China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

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Smeef: Aug 15, 2003; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!; Pillbug

ronya posted:

I'm hearing rumblings on a Beijing lockdown becoming more likely in the next week, anyone have a link to good coverage?

I don�t know about good coverage, but pictures of empty grocery store shelves are all over social media. SCMP had a story about suddenly finding a few dozen cases and preparing for a lockdown, but the article is gone now. :tinfoil:

I have family who were about to renovate their apartment in Haidian, but suddenly the workers aren�t allowed into the community.

# ? Apr 25, 2022 00:08

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# ? May 17, 2024 01:37

BrainDance: May 8, 2007; Disco all night long!

ronya posted:

senior and immunocompromised residents have to present themselves too, no exceptions

Is Shanghai like that? It wouldn't surprise me, seeing how hosed they are. But here there are exceptions, and those exceptions are if you're very old and so it's gonna be a problem, or otherwise disabled in a way. They come to your door then to test you instead.

# ? Apr 25, 2022 00:54

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/04/shanghais-plan-to-reboot-the-supply-chain-will-hit-workers-the-hardest/

quote:

Shanghai�s plan to reboot the supply chain will hit workers the hardest

Workers may end up trading being locked down at home for locked down at work.

---

Like many people in Shanghai, Joyce has spent weeks shut at home since the latest COVID-19 lockdown was imposed on March 28. The software industry executive, who asked to be identified only by her first name to avoid attention from the authorities, says she has suffered from food shortages, and the compound where she lives has resorted to �group buying,� where different individuals are responsible for sourcing as much of a certain product as possible for the community.

�A lot of people are struggling with being confined at home, because they have literally no income,� she says. Group purchases �are three to four or five times more expensive than the normal days, and Shanghai is not cheap.�

Faced with this dire situation, the central government in Beijing has made it a priority to restart Shanghai�s industrial sector. Liu He, the Chinese vice premier, announced this week that the government would aim to stabilize the country�s supply chain by helping 666 companies in COVID-ravaged Shanghai reboot their operations. Doing that while the city continues to battle China�s worst COVID outbreak since the pandemic began may prove an enormous challenge�and may not succeed in curbing the disruption that the global supply chain could feel for weeks or months to come.

The government announced the �white list� of Shanghai companies it would help to reopen on April 15, out of the 50,000 or so that operate in the area. The list includes domestic and foreign firms that provide key inputs to the supply chain, such as manufacturers of semiconductor components, automotive parts, and medical supplies. Tesla�s Shanghai factory has reportedly reopened already, with workers shut in a closed loop, but with many component supplies still closed it is unclear how much of the production line is operating.

The government may feel that it has no option but to kickstart industrial activity, even though the situation in Shanghai is not yet fully under control. On Monday, China�s National Bureau of Statistics released economic data showing that although the economy expanded 4.8 percent in the first quarter of 2022 compared to the same period in 2021, in March economic activity slowed in Shanghai and other cities subjected to lockdowns.

�People here have mixed feelings� about the reopenings, because they see them as partly a public relations exercise, says Joyce. �Most companies will ask people to live at the factory, but how are you going to do it? People may not be allowed to go home.�

Some factories have been able to continue operations while minimizing the risk of COVID outbreaks by operating with workers shut inside a �closed loop,� meaning that they have to remain inside a plant, eating there and in some cases reportedly sleeping on the floor, for days or even weeks at a time.

Many workers would need permission to leave the compound where they live and then risk not being allowed to return. Some factory managers are unsure whether workers will show up. One, at a Shanghai electronics factory, who asked not to be named because of the risk of upsetting the authorities, says his factory has been successfully using the closed-loop approach. But he worries that it may be difficult to find enough workers for each new shift.

Fiona Yu, a partner at the Chinese investment firm Northern Light Venture Capital, who also lives in Shanghai, says the lockdown has been challenging but manageable. She believes that people are able to get enough food, if not exactly what they�d like. �I think most of the people, especially young people, they are willing to go and work,� she says.

But Yu says some of the companies her firm has invested in have faced difficulties. Some have had to halt operations because of shortages of hardware components. A few entrepreneurs have even been forced to sleep at their labs to ensure that important biotech experiments are not disrupted. �They are suffering, but they are doing it,� she says.

[...]

Lol, stuck at a factory, forced to work and then sleep on the floor for weeks at a time. loving insanity.

# ? Apr 25, 2022 09:25

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Slow News Day posted:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/04/shanghais-plan-to-reboot-the-supply-chain-will-hit-workers-the-hardest/

Lol, stuck at a factory, forced to work and then sleep on the floor for weeks at a time. loving insanity.

Totalitarian enough to force workers to live in their factories, yet not totalitarian enough to develop and deploy a domestic mRNA vaccine over the past 2 years and then force grandpapa to get his shots. Good grief.

Covid lockdown fears spark panic buying in Beijing as largest district begins mass testing
Residents hope to avoid Shanghai-style shortages as Chinese authorities rush to stamp out outbreak in the capital
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/25/covid-lockdown-fears-spark-panic-buying-in-beijing-as-largest-district-begins-mass-testing

quote:

Beijingers were flooding supermarkets to stock up on food on Monday, hoping to avoid Shanghai-style shortages in the case of a city-wide lockdown as the capital records a growing number of Covid infections.

Authorities in Beijing have ordered 3.5 million residents and workers in the biggest district of Chaoyang to report for three coronavirus tests this week, after the area recorded 26 of Beijing�s 47 symptomatic cases since Friday.

On Monday, China reported 3,266 symptomatic cases and 20,454 asymptomatic cases. The majority were in Shanghai, where 19,455 were reported. Beijing reported 19 cases on Monday, including 14 symptomatic.

A worker wearing protective equipment walks near a locked down neighbourhood after the detection of new cases of Covid-19 in the Huangpu district of Shanghai on 17 March 2022.

�The current outbreak in Beijing is spreading stealthily from sources that remained unknown yet and is developing rapidly,� a municipality official said on Sunday.

More than a dozen residential buildings were put under lockdown in Chaoyang, an affluent downtown area home to embassies and international businesses. �Chaoyang district is now the topmost focus for pandemic prevention,� said the city�s Communist party head, Cai Qi, according to the New York Times.

�Important pandemic measures cannot be left waiting till the next day � All at-risk sites and individuals involved in these cases must be checked that day.�

In Beijing the streets were quieter than usual, and restaurants less busy. During the Monday lunch hour hundreds queued at testing sites across Chaoyang, but wait times were usually less than an hour.

Chinese health authorities are hoping to avoid a repeat of events in Shanghai, which resisted going into lockdown, before imposing partial city closures and then eventually a total lockdown.

Now in its fourth week, Shanghai�s lockdown has resulted in major food shortages and delivery delays, in large part due to road closures and too few delivery drivers, leading to freight bottlenecks and widespread community discontent.

In Beijing residents flocked to supermarkets to stock up on food. Many of the capital�s fitness studios and gyms cancelled classes or closed.

The city also imposed tight entry controls, with travellers required to have a negative Covid test from within 48 hours.

Supermarket chains including Carrefour and Wumart said they had more than doubled inventories and extended opening hours on Sunday, while Meituan�s grocery-focused e-commerce platform increased inventory and the number of staffers for sorting and delivery, according to the state-backed Beijing Daily.

On Weibo one person said their father had gone to a Chaoyang supermarket in the morning, and crowds of people waited with trollies for trucks to unload. �There have been so many epidemics in Beijing, and I have never seen such a situation. It [seems] that the failure of Shanghai�s early epidemic prevention and supply has been a big blow to the confidence of the people.�

On Twitter, Chinese state media worker Liu Xin said she was stocking up �for the first time in two years� after the detection of some cases in her district. �Beijing�s turn. But we are ready,� she wrote alongside photos of empty supermarket shelves and fridges.

The Global Times, the state-backed English-language tabloid, quoted Beijing officials saying the city had sufficient daily supplies and was trading as normal. It said the mass testing across Chaoyang would determine if further measures were needed, including lockdowns.

The numbers recorded in Beijing are low by global standards, but China remains committed to a zero-Covid policy. The policy responses of lockdowns, mass testing and quarantine have been successful in containing outbreaks in the past, but are being challenged by the highly virulent Omicron strain. Authorities now emphasise achieving zero-Covid �in a social setting�, meaning no cases are found outside of the quarantine system.

After apparent changes in the way they attribute deaths, authorities in Shanghai have begun reporting fatalities from the outbreak, including 51 on Sunday. However the true number of people who have died after getting Covid-19 is believed to be much higher, with widespread reports of uncounted fatalities in hospitals and nursing homes.

So it looks like we are already seeing the goalposts move from zero-Covid to "zero-Covid in a social setting". I imagine that will continue to shift.

# ? Apr 25, 2022 16:34

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

a thread: https://twitter.com/chris__pc/status/1518541406821748736

# ? Apr 25, 2022 19:19

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

ronya posted:

a thread: https://twitter.com/chris__pc/status/1518541406821748736

I don't pretend to know the right way to deal with a COVID outbreak, but I have confidence that what's going on in Shanghai ain't it.

# ? Apr 25, 2022 22:41

Not So Fast: Dec 27, 2007

SlothfulCobra posted:

We did it two years ago, guy. Democracy's great. China should try it sometime.

Remind me how many people have died of Covid-19 under Biden compared to Trump?

Seriously though, Chinese people aren't going to overthrow their government for the same reason we don't overthrow ours - they aren't organised or desperate enough for that yet. Until the "zero-Covid" strategy actually collapses, then people will stay cowed.

# ? Apr 25, 2022 23:06

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

ronya posted:

a thread: https://twitter.com/chris__pc/status/1518541406821748736

https://twitter.com/chris__pc/status/1518544884239454209?s=20&t=YUD9sL3kIirK3R1mPCAcxA

I find this interesting. Political groups often start as practical groups as a local community organizes to fill some need and people start recognizing "Oh, hey, that guy is active in the community and seems to know what they're doing and they helped us get through this current problem, maybe they have some other good ideas and maybe our organization can serve more purposes than the immediate one we founded it for." After this situation is over you might have a lot of unofficial grassroots leaders popping up in Shanghai who helped their communities organize and weather the current crisis, and who have plenty of reasons to be distrustful of either the government's willingness or ability to help in times of need. I wonder how that will play out and how the government might react to that?

# ? Apr 25, 2022 23:48

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Not So Fast posted:

Remind me how many people have died of Covid-19 under Biden compared to Trump?

What the heck do either of those chucklefucks have to do with democracy? (Seriouspost by the by.)

# ? Apr 25, 2022 23:55

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

e: nah

ronya fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Apr 26, 2022

# ? Apr 26, 2022 17:08

FishBulbia: Dec 22, 2021

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands

If Solomon islands continue seeking defense guarantees from China, the US may have to react to defend its sphere of influence.

FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Apr 27, 2022

# ? Apr 27, 2022 00:24

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

FishBulbia posted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands

If Soloman islands continue seeking defense guarantees from China, the US may have to react to defend its sphere of influence.

uh

this seems outright ridiculous on the US's part

# ? Apr 27, 2022 04:08

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

FishBulbia posted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands

If Soloman islands continue seeking defense guarantees from China, the US may have to react to defend its sphere of influence.

Ugh. Do they not realize how hypocritical this sort of rhetoric looks right now?

Having said that: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/solomon-islands-tells-japan-it-will-not-allow-china-military-bases-2022-04-26/

# ? Apr 27, 2022 04:34

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

If you actually read the article that�s not what was said, they said that the Solomons� decision gave security implications for the rest of the region, and if China established a base there they will have to act accordingly. They also said the US is not in the visitor telling countries to choose China or US over the other. My uninformed read of that is that it probably looks like more U.S. presence in the SCS and the pacific islands.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 07:20

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

therobit posted:

If you actually read the article that�s not what was said, they said that the Solomons� decision gave security implications for the rest of the region, and if China established a base there they will have to act accordingly. They also said the US is not in the visitor telling countries to choose China or US over the other. My uninformed read of that is that it probably looks like more U.S. presence in the SCS and the pacific islands.

Yeah it's a grossly poor-faith reading of �Look, I�m not going to speculate and I�m not in a position to talk about what the United States may or may not do in such a situation.�.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 07:58

studio mujahideen: May 3, 2005

therobit posted:

If you actually read the article that�s not what was said, they said that the Solomons� decision gave security implications for the rest of the region, and if China established a base there they will have to act accordingly. They also said the US is not in the visitor telling countries to choose China or US over the other. My uninformed read of that is that it probably looks like more U.S. presence in the SCS and the pacific islands.

What do you think 'acting accordingly' looks like?

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:10

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

Varinn posted:

What do you think 'acting accordingly' looks like?

As I said in that post, more military presence in the SCS and pacific islands.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:13

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

therobit posted:

As I said in that post, more military presence in the SCS and pacific islands.

Is that not just "imperial powers argue about spheres of influence. Ignoring wishes of local peoples."?

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:15

FishBulbia: Dec 22, 2021

therobit posted:

If you actually read the article that�s not what was said, they said that the Solomons� decision gave security implications for the rest of the region, and if China established a base there they will have to act accordingly. They also said the US is not in the visitor telling countries to choose China or US over the other. My uninformed read of that is that it probably looks like more U.S. presence in the SCS and the pacific islands.

quote:

�Of course, we have respect for the Solomon Islands sovereignty, but we also wanted to let them know that if steps were taken to establish a de facto permanent military presence, power projection capabilities, or a military installation, then we would have significant concerns, and we would very naturally respond to those concerns,� he said.

Pressed on whether he would rule out the prospect of the US taking military action against Solomon Islands were a naval base to be established, and, if not, whether he was comfortable with Australian prime minister Scott Morrison�s talk of the base being a �red line� for Australia, he said: �I don�t have a lot to add beyond what I�ve already stated.�

Why are the Solomon islands concluding a purely defensive agreement a threat to the US?

Could you explain how this is different than Lavrov's statements on Ukraine?

FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Apr 27, 2022

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:17

studio mujahideen: May 3, 2005

therobit posted:

As I said in that post, more military presence in the SCS and pacific islands.

I don't know what you were disagreeing with when it came to peoples reactions to the story, then? It sounds like you agree that the US is saying they would take a millitary action (increasing local presence of armed forces) if the Solomon Islands agreed to a defensive arrangement with China. That's in agreement with the original read of

FishBulbia posted:

US may have to react to defend its sphere of influence.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:23

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

You can't just call everything that happens in foreign policy a sphere of influence thats not how this works. The US isn't asserting a veto or the Solomon Islands foreign policy or threatening invasion.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:37

FishBulbia: Dec 22, 2021

Alchenar posted:

You can't just call everything that happens in foreign policy a sphere of influence thats not how this works. The US isn't asserting a veto or the Solomon Islands foreign policy or threatening invasion.

Yeah they can just sponsor a coup instead.

What do you feel is the best term for the area in which a great power feels adversarial encroachment represents a threat?

Zone of Strong Feelings?

Area of Involvement?

FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Apr 27, 2022

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:43

studio mujahideen: May 3, 2005

Alchenar posted:

You can't just call everything that happens in foreign policy a sphere of influence thats not how this works. The US isn't asserting a veto or the Solomon Islands foreign policy or threatening invasion.

That seems well beyond what anyone in this thread posted, or what the article says, to be fair, so I'm sure exactly what you're responding to.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 08:46

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

FishBulbia posted:

Zone of Strong Feelings?

Found the new forum name for d&d 😆

# ? Apr 27, 2022 15:32

Nilbop: Jun 5, 2004; Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...

FishBulbia posted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands

If Solomon islands continue seeking defense guarantees from China, the US may have to react to defend its sphere of influence.

It's been said before but this is a ludicrously bad-faith clickbait title.

The journalist was pressing for a soundbite. The US govt spokesperson said "Look, I don't have the ability to answer any of these questions. I'm a random schmoe who cannot state that the US is or is not going to war just because a journo asks me."

And of course the journo then uses this in the most inflammatory way they can, and those who want to eat it up.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 15:48

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

Nilbop posted:

It's been said before but this is a ludicrously bad-faith clickbait title.

The journalist was pressing for a soundbite. The US govt spokesperson said "Look, I don't have the ability to answer any of these questions. I'm a random schmoe who cannot state that the US is or is not going to war just because a journo asks me."

And of course the journo then uses this in the most inflammatory way they can, and those who want to eat it up.

apparently if you want the real psycho imperialist takes, AU commentariat is the place to go

# ? Apr 27, 2022 17:27

FishBulbia: Dec 22, 2021

Nilbop posted:

It's been said before but this is a ludicrously bad-faith clickbait title.

The journalist was pressing for a soundbite. The US govt spokesperson said "Look, I don't have the ability to answer any of these questions. I'm a random schmoe who cannot state that the US is or is not going to war just because a journo asks me."

And of course the journo then uses this in the most inflammatory way they can, and those who want to eat it up.

Why is what the solomon islands doing at all a concern for the US?

# ? Apr 27, 2022 18:03

MikeC: Jul 19, 2004; BITCH ASS NARC

FishBulbia posted:

Why is what the solomon islands doing at all a concern for the US?

They don't. They met and told the Solomon government the potential outcomes of hosting PLA forces should tensions in Taiwan or the South China Sea boil over and a shooting war starts. In that scenario, should Chinese military assets including men, bases, ships, and aircraft be operating on Solomon Is territory, they would almost certainly be hit in order to prevent Chinese naval and air assets from threatening US and potentially allied rear areas and logistics.

Basic 101 stuff.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 18:21

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

FishBulbia posted:

Why is what the solomon islands doing at all a concern for the US?

Given that China is constantly menacing everyone in the neighborhood and using bellicose rhetoric surrounding Taiwan do you even need to ask this? If they are increasing China�s ability to be a bad actor in the region, it is impacting US allies and interests. What�s being implied by the headline is a threat of attack which is not what is happening at all.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 19:17

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Personally, its probably a good thing that the SI are getting additional security from China, seeing as they failed to stop anti-chinese pogroms from happening prior.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 20:03

Despera: Jun 6, 2011; Can't post for 3 hours!

You might think that physics has nothing to do with chinese etho-nationalism but our glorius leader disagrees

https://mobile.twitter.com/TGTM_Official/status/1519350660407468032

# ? Apr 27, 2022 21:23

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Despera posted:

You might think that physics has nothing to do with chinese etho-nationalism but our glorius leader disagrees

https://mobile.twitter.com/TGTM_Official/status/1519350660407468032

That's strange, and concerning. We've seen what politicizing science has done to American society over the last, well, *waves hands at the 2nd half of the 20th century and beyond*.

I would expect a Communist state to be better about it. Don't they revere the scientific process as part of the intellectual legacy of Communism? If I'm mistaken then my apologies.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 21:42

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

How are u posted:

I would expect a Communist state to be better about it. Don't they revere the scientific process as part of the intellectual legacy of Communism? If I'm mistaken then my apologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

# ? Apr 27, 2022 21:49

Despera: Jun 6, 2011; Can't post for 3 hours!

Silver2195 posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

I was thinking about posting him

Also the politiciation of science in america has gone on forever but never on this level

x(E) = (M)arxism x (C)hinese^(C)haracteristics

Despera fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 28, 2022

# ? Apr 27, 2022 21:56

eSports Chaebol: Feb 22, 2005; Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I don't pretend to know the right way to deal with a COVID outbreak, but I have confidence that what's going on in Shanghai ain't it.

It's not that hard to find a good example of a way to deal with a COVID outbraek. In a large city. In southern China. In spring of 2022. Just look at Shenzhen. Shanghai loving up royally should be evidence that they need LESS independence from Beijing, not more.

# ? Apr 28, 2022 01:20

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/world/asia/china-covid-propaganda.html

Things appear to be getting worse still

# ? Apr 28, 2022 01:24

Cefte: Sep 18, 2004; tranquil consciousness

Bill Bishop quoted this interview with Joerg Wuttke recently.

quote:

So given the choice between pandemic control and the economy, the economy gets the short end of the stick?

Yes. The political signalling ist clear. The mayors, the regional politicians, they all have only one metric right now: Zero Covid. Imagine you're a mayor of a medium-sized city and a truck comes with supplies for a local factory with parts from the Shanghai area. Do you let the truck pass and run the risk that the driver will bring Omicron and you will have local contagions? You won�t get kicked out of your job if the economy in your area is doing poorly on average � but you will lose your job if you have Covid in your city. The system�s focus on Zero Covid leads to many decision makers being in a kind of self-destruction mode. They don�t care about the economy in the short term. In current politics, the business people hardly get through anymore. The fear is too great, and time and again you get confirmation from above: If you have Covid in your city, you have a problem.

There's probably space for a non-trivial discussion around the influence of business-related metrics on local and national political structures in China, Russia and the US right now.

# ? Apr 28, 2022 14:49

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013

Silver2195 posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

While it's fairly easy to infer how this link is relevant and what you're arguing with it, it's best to state this explicitly in your own words when linking an article so no one has to guess.

# ? Apr 28, 2022 19:41

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

Cefte posted:

Bill Bishop quoted this interview with Joerg Wuttke recently.

There's probably space for a non-trivial discussion around the influence of business-related metrics on local and national political structures in China, Russia and the US right now.

This is from a month ago, and things have gotten far worse since. Is there something more recent?

# ? Apr 28, 2022 20:09

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# ? May 17, 2024 01:37

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

oh trust me, lysenko and his decades-long tenure is an embarrassment to communists everywhere (weirdos like Haz do not count as communists)

# ? Apr 28, 2022 21:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

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