poo up war?
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Apr 18, 2022 04:25
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For a ship that just got gooch-tapped by shore fire I'd certainly be expecting more incoming boomy when they noticed the dry part of the ship was not very wet and very deep so giving up was probably not as premature as it may seem.
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Apr 18, 2022 04:29
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