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emo-ignorance posted:There's no such thing as mutual abuse. According to whom? Not snarky, just never heard this assertion before.
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Apr 27, 2022 17:52
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Crackbone posted:According to whom? Not snarky, just never heard this assertion before. quote:Domestic violence survivors might be assaultive, but that’s not mutual abuse. That’s reactionary abuse. “They don’t want power and control. They want the power and control to stop,” says David Cropp, a retired sergeant with the Sacramento police and an expert witness consultant for domestic violence. From here: https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/identifying-abuse/is-mutual-abuse-real
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Apr 27, 2022 18:19
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emo-ignorance posted:There's no such thing as mutual abuse. how do you mean?
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Apr 27, 2022 18:28
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Violent resistence and self-defense / retaliation is not mutual abuse, but that does not prevent two abusive people from being in a relationship and occasionally swapping roles as victim and victimizer. Based on the long timeline and the number of various incidents and stories it's hard to see either party's behavior as solely reactionary.
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Apr 27, 2022 19:43
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Blame-shifting is an extremely common element of abuse -- it's part of DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender). For example, "I didn't abuse you, you're crazy, you abused me." From my understanding, Depp's most publicized incidents of Heard abusing him came from moments where he initiated. Like when she hit him, it was because he was about to throw her sister down a flight of stairs. When she allegedly cut off a chunk of his finger (there are texts to his doctor saying he did it himself), it was during a three-day bender where he was smashing bottles and destroying windows. In Why Does He Do That? Lundy Bancroft goes into this (this is on page 61 of my paperback): quote:Emile, a physically violent client with whom I worked, gave me the following account of his worst assault on his wife: "One day Tanya went way overboard with her mouth, and I got so pissed off that I grabbed her by the neck and put her up against the wall." With his voice filled with indignation, he said, "Then she tried to knee me in the balls! How would you like it if a woman did that to you?? Of course I lashed out. And when I swung my hand down, my fingernails made a long cut across her face. What the hell did she expect?"
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Apr 27, 2022 20:16
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Skwirl posted:I feel a little bad for Melania just because I don't think she thought she'd be married to Trump this long. She saw him eat once and thought "yeah, I can do this for 5ish years" and it's 17 years later and she's somehow not a widow. scuttlebutt was she was having an affair with a tiffany's security director and planned a quiet divorce after trump lost the election. whoops!
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Apr 28, 2022 08:27
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Metis of the Hallways posted:From the coverage I've read of the trial, Depp was physically and verbally abusive to Heard on numerous occasions, and she retaliated against him with violence. I don't think it's a matter of both parties being abusive, I think it's a common case where a victim of abuse is not perfect and fights back in sometimes nasty ways. Depp has waged a very successful media campaign against Heard to paint her as cruel, vindictive and desperate for fame, and I think it's a terrible shame that it's worked so well. I've watched enough of the trial (and a lot of Hasan's reactions to it) that I think at this point Depp was toxic in the relationship (and possibly abusive, but she clearly instigated a poo poo ton/was also an abuser. There's a twitter thread "proving" he's the monster here by an entertainment writer, (Roslyn Talusan) but as Hassan did today, when you take a second look at the thread it's actually not accurate and a lot of her points are trash points that are not even honest about the events it covers. There is a fair amount of evidence that she was obviously verbally abusive to him though, and allegedly physically abusive as well. I don't give a poo poo about his fans, or him getting to keep making pirates movies or whatever the gently caress. My “personality disorder is obviously here” radar is going off strong watching her at the trial. He may be, but my read on him seems way more likely to be addict who's an out of touch rich/famous person. Edited because it’s not relevant. And I don’t think he’s like, a good dude. It was obviously a toxic relationship. The 12 cases thing brought up earlier isn't as clear cut either, but again, Hassan gets into the weeds of it from today's broadcast. It's covered around the 3 hr mark from the twitch stream. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 02:57
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edit, covered i above post.
LionArcher fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 03:03
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LionArcher posted:Again, I'm Depp sucks. I actually know a crew person who worked with among other celebs him, Halle Berry and Hugh Jackman. The person said Depp was clearly just off in his own world/drugs but polite, Berry was very stuck up celebrity at the height of her fame, and Jackman (this was after I think one or two x-men) was an utter gentleman to everyone. This is a completely useless point to bring up in this discussion, about on the level of Alan Tudyk saying Joss Whedon never was a creepy racist philanderer around him.
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Apr 29, 2022 04:07
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Grendels Dad posted:This is a completely useless point to bring up in this discussion, about on the level of Alan Tudyk saying Joss Whedon never was a creepy racist philanderer around him. You’re right and I edited it out.
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Apr 29, 2022 04:17
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Who is Hassan? edit: Oh, a twitch streamer? I don't really get why you're putting so much stock in his opinions in particular? You say the 12 incidents of Depp's abuse against Heard are not legit because Hassan said so, and that's it? Metis of the Chat Thread fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 04:28
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Metis of the Hallways posted:Who is Hassan? dirtbag leftist streamer you'll find with Twitch personalities, people namedrop them all the time like "Cher" like you're supposed to know who they are
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Apr 29, 2022 04:31
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I see. Personally, I place much more stock in a judge's ruling that 12 incidents of assault did happen than on some random politics streamer's read, or a poster's "personality disorder radar".
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Apr 29, 2022 04:43
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Alan Smithee posted:dirtbag leftist streamer Political commentator who has very well thought out opinions on a ton of issues. Huge friend and advocate on trans issues, sex workers and so on. A leftist versus liberal for sure. Basically, he’s a modern day “good” version of John Stewart. Why exactly is he a dirtbag?
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Apr 29, 2022 04:45
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all these Internet Personality freaks are just kicking up dust about it so they have plausible deniability for their own crimes
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Apr 29, 2022 04:47
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Metis of the Hallways posted:I see. Personally, I place much more stock in a judge's ruling that 12 incidents of assault did happen than on some random politics streamer's read, or a poster's "personality disorder radar". He sucks. But this about her being terrible too. Both things can be true. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 04:51
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LionArcher posted:Political commentator who has very well thought out opinions on a ton of issues. Huge friend and advocate on trans issues, sex workers and so on. A leftist versus liberal for sure. Basically, he’s a modern day “good” version of John Stewart. He's someone who figured out how to market to leftists while not actually seeming to care much about what he preaches and is largely doing it to get rich. Basically a left version of most right-wing commentators. He's better than those types because at least he's making money off advocating for "please don't kill trans people" so I'd put that above the real scumbags but he's still paycheck first. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 04:52
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ImpAtom posted:He's someone who figured out how to market to leftists while not actually seeming to care much about what he preaches and is largely doing it to get rich. Basically a left version of most right-wing commentators. Lol yeah no. He cares a great deal if you watch him for any length of time.
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Apr 29, 2022 04:56
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LionArcher posted:Lol yeah no. He cares a great deal if you watch him for any length of time. He cares a great deal about the millions of dollars he makes, yes.
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Apr 29, 2022 04:57
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b-but... the man in the tv says he's my friend!
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Apr 29, 2022 05:01
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ImpAtom posted:He cares a great deal about the millions of dollars he makes, yes. You’re making a tired and old bad faith argument. And it’s also an utter derail for my original point. But that’s fine, you were never going to change your mind. Depp bad. Having money bad. Got it.
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Apr 29, 2022 05:08
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LionArcher posted:You’re making a tired and old bad faith argument. And it’s also an utter derail for my original point. But that’s fine, you were never going to change your mind. Depp bad. Having money bad. Got it. I am of the belief both Depp and Heard are lovely people, the same as you. I have no idea where this came from.
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Apr 29, 2022 05:11
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Metis of the Hallways posted:Who is Hassan? And this should be reiterated, the 12 incidents of abuse which caused Depp to sue to Sun over - a newspaper with a reputation in the mud, in the British courts where the person doing the suing, i.e., Depp in this case, in a defamation trial has the inside track the entire time.
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Apr 29, 2022 05:14
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LionArcher posted:You’re making a tired and old bad faith argument. And it’s also an utter derail for my original point. But that’s fine, you were never going to change your mind. Depp bad. Having money bad. Got it. On the one hand, I think ImpAtom's point about Hassan's motivation is stupid because 1) how can they tell, and b) what does it matter? On the other hand, your initial post kinda tried to shift the blame more on Heard as you claimed he wasn't physically abusing her, and your reply to 12 legally documented cases that say otherwise was "You are never going to change your mind." That's not going to cut it.
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Apr 29, 2022 05:18
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LionArcher posted:Edit Never mind. You were never going to change your mind. Oh cmon. I'm of the opinion that they might both be abusive people and I'm unsure if there is a main 'abuser and victim' roles here. But a court judge is wrong cos ' Hassan said so' is some post I'd expect to see from a 14 year old on reddit, not here. If you want to go over the points that convinced you sure, but otherwise no one cares how much you stan some twitch streamer.
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Apr 29, 2022 07:38
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i think we should replace all legal systems with trial by twitch streamer
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Apr 29, 2022 08:02
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R. Guyovich posted:i think we should replace all legal systems with trial by twitch streamer Cheer100 Cheer100 Cheer100 HANG HIM KEKW Edit: Looking forward to seeing a 100% VTuber Supreme Court in 2050 AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 08:08
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I like Hasan, but he's bought into the shilling by Depp stans. The front page of Reddit gets bombarded with easy headlines 'Doctor PROVES Heard has personality disorders' etc and a surprising number of people uncritically eat it up. People still think this is a trial about if he's an abuser. It's not. A court found veracity in multiple claims (How easily people forget that Ellen Barkin came to the UK to testify that Depp indeed has a temper and threw a bottle of wine at her head in a rage). This trial is simply about making her look as bad as possible. Currently its his turn, but when things flip and its the defences turn, I wonder what kind of stories we'll see then. Its going to be endless TikToks of Depp looking sad and how mean and vindictive her lawyers are. The case isn't about winning for him (because they would need to prove that an op-ed she wrote led to him losing roles) its about destroying her. I say this as someone who last week in this thread had a pretty different opinion on things.
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Apr 29, 2022 08:17
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edogawa rando posted:And this should be reiterated, the 12 incidents of abuse which caused Depp to sue to Sun over - a newspaper with a reputation in the mud, in the British courts where the person doing the suing, i.e., Depp in this case, in a defamation trial has the inside track the entire time. While I won't comment on abuse in the Depp/Heard relationship specifically, I will say that this talking point isn't great because it assumes that everyone is equal before British law. Yes, on paper, their libel laws are very beneficial to the plaintiff, but this is designed to protect the powerful, not give people a reliable defence against the country's hideously deceptive and abusive print media. Papers like the Sun have excellent legal teams, strong connections with the establishment, and decades of experience with fielding libel complaints from the people they harass and defame. Even a rich celebrity like Depp has more of an uphill struggle against them than a simple reading of the law might suggest.
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Apr 29, 2022 09:55
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It's also kind of annoying because "A judge says X, that means no one can believe otherwise" is kind of a terrible thing to push. I get the argument, but I also remember a lot of reporting at the time being surprised by the judgment  . And at some point you're getting into Sorkin-style "OJ Simpson is 100% innocent because the system said so" stuff.
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Apr 29, 2022 10:00
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For sure, I'm not saying to blindly trust the decisions of legal systems everywhere. I just want to push back against the idea that Heard instigated everything, or that she's a uniquely monstrous person, or it's just a matter of mutual toxicity and we should wash our hands of both of them. I think reading that earlier judgment is a much clearer way to understand exactly what Depp and Heard were both accused of than taking your opinions from a Twitch streamer interpreting live legal proceedings.
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Apr 29, 2022 10:36
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:It's also kind of annoying because "A judge says X, that means no one can believe otherwise" is kind of a terrible thing to push. I get the argument, but I also remember a lot of reporting at the time being surprised by the judgment Well, it was in response to someone saying "Depp is less of an abuser because this Twitch guy said so."
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Apr 29, 2022 10:39
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:It's also kind of annoying because "A judge says X, that means no one can believe otherwise" is kind of a terrible thing to push. I get the argument, but I also remember a lot of reporting at the time being surprised by the judgment No one is saying that though. Its one thing to be saying you have little faith in the UK justice system, or that the Sun has such strong sway they would of course win (I actually challenge this as they have lost a lot of libel cases in UK courts against people far less powerful than Depp). But this argument was 'my favourite twitch streamer said so' They didn't even provide the arguments the streamer put forward, are we expected to go and sit through some 8 hour stream to find out?
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Apr 29, 2022 10:46
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This really isn't the thread to litigate this, and there's a massive push in general to support Depp a so its probably better for everyone to step back and let this play out, then starting delivering their hot takes on the outcome. I'm not really going to take some big name twitch streamer at face value when social media is clogging up with sound bites and video bits all making it seem like Depp is running victory laps around her and Heard's lawyers are face-planting into a pile of poo poo every time they ask a question. The only social media person I'd be willing to listen to at this point would be Legal Eagle presuming he explains wrt legal rules and points of order and puts everything in context. The whole "Heard's lawyer objects to his own question ROFLCOPTER!!!" turns out to be something pretty common in legal cases when a witness decides to choose how to interpret a remotely ambiguous statement for their own agenda. Everything getting blasted over twitter in this case is absent context and framed to make Depp a unfairly maligned troubled soul and I feel like the actual court notes are going to represent a completely different reality of this case.
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Apr 29, 2022 11:52
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AceOfFlames posted:Cheer100 Cheer100 Cheer100 HANG HIM KEKW UWU Abortion is CRINGE :poggers:
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Apr 29, 2022 13:47
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https://twitter.com/drugproblem/status/1519788430334447616?s=21&t=sIQaV9iq6UJf0KQn0kzx5Q I hadn’t considered this, because I’m dumb.
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Apr 29, 2022 17:53
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thrawn527 posted:https://twitter.com/drugproblem/status/1519788430334447616?s=21&t=sIQaV9iq6UJf0KQn0kzx5Q Yeah. Honestly this is a part I really don’t like. Predators who have money will see this trial and the “success of it” as an excuse to harass people they’ve hurt. The people who have defended her hard have made this point from the beginning, and they’re right on this point. Okay. I’ll take a different approach today. No Hassan references, other than to say, he wasn’t watching clips, he was watching sections (hour here, three hours there) of the full trail. The testimony that I’ve watched has covered several major points. A lot of the “help” has basically (I’m summarizing here) stated they never saw Depp be aggressive with her, and that on several dates where she claimed to have injures they did not see anything. Again, could be make up, eye witness not being reliable. But, that included her own assistant. The audio tapes (numerous) cover her gaslighting him a poo poo ton, and clearly abusive behavior. Her mocking him for being a victim of domestic violence, and even saying “who’s going to believe you?” While she laughs. Her either making GBS threads in or placing poo poo on his side of the bed. If he’s as violent as she made him out to be, I have never known a victim of domestic violence to fight back like that. Now again, who knows, everyone reacts differently, but that is the kind of behavior of an abuser playing mind games. Her repeatedly egging him on to fight back and that he’s not a man because he doesn’t wanna get into a fight and he wants to leave the room. On those phone calls and recordings he talks repeatedly about wanting to leave altercations versus engage. Last two points: yes his psychologist he hired yesterday on the stand claimed she had the traits of someone with a personality disorder, and yes that doc gets paid to make those claims, but I’ve had the misfortune of knowing somebody who 100% also had a personality disorder, and it matches. When you’ve been close to an abuser that’s similar (but not a direct victim yourself) you see the pattern. This included one of AH former best friends telling a story about them in a grocery store shopping and out of nowhere AH struck her across the face. Lastly, the British court case thing was never good evidence. 10 of the 12 incidents were her being violent with him, and the judge stating “oh you were just defending yourself I’m sure you poor thing”. We also have a pattern with her. She attacked an ex girlfriend, the cops were called. Later on the charges were dropped, but she claimed the cop was homophobic which was why they were there. The cop was a lesbian. Lastly, the op Ed she wrote was co written by the ACLU, at the height of the metoo. Part of this was she promised to donate half of the 7 million she got from Depp settlement to them. She later gave on,y 1.5 million, and of that, half was paid by Elon Musk, who she was hooking up with. Again. I don’t think he’s without fault. He’s an actor. Of course he’s charming on the stand. I’m guessing at some point he did hit her. But what we’ve seen so far is one person being far more toxic in the relationship trying to paint one person as a monster. We also have several of his long time ex partners claiming he was never close to abusive with them. Again a pattern. From what I’ve seen, he was a victim of abuse, and she was too. A toxic relationship. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 18:43
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Metis of the Hallways posted:Personally, I place much more stock in a judge's ruling that 12 incidents of assault did happen than on some random lovely politics streamer's read, or a bad poster's "personality disorder radar".  completely
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Apr 29, 2022 18:47
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The case as a whole is too much to get into for me cause I don't know anything, I just wanna say real quick that people can internalize a lot of weird poo poo, so a cop being lesbian doesnt really apply re: whether they did something homophobic
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Apr 29, 2022 18:51
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It's worth pointing out that all the witnesses called to the stand so far have been from the plaintiff's side -- of course they're going to claim they didn't see any abuse. They are there to prove the plaintiff's case. When the defense presents their case next week, they will likely call witnesses who testify that they did see Depp abuse Heard. Also, if we're using the creepiness/weirdness of actions to prove one's abusiveness (which I'm not necessarily against), what are we to make of Depp dipping his bleeding finger in paint to scrawl messages on the mirror accusing Heard of having an affair? The fact is -- Depp got on the stand this week and said he has never hit a woman. That's the crux of the defamation trial -- you said I hit you when I didn't. But there are texts from his assistant to Heard saying "Johnny is very sorry for kicking you." emo-ignorance fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 18:55
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