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HopperUK posted:I mean dealing with constant abuse and creepy powerful men is likely to make a person a bit 'difficult'. Where difficult means assertive and firm and asserting boundaries. Oh absolutely, the labeling was a tactic by the powers that be to say "she won't let you gently caress her so don't bother hiring her" that's not to say those who got hosed were in any way at fault, more to say that those who didn't were also victims e: "hosed" is too generous
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Apr 23, 2022 14:08
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deety posted:I'm going to suggest avoiding phrases like "plastic bimbo" when talking about groupies, even when the point is to insult the excesses of the men who treated them badly. Terms like that helped to justify the victim blaming that you go on to talk about. As long as there's pop music (and I include emo, hardcore, glam rock or whatever in that) there will be men who see how it appeals to the vulnerable or confused teenage experience and leverage that into getting close to confused and vulnerable teenagers. I'm not sure if that's the chicken or the egg of why emotive, poppy music performed by men who make themselves appear less threatening with hairspray and eyeliner who then turn out to be abusers keeps circling back into rotation, but I will say any 30 year old singing about how daddy doesn't understand, be it in 1972 or 2019, will get my hackles raised.
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Apr 23, 2022 16:40
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Now give a non-male example. Why are you trying to frame it as a problem exclusive to women? We know the abuse and retaliations crossed gender and sexuality lines. Pretending it didn't is of disservice to the victims and, again, playing into assumptions that let abusers get away with abuse.
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Apr 23, 2022 18:09
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Now give a non-male example. Ali Larter.
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Apr 23, 2022 18:32
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pentyne posted:Ali Larter. Who? Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Why are you trying to frame it as a problem exclusive to women? We know the abuse and retaliations crossed gender and sexuality lines. Pretending it didn't is of disservice to the victims and, again, playing into assumptions that let abusers get away with abuse. lol we might know the abuse and retaliations crossed gender lines, but if you want to equate the volume and severity of abuse that men have to endure at the hands of women with the amout of abuse women have to endure at the hands of men, you are out of your mind. It's not exclusive to women but it's absolutely lopsided. Grendels Dad fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 18:33
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And? I was warning not to fall into assumptions and patterns of reaction that enable abuse, and the response was an insinuation of sexism and a dismissal of the male victims. Do you not see the issue here?
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Apr 23, 2022 19:00
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:And? I was warning not to fall into assumptions and patterns of reaction that enable abuse, and the response was an insinuation of sexism and a dismissal of the male victims. No, since the female victims outnumber the male ones, the women in power are far fever than the men in power, and general sexism is still A Thing so your attempts to equate the issues here is honestly quite troubling.
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Apr 23, 2022 19:21
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Grendels Dad posted:No, since the female victims outnumber the male ones, the women in power are far fever than the men in power, and general sexism is still A Thing so your attempts to equate the issues here is honestly quite troubling. Sexism absolutely means that more men are in power and so more men are in a position to perpetrate and evade the consequences of abuse, but to then draw the assumption that only men can be abusers or that women can be abused is an error. Brendan Fraser came forward as an abuse victim not long ago, and JK Rowling is currently lending her considerable influence to the TERF movement. People with power can abuse it, and people without (enough) power can be victims. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 20:01
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Grendels Dad posted:No, since the female victims outnumber the male ones, the women in power are far fever than the men in power, and general sexism is still A Thing so your attempts to equate the issues here is honestly quite troubling. This is some "explanation equals support" horseshit. Pointing out that something exists is not a demand that everyone treats it equally. This comes up repeatedly when people want to declare "oh yeah, X totally looks like a rapist/abuser" because it falls into the trope that only a certain class of people are the 'bad ones' and you end up perpetuating the problem by giving cover to anyone who is a rapist/abuser but is conventionally attractive or appears harmless by your standards. Terry Crews had to make a huge public statement over his harassment years later when he had power and clout to survive any fallout, and in response had a river of poo poo from other men and women mocking him for 'accepting' his abuse. You're literally part of the problem you claim to care about. pentyne fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 20:07
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Schwarzwald posted:Sexism absolutely means that more men are in power and so more men are in a position to perpetrate and evade the consequences of abuse, but to draw the assumption that only men can be abusers or that women can be abused is an error. Nobody did that. The poster who says they want to warn against this happening brought up Jared loving Leto as an example of male actors being labelled "difficult to work with" and last I checked he is not in any hurt for work.
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Apr 23, 2022 20:11
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It was an example of a difficult to work with actor actually existing in the context of saying that the label being applied was effective because arseholes are common in that industry. Being disingenuous because I picked one very prominent example isn't a rebuttal.
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Apr 23, 2022 20:53
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It was an example of a difficult to work with actor actually existing in the context of saying that the label being applied was effective because arseholes are common in that industry. Being disingenuous because I picked one very prominent example isn't a rebuttal. In what way is that label effective when speaking about actresses? I'd say the comparison is god-awful because the ways in which Chevey Chase and Jared Leto are difficult to work with are well documented and felt really misplaced in the discussion.
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Apr 23, 2022 20:55
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today on somethingawful: we're mad that the word "difficult" has been applied to a broad range of things
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Apr 23, 2022 22:12
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There are undoubtedly actresses who have had their careers sidelined by genuinely being hard to work with on a professional level (it's not like soaring egos and debilitating drug additions are exclusive to men). However: 1) outside of inner Hollywood circles it's hard to know who that actually applies to versus who got painted with that brush for daring to stand up for themselves, and 2) given the sheer prevalence of abuse and harassment in Hollywood casting it wouldn't be surprising for them to also have sexual abuse horror stories so trying to figure out who's who just winds up leading to people making fairly gross assumptions about people and situations they know very little about.
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Apr 23, 2022 23:26
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Alhazred posted:According to Gangs of London they have enough guns to form an army. But they primarily resolve things through elaborate karate fights. gently caress that show is so good.
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Apr 24, 2022 11:32
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I think people are forgetting that certain language is used and perpetuated in very specific ways to marginalize women. Calling a woman "difficult" is a lot different from calling a man "difficult". Hell, the word "hysterical" was straight up invented to paint women as overly emotional and prone to irrationality. When someone calls a male actor "difficult" people go "Oh he's just an rear end in a top hat." or even "That's just part of his process.". Now think about what people picture when a woman is called "difficult". Not even on a set just anywhere. In this context it's a very loaded word.
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Apr 25, 2022 23:40
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Well, male actors with bad reputations stemming from alleged violent behavior, out-of-control drug use, being sex pests*, etc. continue to get work until they die of old age. Women who do the same can't even count on making a soft landing into the cosmetics industry after they turn 30. * I kinda hate the term sex pest because it makes it sound cute, when it's usually rape, attempted rape, or stuff that would get normal people on a sex offender registry until they die.
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Apr 26, 2022 00:35
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CPL593H posted:I think people are forgetting that certain language is used and perpetuated in very specific ways to marginalize women. Calling a woman "difficult" is a lot different from calling a man "difficult". Hell, the word "hysterical" was straight up invented to paint women as overly emotional and prone to irrationality. When someone calls a male actor "difficult" people go "Oh he's just an rear end in a top hat." or even "That's just part of his process.". Now think about what people picture when a woman is called "difficult". Not even on a set just anywhere. In this context it's a very loaded word. Yep. Another thing to keep in mind is that shifting a subject towards how issues affect men is a common (and long-standing) tactic used to derail discussions of the ways that women are hurt by sexist nonsense. Decades of bad faith anti-feminist arguments have poisoned the well of "ok but men have also had problems with that thing you're talking about," so some folks are going to assume that anything along those lines is whataboutism unless there's a really clear point behind it.
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Apr 26, 2022 00:47
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This got me looking at the Talk page of Wikipedia articles, and it's quite apparent that users aren't happy with the Conservative tone of medical information there. The ''mania' page has just what you're describing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mania It's a pretty consistent pattern for any term you've asked yourself "but what does that mean? I don't feel that way." That, or the lovely Conservative idea is laundered into a redirect to some objective or professional topic. I also came across this anecdote in Only Child (redirected from the horseshit Only Child Syndrome), which is basically a Simpsons scene 
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Apr 26, 2022 01:04
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https://twitter.com/sunflxwervolsix/status/1518706417548640256?s=20&t=cu4gswX1MGe_61VlwCzW5g from what I can tell (I've watched Hassan's coverage of the trail) she is clearly a terrible person you would never want to date. But, Depp could easily have also been lovely to her. If both parties are abusive, what's the discussion around that lead? Don't hurt either career, but date at your own risk?
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Apr 26, 2022 21:39
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LionArcher posted:https://twitter.com/sunflxwervolsix/status/1518706417548640256?s=20&t=cu4gswX1MGe_61VlwCzW5g I thought this tweet was saying the lawyer objecting to a question Depp asked, not the question the lawyer himself asked. Also lol at the witnesses "but you asked the question" response to the objection
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Apr 26, 2022 21:47
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LionArcher posted:https://twitter.com/sunflxwervolsix/status/1518706417548640256?s=20&t=cu4gswX1MGe_61VlwCzW5g (Very) short video from our favorite legal expert on YouTube talking about this very topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynnBfUwkaMk Basically, he wasn't really objecting to the question he asked, but objected to the answer to the question. Which happened because he asked his question in an ambiguous way. It's a somewhat understandable gently caress up, and happens all the time, but also he still hosed up, and it doesn't make him look like a good lawyer.
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Apr 26, 2022 22:11
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LionArcher posted:https://twitter.com/sunflxwervolsix/status/1518706417548640256?s=20&t=cu4gswX1MGe_61VlwCzW5g From the coverage I've read of the trial, Depp was physically and verbally abusive to Heard on numerous occasions, and she retaliated against him with violence. I don't think it's a matter of both parties being abusive, I think it's a common case where a victim of abuse is not perfect and fights back in sometimes nasty ways. Depp has waged a very successful media campaign against Heard to paint her as cruel, vindictive and desperate for fame, and I think it's a terrible shame that it's worked so well.
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Apr 27, 2022 04:01
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  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 27, 2022 04:14
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Care to elaborate on your point?
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Apr 27, 2022 04:22
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Depp must have paid some bots to push this poo poo because it’s everywhere now. About how sad he looks videos coming up as you mindlessly scroll thru videos on Facebook. Normies sharing memes about how Amber Heard is a monster and look at what she’s doing to poor Johnny. It’s really loving gross. Also a million MRAs are screeching from the mountaintops about this too. It’s so hosed up this is being aired out in public.
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Apr 27, 2022 05:05
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I'm not a bot! I think they're both messy and trashy. I've followed the case fairly loosely, and generally dislike Depp. It's more easy to sympathise with Depp as I'm also a man who's been abused by a partner, but I'm actually not all-in on Johnny Innocent. The Musk connection is relevant, as they seemed to get together pretty soon after, and he's similarly trashy. Epstein's ghost haunts the rich at every turn, which is very very relevant to the thread. Absolutely agree it's hosed to see it aired out in public. The MRAs are DYING for a woman to be evil. My guess, and it'd be a guess, is that they're both horrible and toxic. Maybe they just drive each other nuts. There was nearly no reason for them to stay together. He owns an island. The competition to see who is worse is kind of pointless if he's hitting her and she's hitting him. well why not fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 05:15
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I haven't been following the Johnny Depp thing but it's not like people that are lovely can't also be abused by a second lovely person. It's kind of like how everyone elevated Melania Trump for a while until she was openly mocking undocumented immigrants in concentration camps. No one deserves being abused but that doesn't absolve her of being a huge piece of poo poo.
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Apr 27, 2022 06:06
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Yeah, the whole 'helpless victim who must be unquestioningly defended' thing is its own kind of well-demonstrated toxic. And really just another manifestation of madonna-whore syndrome.
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Apr 27, 2022 06:45
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I feel a little bad for Melania just because I don't think she thought she'd be married to Trump this long. She saw him eat once and thought "yeah, I can do this for 5ish years" and it's 17 years later and she's somehow not a widow. She's still a terrible person, but I always feel bad for someone Trump screws in a deal.
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Apr 27, 2022 06:48
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They seem to both be abusive people, equally as horrible as each other honestly.
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Apr 27, 2022 06:58
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My take on the Depp / Heard situation, because obviously everyone needs it, is that they're likely both inclined to abuse and they managed to bring out the worst in each other. There's plenty out there to suggest both of them gave as much as they got, and not just in defense or as a reaction. And it feels like there's certain people who really need one side or the other to be The Clear-Cut Bad Guy for ideological reasons, when the actual case seems far messier than that.
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Apr 27, 2022 07:35
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Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown.
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Apr 27, 2022 07:38
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It seems very noticeable to me that extremely pro Depp stuff is getting signal boosted through the roof right now. He always seemed like a chaotic mess of a human but all this has made me see him in a much different light. The kind of campaign that has been waged against Heard is calculated and controlling. Not the work of a drunk who can't control his emotions, which is how he is often presented. I mean, either way it's abusive.
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Apr 27, 2022 10:25
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Wow lots of Heard defenders here
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Apr 27, 2022 10:34
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Well, male actors with bad reputations stemming from alleged violent behavior, out-of-control drug use, being sex pests*, etc. continue to get work until they die of old age. This is a dilemma that happens in dealing with sexual assault generally, people have visceral reactions to words like “rape” or “sexual assault” that will cause them to reflexively deny cases of it “oh no I/my friend couldn’t be a rapist”. So it’s tempting to soften the language to things like “sex pest” to get people to even admit that something happened. But then that runs the risk of trivialising it. Vintersorg posted:Depp must have paid some bots to push this poo poo because it’s everywhere now. About how sad he looks videos coming up as you mindlessly scroll thru videos on Facebook. Normies sharing memes about how Amber Heard is a monster and look at what she’s doing to poor Johnny. It’s really loving gross. Depp doesn’t really need bots, he comes off well on the stand because he’s a famously charsmatic actor. A lot of the stuff that goes viral is him coming out with funny lines or making Heards lawyers look like clowns and it’s like, well yeah he’s Johnny Depp. massive spider fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 11:11
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massive spider posted:This is a dilemma that happens in dealing with sexual assault generally, people have visceral reactions to words like “rape” or “sexual assault” that will cause them to reflexively deny cases of it “oh no I/my friend couldn’t be a rapist”. So it’s tempting to soften the language to things like “sex pest” to get people to even admit that something happened. But then that runs the risk of trivialising it. No theres many times he doesn't come off well at all, just stutters and stammers his way around non answers. What gets boosted to social media are his good moments, not say the moment where they were playing a tape of Heard shouting for Depp to get off her and his defence for not getting off her was that he 'didn't hear her'. Those don't make for cute little fan cams. https://twitter.com/justmights/status/1518616016263303169?t=JM0jzzwSRKZo5U6TDMhoIA&s=19 https://twitter.com/Geekthedog/status/1518204202077597696?t=Y0s1J2vc4VI0gx9NXklW9A&s=19
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Apr 27, 2022 11:51
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DrVenkman posted:No theres many times he doesn't come off well at all, just stutters and stammers his way around non answers. What gets boosted to social media are his good moments, not say the moment where they were playing a tape of Heard shouting for Depp to get off her and his defence for not getting off her was that he 'didn't hear her'. Those don't make for cute little fan cams. Thank you for this, the endless “meme moments” in favor of Depp make it hard to find counter-examples.
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Apr 27, 2022 13:42
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There's no such thing as mutual abuse. UK courts already found 12 instances where Depp abused Heard. Even if she's a lovely person, that doesn't mean lovely things haven't happened to her. Also, this trial isn't about whether the abuse happened, it's whether Heard's op-ed was the sole reason Johnny Depp lost work thereafter -- even though he's been a liability on set for years now.
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Apr 27, 2022 15:25
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I'm glad someone said it, and thanks for the examples I have no doubt Amber Heard is as toxic as we're told, but there's a blatant, heavy push to make Depp the wronged innocent in this and it's a bit hard to see social media friends who were all about #metoo suddenly pushing every snippet of this farce. But we're not talking about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock, so that's something I guess...
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Apr 27, 2022 15:28
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