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Josef bugman posted:It doesn't, belladonna is a herb and arsenic is natural. Natural stuff isn't great just because it's natural. Why do you think that’s what I’m saying? It’s not what I’m saying at all. I just really, really hate pastoralism and degrowthers. I bring up Sri Lanka as an example of what that type of lazy thinking causes, not to say we shouldn’t try to improve anything ever
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Apr 24, 2022 18:59
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Indeed, the approaching collapse of civilization is something to be mourned, not celebrated.
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Apr 24, 2022 19:05
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No Twitter though. So thats pretty cool
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Apr 24, 2022 19:50
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thetoughestbean posted:Why do you think that’s what I’m saying? It’s not what I’m saying at all. I just don't have the same intrinsic reaction tbh. Seeing the world as weird and broken and "ahhh" and wanting to return to an imagined perfect time should be pitied. To me at least, it doesn't make me that angry.
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Apr 24, 2022 20:07
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Josef bugman posted:wanting to return to an imagined perfect time should be pitied I see the world as broken because *flails at the entire state of the world*. But that doesn't mean we can't build a better future
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Apr 24, 2022 20:55
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Josef bugman posted:I just don't have the same intrinsic reaction tbh. Seeing the world as weird and broken and "ahhh" and wanting to return to an imagined perfect time should be pitied. To me at least, it doesn't make me that angry. I really don’t like when people retreat into fantasy rather than deal with the world as it exists. The world’s always been weird and broken, just in different ways, and there are many things we have now we should be grateful for
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Apr 24, 2022 21:25
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thetoughestbean posted:People don’t understand that organic doesn’t mean always good Correct, it means "includes carbon in its molecular structure"
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Apr 24, 2022 23:47
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In New Zealand we are having problems with fertiliser and excess nitrogen from animal waste runoff into our waterways due to industrialised farming. It’s a complex problem, and a lot of it is to do with clear-cutting land, causing soil depletion that then requires soluble nutrients. But due to the reduced soil stability because of no permanent deep roots, things run off and change the rivers, resulting in toxic and invasive algae, fish and eel die-off, and bank erosion. Yes we need industrial farming, because not everyone has a productive back yard or the time and physical ability to produce things on it. No, I’m not a scientist, but there have to be ways to improve the situation. Isn’t this sort of intense monocropping how the dust bowl came about in the states?
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Apr 25, 2022 00:08
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docbeard posted:Correct, it means "includes carbon in its molecular structure" It means a 20% markup
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Apr 25, 2022 00:09
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I saw "organic wine" at Trader Joe's for $5 so the term feels absolutely meaningless. If that includes a markup then it makes me worried.
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Apr 25, 2022 02:39
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Shithouse Dave posted:Yes we need industrial farming, because not everyone has a productive back yard or the time and physical ability to produce things on it. No, I’m not a scientist, but there have to be ways to improve the situation. Isn’t this sort of intense monocropping how the dust bowl came about in the states? There's a lot of interesting stuff that can be done at a large scale like cover cropping, crop rotation, mixing crops and grazing, and rotational grazing to help improve grasslands. But it's hard to get away from current systems when it requires a change in equipment and a certain level of risk while farmers are already in debt for the equipment they are running.
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Apr 25, 2022 07:00
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thetoughestbean posted:I really don’t like when people retreat into fantasy rather than deal with the world as it exists. The world’s always been weird and broken, just in different ways, and there are many things we have now we should be grateful for im dealing with the world as it exists dont worry https://twitter.com/VortexSophia/status/1517729836399312897 (Norway) https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1517140237624872963 (America) https://twitter.com/RationalWiki/status/1504064605815033857 (UK) Back before 1940 u could just transition and got a cool newspaper article written about how u were pretty cool, but then the nazis went and burned the hirschfeld institute as their first book burning, and put trans people in camps, and here we are
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Apr 25, 2022 12:26
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I just wanted to say thank you for the big effort post a bit ago, informative, if very saddening.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:31
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Josef bugman posted:I just wanted to say thank you for the big effort post a bit ago, informative, if very saddening. np! it gives me a sick twisted pleasure to write poo poo like that, also gives me an excuse to refresh my knowledge on stuff!
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Apr 25, 2022 12:52
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It is wild that the Institute for Sexual Science was working on hormone therapy for trans people in the 1920s. It is kinda unfortunate that they were doing it in the absolute dawn of hormonal research and they were doing John Brinkley poo poo like injecting blended ovaries into trans women, but their heart was in the right place.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:55
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Gripweed posted:It is wild that the Institute for Sexual Science was working on hormone therapy for trans people in the 1920s. It is kinda unfortunate that they were doing it in the absolute dawn of hormonal research and they were doing John Brinkley poo poo like injecting blended ovaries into trans women, but their heart was in the right place. What's wild to me that is relatively new is that trans people were supported in the UK, up until the 1970s. tl;dr: Trans people were accepted in Britain up to the 1970s until the relatives of a rich trans man did a court case to sue for his inherited estate as the eldest man of the family. The trans man lost and after that the court case was buried. As a result, in a later court case, a judge got a trans woman up on the bench and refused to acknowledge the 5 or so gynacological experts that said her vaginoplasty was completely normal and indistinguishable from a cis woman's vagina, and ruled against medical experts lol. Article posted:“I knew that in the past, trans people had corrected their birth certificates,” she says. “All the way through up to 1970, the path was: self-identify, get affirmative medical care, correct your birth certificate, and live equally. After 1970, that’s gone.” https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/secret-court-case-50-years-ago-robbed-transgender-people-rights-1291857
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Apr 25, 2022 13:10
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Rich people ruin something?!? 
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Apr 25, 2022 13:14
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Thanks for the effort posts, alexandrio I don't know enough about farming to have an informed opinion on it, but I do think that it is just about the height of ignorance to believe that anything new is good and everything in the past is bad. I have a sneaking suspicion that kind of opinion is an attempt to lionize a lovely lifestyle, but who knows I mean if you look around and truly believe that this is the way humans should exist then lol
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Apr 25, 2022 15:59
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Manager Hoyden posted:Thanks for the effort posts, alexandrio Who in the thread said that everything new is good?
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Apr 25, 2022 20:06
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thetoughestbean posted:Who in the thread said that everything new is good? You Do you have a carbon monoxide leak or something It wasn't that long ago
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Apr 25, 2022 20:12
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Manager Hoyden posted:You Look at what I’ve said, I’ve said that pastoralism is bad and that people shouldn’t retreat into pleasant fantasies. That doesn’t mean I’ve said that modernity is flawless
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Apr 25, 2022 20:20
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Okay what does retreat into pleasant fantasies mean though
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Apr 25, 2022 20:34
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alexandriao posted:What's wild to me that is relatively new is that trans people were supported in the UK, up until the 1970s. Yeah. The composer Angela Morley (who wrote the music for Hancock's Half Hour, the orchestral score for Watership Down, worked with the Sherman brothers and did a lot of the arrangements for John Williams' scores in the 70s and 80s) transitioned in 1970 and by far the most common reaction seems to have been: "So you're a woman called Angela now? OK. Do you want to write a score for my film, Angela?" It's remarkable, and depressing, to imagine how that would go today.
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Apr 25, 2022 21:28
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Manager Hoyden posted:Okay what does retreat into pleasant fantasies mean though In this case I mean using lazy thinking like “all we have to do is return to a pre-industrial model of agriculture” or thinking “things would be so much better if it were the past”—engaging in a fictional world where there are simple, easy answers rather than the real one
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Apr 25, 2022 22:17
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thetoughestbean posted:In this case I mean using lazy thinking like “all we have to do is return to a pre-industrial model of agriculture” or thinking “things would be so much better if it were the past”—engaging in a fictional world where there are simple, easy answers rather than the real one Ill agree with you on the industrial technology but, but I don't think that people who say "things would be so much better if it were the past" are literally saying that everyone should build a time machine and live in a past era exactly as it existed at the time It's honestly kind of exhausting in online discourse when one person says that something was good about some time I'm the past and the akshuallys pour in about "but people were racist then" or "babies died a lot" Well yeah no poo poo no one is saying that medical technology or social progress should be thrown out the window
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Apr 25, 2022 22:24
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Manager Hoyden posted:Ill agree with you on the industrial technology but, but I don't think that people who say "things would be so much better if it were the past" are literally saying that everyone should build a time machine and live in a past era exactly as it existed at the time It’s not (just) that “well babies died a lot” it’s that the past was not a time of less stress or less work. People like to throw around the idea that medieval peasants worked less hours per day than modern people, as if the work they did wasn’t backbreaking and their lives much harder than ours. Marx even said that the capitalist method of production was a marked improvement on the feudal one! As for no one saying that medical technology should be thrown out the window, I assume you’ve not met degrowthers or people who push home remedies to everything over seeing a doctor
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Apr 25, 2022 22:57
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Oh well those people are super dumb then I will say that I believe humans in general would be happier if they could give up their screens, live in green places, and use their energy to create If that's pastoralism then I guess I'm one of the bad ones
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Apr 25, 2022 23:03
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Manager Hoyden posted:Oh well those people are super dumb then So how does everyone get to that stage? Where is all this land going to come from where everyone has enough productive land to produce what they need?
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Apr 25, 2022 23:21
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There have been (somewhat flawed, but the best quality data we have) anthropological texts on various isolated communities that show that those people, while they have a harder life, have qualitatively less stress. The one book I read like 5 years ago basically theorized it as because of child-rearing differences, and cultural differences. For example (stuff that stuck out to me that I've remembered): - children who couldn't walk were basically always in skin to skin contact with an adult - when a man got an injury -- say an animal bite, it was considered normal for him to basically bawl his eyes out in the arms of his mate, or mother while getting patched up. other injuries were taken accordingly, either lightly and laughed at, or just fully expressing the pain in the moment - the idea that someone wouldn't want to work (as in the case of one man who moved in to live with the tribe) was hilarious to the people there. there was no pressure to work, but the entire group was relieved when the newcomer, after 2 years of de-stressing, finally decided to plan and set up his own little farm - the women and men were confident in their ability, specifically navigating what we would consider treacherous terrain, because they'd been doing it as a child, and nobody had gone "hey!! this is dangerous!!". Everyone knew it was dangerous, but they also trusted themselves to be able to do it and know what to avoid doing
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Apr 25, 2022 23:23
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The thing is, while not all of that may be entirely true (There is a certain amount of "the noble savage" of it all, despite the researcher taking great pains to avoid it), the fact that there are marked differences in stressors in other cultures when compared to western society, and the fact that there are often extremely marked differences in reaction between western cultures and other cultures, isn't really up for debate as a whole. Its pretty well supported across most of anthropology (it's in most anthro 102 textbooks). It makes a fair bit of sense that say, letting children "cry out", putting children in the care of random strangers, and hundreds of years of slapping children would influence a culture. Stress is epigenetic, stuff like how much cortisol your body makes in response to stressors, and how we are taught implicitly through culture and our parents to react to things, will have an effect on a society. The question is, now that we have this knowledge, what should we do about it?
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Apr 25, 2022 23:29
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Apr 26, 2022 00:02
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gettin back on track w the thread title PHUO: Everything is political.
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Apr 26, 2022 00:57
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It ain't
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Apr 26, 2022 02:12
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BalloonFish posted:Yeah. The composer Angela Morley (who wrote the music for Hancock's Half Hour, the orchestral score for Watership Down, worked with the Sherman brothers and did a lot of the arrangements for John Williams' scores in the 70s and 80s) transitioned in 1970 and by far the most common reaction seems to have been: "So you're a woman called Angela now? OK. Do you want to write a score for my film, Angela?" I'll be honest, I find this a little bit hard to believe, or maybe hard to believe that it was typical. When I came out as trans my dad was incredibly worried about my safety, because someone he went to high school with in 1960s Southern California came out as trans and was horribly treated, ostracized by her family, etc. Obviously we're talking about very different places, but the cultures are not so different that trans people being a complete non issue at the time makes sense to me. DeadlyMuffin has a new favorite as of 03:41 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 03:08
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Yeah what we have here is a combination of fantasy and appeal to antiquity
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Apr 26, 2022 14:31
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Manager Hoyden posted:Yeah what we have here is a combination of fantasy and appeal to antiquity In which instance? Sorry there seem to be two conversations going on and I am just a bit confused!
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Apr 26, 2022 14:40
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The idea that some ephemeral they consisting of primitive cultures or any people we don't actually observe directly were/are all wonderful hugfests that happened to share all of one's personal values and rejected all of the ones you don't like
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Apr 26, 2022 14:47
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The egg mix for french toast should have black pepper in it.
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Apr 26, 2022 15:33
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treating everything as political just makes everything boring, it's like saying "everything is sex", it's just a truism that tells you nothing not being able to watch a movie or whatever without referring to some sophomoric political theory just makes you a dullard, it just acts as a barrier between yourself and things about it that you might have enjoyed on a more personal level otherwise
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Apr 26, 2022 17:23
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Shibawanko posted:treating everything as political just makes everything boring, it's like saying "everything is sex", it's just a truism that tells you nothing How so? Being able to interpret the world requires looking at it through a variety of lenses, saying that you can't see politics in things seems a little weird if you want to understand stuff. Plus our very concept of what we "enjoy" and even who we are is informed very heavily by the culture and politics of the world around us.
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Apr 26, 2022 17:32
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