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I don't know, I kinda like that there are areas in the game that are actually scary because death hurts. If death had no teeth then I'd just strip naked and go suicide exploring dungeons and such to find all the stuff in them.
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Apr 19, 2022 01:13
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There was plenty of risk just inherent in EQ. You couldn’t really avoid it until you were way over leveled/geared for the content. Nowadays you literally can’t take any risk at all because there’s no downside to anything, which is actually boring.
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Apr 19, 2022 01:17
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now that i'm no longer 14, i kind of like the graveyards in PoP, having just recently experienced them for the first time over on TAKP. a wipe deep inside a dungeon during my evening play sessions goes from, "gently caress, guess I'm rolling into work with 4 hours of sleep tomorrow while we try to do some CR bullshit" to "lets chill for 15min for our corpses to pop up at the GY, rez up and call it a night". i guess i'm ok with a time-based smack on the wrist these days, rather than a full-on poo poo sandwich of a corpse recovery (likely to result in more corpses) followed by giving up and /ooc'ing for a necro.
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Apr 19, 2022 01:55
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cmdrk posted:now that i'm no longer 14, i kind of like the graveyards in PoP, having just recently experienced them for the first time over on TAKP. Nothing wrong with this, but this is definitely the modern MMO thing. If someone is looking for something closer to classic EQ, it's in part due to it not being like this. Also FWIW very few of my CRs on P99 have ever been even remotely challenging. Usually it's waiting for me at the ZL because I already ran the train out there. The only times I've had to call a necro are when I've been doing known-risky-stupid things, like soloing down in the permafrost bear pits.
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Apr 19, 2022 04:00
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Classic EQ had some serious not logical design decisions. EQ does not know if it wants to be a raiding game or a group dungeon crawl game. Classic was fairly strong in its dungeon crawl game, with a few bigger end game challenges to use your group loot on. In D&D death was a big deal, total group kill was the end of the campaign. With this background the game makers wanted death to hurt. Then you get to POP, and the game is almost 100% about raids, with a few group challenges added for good measure. The more the game was about raiding, the more it had to make death cost less as you expected players to die, wipe, and come back (fairly quickly) for more. In fact rogue likes have adopted strat 1, and almost no other game type other then a few full loot MMOs will adopt strat 1. All modern MMOs want a playerbase that is bigger, and bigger means death costs less. The challenge should be the raid, or content itself instead.
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Apr 19, 2022 05:00
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"Classic EQ" usually refers to Vanilla, Kunark, and Velious at least in my experience, so the fact that things changed during POP (which IMO was a terrible expansion) doesn't really reflect on classic. There's Al`Kabor/EQ Mac, but I don't think that's what most people think of when they say "classic EQ".
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Apr 19, 2022 15:56
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EQ didn't really need xp loss - just getting back to where you were grouping was usually enough of a pain if you were a non-caster since you couldn't bind wherever you wanted. Dying in Kunark was especially a nightmare on live I probably died more times trying to get from FV to Lake of Ill Omen than I did actually grouping. It's a different game on P99 since your guild is gonna have a ton of high level cleric alts to get your xp back at a moment's notice. Extremely good and correct post.
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Apr 19, 2022 18:41
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P99 definitely reduces the sting of XP loss due to how many cleric clickies are out in the wild, but I think that's the best way to handle it. Keep it so it's there and it hurts, but make it relatively easy for 1-2 classes to fix it. Interdependency and all that good stuff, same with teleports, SoW, Clarity, binds, etc. (all on different classes of course).
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Apr 19, 2022 18:46
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I definitely prefer the world to be what I’m engaging with and what poses a challenge rather than instanced content like raids. It’s a shame MMOs have given up on that entirely except slightly gw2.
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Apr 19, 2022 19:16
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here's the (orc) hill that I'd like to die on: with hindsight being 20/20, i believe that huge, seamless worlds didn't really add as much to MMOs as everyone thought they would. did they really add much to your immersion/enjoyment? zones are the better design from both a gameplay and technical perspective  Discuss!
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Apr 19, 2022 21:28
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A huge seamless world adds something if content is spread out across the world. You need levels to mix it up (or remove levels). The EvE online model I think does this best, lots of territory, every area has something unique like types of minerals or NPCs, players can make almost any area grow more populated. Downside is that it's all generated on the fly and everything mostly feels the same. Could this model translate into a on land MMO, not sure yet, no one has thrown together the right systems for a huge open world, with player interaction, and content enough to keep people logged in.
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Apr 19, 2022 21:56
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from a technical perspective I'd say EVE is closer to EQ than say, WoW, albeit quite a bit more precedural. e.g. you have to take a jumpgate or whatever to get to the next system, that's just a zone line in my book. that said, I'd love to see the model translate to land MMOs. My fantasy MMO would have a hand-crafted core set of zones, in different regions/continents/whatever, with a few starting cities and precedural, conquerable wilderness between them and on their outskirts. yeah, that'd be cool 
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Apr 19, 2022 22:40
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If we're picking hills to die on, mine is that Crowfall's world model of temporary, dying (narratively and gameplay-wise) worlds with a lifetime of weeks to a couple of months, with a persistent meta-world to import/export things from between "campaigns", is really cool and solves a lot of PvP problems without losing too much of the persistence that makes MMOs cool. I'd love to see the same concept applied to PvE, even if it means some procgen jank. It also kinda does what you're talking about as far as translating EVE jumpgates to land MMO, since Crowfall's world is a lot of floating islands connected by travel gates. Sachant fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 19, 2022 |
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Apr 19, 2022 22:44
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Sachant posted:If we're picking hills to die on, mine is that Crowfall's world model of temporary, dying (narratively and gameplay-wise) worlds with a lifetime of weeks to a couple of months, with a persistent meta-world to import/export things from between "campaigns", is really cool and solves a lot of PvP problems without losing too much of the persistence that makes MMOs cool. I'd love to see the same concept applied to PvE, even if it means some procgen jank. yeah, I think it would be really smart to build in a cycle of death/rebirth for the server into the core of the game. EQ TLPs and emu servers have evolved to become essentially "seasons" for the game. it's a convenient way to beat down mudflation and stagnation. I guess in some sense muds did this at a player level - remort systems to allow players to start over once they've reached whatever cap. I want a remort system for the whole server.
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Apr 19, 2022 22:57
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Wow this new WoW expansion looks extremely  Work orders? Good improvement. New race/class? Meh, fine. Bringing back a modified version of the old talent system?  And a whole bunch of boring, samey looking "forest-mountain" zones like half of the zones already in the game Figured this general MMO bitching thread would be a good place to bitch about an mmo
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Apr 19, 2022 23:12
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The only good announcement was Wrath of the Lich King classic server.
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Apr 19, 2022 23:43
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FrostyPox posted:Wow this new WoW expansion looks extremely Who is WoW's player base these days, anyhow? Is it a few die hards kind of like the people that still play EQ Live?
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Apr 20, 2022 00:39
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I play it casually because I dearly want it to be good but I play less and less every day (more like weeks at this point tbh).
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Apr 20, 2022 00:41
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cmdrk posted:Who is WoW's player base these days, anyhow? Is it a few die hards kind of like the people that still play EQ Live? I think it's a lot of people with sunk cost fallacy syndrome and people who have only ever played WoW
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Apr 20, 2022 00:43
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cmdrk posted:Who is WoW's player base these days, anyhow? Is it a few die hards kind of like the people that still play EQ Live? Ooh no WoW is still really big. I think around 2 million subs? Which granted is very small compared to its peak, but its still very much the biggest earner for Blizzard. Final Fantasy XIV has taken over though as the top AAA mmorpg.
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Apr 20, 2022 00:54
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to their credit they at least didn't try to do a "we're making all your dreams come true" expansion reveal video the problem is the game is garbage and this expansion is just rearranging deckchairs on the titanic
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Apr 20, 2022 00:57
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cmdrk posted:here's the (orc) hill that I'd like to die on: It's an aesthetic choice that works for itself artistically, but not if you go full theme park. Lord of the Rings Online did a decent job having some zones completely open to one another, while others had multiple narrow spots to get in and out, and a few zones you can't get in except one way. The setting demanded it and the compromise between that and still being a theme park MMO worked out well. Same goes for cross-level zones. It's effectively window dressing without content both level ranges can engage in, and if you do have the content, did you really need levels to begin with? (looking at you GW2)
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Apr 20, 2022 01:01
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I said come in! posted:The only good announcement was Wrath of the Lich King classic server. I decided to not level my characters in TBCC because the group finding process in classic was terrible (like the reserved items or hyper optimized groups poo poo). So while I really enjoyed classic, once I did all dungeons at least once I dropped it. Came back a couple months later to do the same on an alt and while I got to do most dungeons, I couldn't find groups for some leveling dungeons and then just didn't bother with the max level ones because of the earlier mentioned issues. Classic itself was great (the dungeons, the leveling and everything), the community was hands down the worst part of classic. So why bother going trough that in TBCC, just wait for WotLKC and do it with dungeon finder right?! Just quest, queue up for dungeon every now and then clear a dungeon, no spamming needed or anything. So yeah ... guess I won't have to resub for a while. DaitoX fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 11:49
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I said come in! posted:The only good announcement was Wrath of the Lich King classic server. Nah, they're going to gently caress that up too. Selling boosts and wowtokens means the botting epidemic that completely ruined Classic will not be dealt with at all. Real bummer since Wrath is my fav expac and would resub in a heartbeat if they didn't ruin it. DaitoX posted:So why bother going trough that in TBCC, just wait for WotLKC and do it with dungeon finder right?! Just quest, queue up for dungeon every now and then clear a dungeon, no spamming needed or anything. So yeah ... guess I won't have to resub for a while. They announced they are not going to be implementing dungeon finder in wrath classic to "keep the sense of community the Classic playerbase wants" (lol)
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Apr 20, 2022 13:06
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i remember way back in vanilla i was playing a druid and since i was with some friends at the time i worked out a strategy where i'd fluidly shift roles to support either the tank or the healer. i'd bear offtank and we'd swap aggro on the mobs, when the warrior had aggro i'd shift back to caster and slap hots on both of us and sometimes dps before swapping back. i doubt it was optimal and it probably would have fallen off in later content (i don't think i ever got past mid level) but that sort of thing feels like it would be heresy now.
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Apr 20, 2022 13:32
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Ibram Gaunt posted:They announced they are not going to be implementing dungeon finder in wrath classic to "keep the sense of community the Classic playerbase wants" (lol) 
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Apr 20, 2022 13:41
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Ibram Gaunt posted:
They realised it's only grognards playing, so they're going to cater to that.
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Apr 20, 2022 13:42
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busalover posted:They realised it's only grognards playing, so they're going to cater to that. Which I think is going to backfire since Wrath was when the game really became accessible. Most of the clunky things from Vanilla and TBC were ironed out and raiding was extremely easy to get into with catch up mechanics etc. I can't see the "hardcore" crowd really sticking with it.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:05
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As someone who only played WoW before any expansions the idea that it was hardcore is very funny coming from OG MMOs but for a lot of people it must've been their first.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:07
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Groovelord Neato posted:As someone who only played WoW before any expansions the idea that it was hardcore is very funny coming from OG MMOs but for a lot of people it must've been their first. I agree entirely. WoW was only 'hardcore' in the sense that people had no idea wtf they were doing and lack of centralized information meant things were much more time consuming or difficult than intended. There's a reason why every raid just crumpled the day it opened in Classic.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:09
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lmao well that killed any interest in me trying WoTLK classic.
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Apr 20, 2022 15:24
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the merge dragons expansion looks neat and I’d try that out if it was for a different mmo sounds like the flight will be more like the GW2 griffon than the normal flying mounts
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Apr 20, 2022 15:37
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I have loving PTSD trauma from raiding drama and toxic pubbie grouping. So leveling up characters solo is about all I can tolerate in WoW. I doubt i'll bother to go back to WoW though anyways. I don't have the most current expansion and haven't played in years.
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Apr 20, 2022 15:45
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TERA is shutting down June 30.
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Apr 20, 2022 16:02
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How the hell is Rift still going?
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Apr 20, 2022 16:08
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Mr. Neutron posted:How the hell is Rift still going? I bet its not far behind.
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Apr 20, 2022 16:37
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It's a real shame. I had a fun 15-20 hours with TERA back in the day, and Sage is still one of the most fun healing classes I've ever played in an MMO. I think we're finally at the point where a full action MMORPG is truly viable with the technology available, even for non-localized internet markets like NA and EU, but my guess is that it'll take until the League MMO for us to see it. Mr. Neutron posted:How the hell is Rift still going? Most older tab-target MMOs cost peanuts to run in perpetuity. Whether they actually stay up mostly seems to be some combination of individual company whims and financial situation (cutting out "dead weight" products to look more appealing to shareholders).
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Apr 20, 2022 16:40
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"L4G ruined the social aspect of mmo games, we want people to be forming guilds and making friends to run instances, and solo players will fill up the overworld more so it isnt so barren!" *classic lacks L4G, turns out overworld questing is boring and all guilds use discord to talk anyways so in game is just as dead just with more toxicity in random groups* "This isn't fun, why isn't this fun, why isn't this 1999"
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Apr 20, 2022 17:12
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i played classic a bit and had some fun overworld interactions as a priest but i feel like if i wasn't a priest those opportunities wouldn't have opened up at all
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Apr 20, 2022 18:22
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I think removing dungeon finder is, to use a term, 'virtue signalling'. It won't actually solve any of the problems classic fans had about Wrath, and it won't actually improve the situation, but it will signal to the classic fans who dislike new things that things will be less new.
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Apr 20, 2022 18:39
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