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Gender isn’t solely in the realm of the conscious mind. So you can know you’re trans but not know you’re trans. I don’t think this is well-studied yet (how do you study this sort of thing anyway) but it’s a phenomenon that’s recognized in other areas. Not all knowledge can be verbalized. Went over it in my grad school work a few months ago.
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Apr 30, 2022 17:04
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Dog King posted:What I'm interested to go over is the exact definition of trans where it makes sense to say one can be trans and not know it. Or where being trans can't be conditional on externalities, like Jaxyon implied. Like I said, the definition I'm operating under is "identify as a gender other than what they were assigned at birth," but I'm not really an expert in this. A useful term I’ve come across is “bio-social”. It’s a recognition that a lot of human health and disease is a mix of a lot of factors and we can’t cleanly silo them by the disciplines. There does seem to be some biological basis for gender dysphoria (summary here: https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/causes) and also gender is socially constructed and the current diagnosis scheme for gender dysphoria is basically self-diagnosis. This society doesn’t have a lot of respect for self-diagnosis, so you have a moral panic about “groomers” tricking people into thinking they are trans and a lot of airtime given to de-transitioning people. This doesn’t do anyone who is questioning any favours because it means you might have to climb over a mountain of stigma and denial to self-diagnose. The degree to which identity is discovered vs constructed by the individual and the society they live in is extremely messy, made all the messier by the fact that we haven’t really gotten over the mind/body duality.
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Apr 30, 2022 17:18
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BougieBitch posted:So this is a bit of a digression from the current topic, but something I've been thinking about on and off for years but never really engaged with due to just not having a space where the conversation makes sense. [...] I don't have good answers for you but, just generally, cases like this (and, I guess, like me) are why I think the push for trans rights is doing everybody a favour. I think there's probably a lot of people who would be happier making some changes to their presentation and the expectations society puts on them but they're outweighed at the moment by how bloody difficult it is.
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Apr 30, 2022 17:34
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OwlFancier posted:I don't have good answers for you but, just generally, cases like this (and, I guess, like me) are why I think the push for trans rights is doing everybody a favour. I think there's probably a lot of people who would be happier making some changes to their presentation and the expectations society puts on them but they're outweighed at the moment by how bloody difficult it is. Yeah, the reason I decided to share is because it seemed like your case had at least some broad similarities, insofar as we both are choosing to default to externally-perceived gender on the basis of gross physical characteristics despite not really feeling that, on the whole, it reflects our internal dialogues and self-perceptions. At earlier stages in my life I was really struggling to reconcile the need/desirability of trans identity adopting the framework of binary gender, and I think to some degree the reason I struggled to comprehend the need for it is because I don't really feel like male/female gender identity is a useful tool for understanding myself. I think even now that there's some unfortunate blurring of the line between between biological charactistics and gender that surfaces in discussion of trans issues - often with the positive intention of explaining things to people with no real understanding of the broader issues, or directly countering arguments coming from the various shitheads. I sometimes worry that discussions about trans athletes are sucking the oxygen out of the room in the same way that gay marriage did for so many years, without really creating the rhetorical basis for the broader societal change in popular discourse. It feels like there is a lot of focus on "LGBTQ+ people are just like you!" instead of "things don't need to fit into the boxes you are used to"
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Apr 30, 2022 22:47
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I feel like the more assimilationist side of the argument is inherently losing, though. Or rather, it's never going to be enough, but it can serve as the narrow end of the wedge. Granted I wasn't aware at the time but when the big fight was for gay marriage there was a lot less emphasis placed on the more nonconforming side of the community and yeah the emphasis was very much "hello I am gay man who want to have husband like good christian person" which while good for some people certainly isn't going to help everyone on the face of it, but on the other hand it feels like the gay marriage fight really did break the back of quite a lot of the opposition. And while they currently control the legislative efforts, that they are having to go out of their way to try and create a legislative barrier to trans people being able to live their lives and teaching people about better ways of understanding themselves in relation to gender, does kind of indicate how on the defensive they are? They really lost that argument and now wider LGBT rights are a full on culture war issue, with enough relevance to get big corporations even trying to market via their support for them. That to me suggests that the material reality is that a lot of people are on our side. For all the poo poo the right are pulling it still seems like these far more radical ideas are gaining a lot more traction than they were a decade ago, and especially among younger people, and I think that's because there's a pretty desprate need for it, it is the full range of human experience asserting itself into the world, and once people get a taste of it, it's very hard to put it back in the box. While I agree that it would be great to have the most radical possible ideas out there at the front, to me, history seems to suggest that less radical victories do seem to make more radical ones easier to fight, as each barrier broken opens more ground for people's real experience and need to assert themselves.
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Apr 30, 2022 23:20
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Dog King posted:What I'm interested to go over is the exact definition of trans where it makes sense to say one can be trans and not know it. Or where being trans can't be conditional on externalities, like Jaxyon implied. Like I said, the definition I'm operating under is "identify as a gender other than what they were assigned at birth," but I'm not really an expert in this. I don't know how to articulate it in proper philosophical vocabulary, but someone who hasn't come out to themselves as being gay was still always gay, no? A lot of people don't relaise they are trans because of the pressure put on them ny a cisnormative society, but lesbians who suffered under comphet were still gay the whole time.
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May 1, 2022 01:05
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Dog King posted:What I'm interested to go over is the exact definition of trans where it makes sense to say one can be trans and not know it. Or where being trans can't be conditional on externalities, like Jaxyon implied. Like I said, the definition I'm operating under is "identify as a gender other than what they were assigned at birth," but I'm not really an expert in this. I think I personally would say that (at least some) people have an internal setting informing them what gender they are "supposed" to be, and a mismatch between that internal setting and their body is what being trans is. I don't think that mismatch has to be acted on in any specific way, or even realized by the person themself, in order for it to qualify as being trans.
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May 1, 2022 01:49
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Hey if cool is going to post in this thread, can we make it an explicit rule that transphobia is not allowed because this thread is not a safe place to expose your bigotry, and neither is it the place for playing devils advocate with transgender issues The entire reason we have an IK is because of Koos inability to grasp why this was an issue and how Cool's behaviour led to the extinction of any reasonable discussion Just to head it off E: I mean playing devils advocate is already clearly and obviously against good faith rules unless its trans stuff already so it would be good to clarify that trans issues are covered under that before we end up with another triple perma thread Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 03:13
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I think speaking as the IK and OP, transphobia is not allowed here. lovely circular arguments are not allowed. To give some transparency, I get messaged when someone reports something and flip up the page on my phone randomly. I genuinely don't want to shut down conversation and make people afraid to post here, but obviously the discourse in the Sports thread was not working and the mod team from my communication with them seems to recognize that. Please PM directly if you think there is a poster who is not acting in good faith or has a past history that makes you uncomfortable. I bailed from the sports thread to make this one because that thing was a poo poo show, so please trust that I will try to keep this space safe as best I can. And if I fail at that then gently caress me. I do think discussion is actually going pretty strong here and kinda pushed against being an IK because of that. And the mod team was like, "Well ya know... just in case..." So, I think for now let's focus on the good conversation being had, and I am around if it all goes to poo poo.
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May 1, 2022 04:50
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Speaking of research on LGBTQ+ issues: https://pridestudy.org/study The PRIDE (Population Research in Identity and Disparities for Equality) study is an ongoing long-term national health study from Stamford School of Medicine and UCAL SF to better understand health issues in the LGBTQ+ community as there has been a lack of research on how we are affected specifically, and what disparities exist in health care. https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/pride-study-will-help-doctors-learn-about-lgbtq-health.html posted:The study’s principal investigators, Juno Obedin-Maliver and Mitchell Lunn—both physicians and researchers at UCSF—were medical school colleagues at Stanford, and two of the founding members of the school’s Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, & Transgender Medical Education Research Group. (Lunn was co-author of a study about homophobia in medical schools, which I’ve written about previously.) Obedin-Maliver told me:
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May 1, 2022 05:11
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Miss Broccoli posted:Hey if cool is going to post in this thread, can we make it an explicit rule that transphobia is not allowed because this thread is not a safe place to expose your bigotry, and neither is it the place for playing devils advocate with transgender issues The intention in asking her to IK is to support her and the thread community in continuing the good discussion we've had so far. So rather than top down moderation a more bottom up approach, if that makes sense? The thread is good, Timeless Appeal has mod backing in whatever she thinks is appropriate to maintain good discussion and a welcoming and informative space. I would rather participate in this thread as a poster than moderate, but I do have it bookmarked and am following it closely so can help out if necessary. Folks are welcome to PM me with concerns.
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May 1, 2022 06:08
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Miss Broccoli posted:I don't know how to articulate it in proper philosophical vocabulary, but someone who hasn't come out to themselves as being gay was still always gay, no? A lot of people don't relaise they are trans because of the pressure put on them ny a cisnormative society, but lesbians who suffered under comphet were still gay the whole time.
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May 1, 2022 09:55
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The problem I see with seeing trans as an intrinsic and unchangeable (essential) quality, where your actions and self-description don't affect it, is that it can lead to someone like me who lives as their assigned gender being able to say they're trans in spite of that having no material effect on their life. Like if I walked into a trans space and said I was one of them, but I have no plans to ever identify as a woman or change my life in any way, I think they'd be justified in looking at me weird.
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May 2, 2022 08:49
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At least my local trans support group is very open to people who just want to talk about gender and figure things out. It's not like an exclusive club, it's just a place for people to who want to talk about gender stuff, with a huge variety of experiences represented. The rules are designed specifically to discourage "are you really trans enough?" gatekeeping. If you earnestly think you belong there or benefit from being there and aren't being a poo poo to others, nobody has a problem with it. And, I wouldn't have any problem with a non transitioning trans person in trans spaces.
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May 2, 2022 10:56
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Dog King posted:The problem I see with seeing trans as an intrinsic and unchangeable (essential) quality, where your actions and self-description don't affect it, is that it can lead to someone like me who lives as their assigned gender being able to say they're trans in spite of that having no material effect on their life. Like if I walked into a trans space and said I was one of them, but I have no plans to ever identify as a woman or change my life in any way, I think they'd be justified in looking at me weird. Frankly, who cares? Labels are descriptive, not prescriptive. To use an example from my own life, my orientation does not depend on who I'm presently in a relationship with. There's no bisexual mafia out there throwing people out of the club if they aren't smooching a sufficient variety of partners. If you're questioning your gender enough to want to say that you're transgender, the odds of you not being so are extremely slim. A fair number of transgender people, especially nonbinary folks, may not outwardly transition in any easily observable way. Especially given the discrimination, hate, and violence directed at openly trans people. If you're just going into those spaces to be an rear end in a top hat, it'll be glaringly obvious, and frankly a lot of extra work since some dudes will walk in anywhere and feel justified by their social role of perceived authority. Same thing that always comes up around bathroom bills. If a predator wants to assault someone in a womens' restroom they will just do so. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 11:07 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 11:03
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Yeah, “I could lie to people,” is not actually a powerful philosophical objection. I think you’ll find that, in many places, telling people you are trans will have an immediate material impact on your life.
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May 2, 2022 11:22
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doingitwrong posted:Yeah, “I could lie to people,” is not actually a powerful philosophical objection. That wouldn't be lying to people in the example I gave. Dr. Stab posted:At least my local trans support group is very open to people who just want to talk about gender and figure things out. It's not like an exclusive club, it's just a place for people to who want to talk about gender stuff, with a huge variety of experiences represented. The rules are designed specifically to discourage "are you really trans enough?" gatekeeping. If you earnestly think you belong there or benefit from being there and aren't being a poo poo to others, nobody has a problem with it. And, I wouldn't have any problem with a non transitioning trans person in trans spaces. Fair enough then.
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May 2, 2022 11:38
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Dog King posted:That wouldn't be lying to people in the example I gave. Wait, in your example they are genuinely trans but they are not socially/medically transitioning? That’s…a lot of trans people. Especially a lot of the ones going to a trans space for the first time. As someone who has been living that exact situation, I can tell you: it has a SUBSTANTIAL material effect on one’s life.
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May 2, 2022 11:45
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I'm trans. Taking hormones, changing my name and wardrobe are all decisions I made in response to that fact, not the other way around. I view being trans as a positive thing, but to use an extreme example: if I have cancer it's not contingent on me getting treatment or not. If I live in a cave and don't know what cancer is I still have cancer. Likewise when I was a teenager and didn't yet have the knowledge and language to apply the trans label to myself I was still trans. Egg cracking is a long process.
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May 2, 2022 13:22
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Dog King posted:The problem I see with seeing trans as an intrinsic and unchangeable (essential) quality, where your actions and self-description don't affect it, is that it can lead to someone like me who lives as their assigned gender being able to say they're trans in spite of that having no material effect on their life. Like if I walked into a trans space and said I was one of them, but I have no plans to ever identify as a woman or change my life in any way, I think they'd be justified in looking at me weird. I’d push back against the idea that not physically/socially/medically transitioning means being trans has no material effect on your life. Just because other people can’t or don’t see it doesn’t mean there’s no effect. In my experience trans people who have no plans to “officially” transition are not ubiquitous but fairly common at support groups, because it’s nice to be in a community of people who get you. I went to one for like, 2 years like that, no one batted an eye.
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May 2, 2022 14:46
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It's also really worth remembering that some of the people who feel the biggest impact of being trans are the ones with least access to expression. My wife and I are solidly middle class, but the pink tax is real and transitioning has costs. I think this line of discussion originally came from discussion of current technology and where it might grow, but the reality is that a lot of the people who can really put in to present more fully and pass as women (who have gone through male puberty) are usually more well off.
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May 2, 2022 14:54
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Hawkperson posted:I’d push back against the idea that not physically/socially/medically transitioning means being trans has no material effect on your life. Just because other people can’t or don’t see it doesn’t mean there’s no effect. "Yes." "Ok, great. You can be my client." And I've since come to realize that being socialized wrong, that going through the wrong puberty, that merely existing in a viciously transphobic society are all inherently traumatic for trans people, regardless of what additional, more visible traumas get heaped on us (or don't get heaped on us). It doesn't matter if you're out or buried deep in the closet either. One question that's started to bug me from cis people is, "When did you realize you were trans?" I used to give a long accounting, but now I just ask, "When did you realize you were cis?" Some (many?) don't even understand the question, because they've never had to think about it. Kurgarra Queen fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 15:00
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Dog King, i hope you don’t feel hassled or anything because at this point I’m just thinking out loud. The whole point of being queer anyway is to be yourself and not what someone else wants you to be. That said it’s a fairly common expression of dysphoria to just completely offload all sense of self onto the people around you. “I can’t be trans because other people wouldn’t see me as trans” isn’t true. We humans do partially seat our identities in the mirrors that others hold up to us; but that’s only half the story. Your own internal self-perception is just as important - and in trans people in our current society it’s very common for that self-perception to be pushed way way down like that. I wouldn’t know but I imagine it was similar for cis gay people in the recent past as well. Trans-focused spaces are pretty rare but all of the ones I know would openly welcome the person in Dog King’s hypothetical. Trans pride events: The only people not welcome were the gatekeepers lol Support groups: already mentioned Online spaces: the trans chat thread in cccc is ik’d by a trans person with no plans to “officially” transition. No one would be a dick about it in that thread anyway, but if someone was, they’d run em out of town posthaste
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May 2, 2022 15:19
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Help! I somehow ended up on Buck Angel's twitter page and I can't look away!
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May 2, 2022 19:35
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BigRed0427 posted:Help! I somehow ended up on Buck Angel's twitter page and I can't look away! --Was confused --Googled "Buck Angel explained" --Got to the part where his ex-wife left him for one of the Matrix directors who she was domming. Is the short end he's a trans pornstar who uses transexual and has weird opinions about transitioning?
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May 2, 2022 19:45
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I literally only know him as the dude who spends a weird amount of time complaining about other trans people so I have filed him under "should be running a cringe reaction youtube channel but somehow is an adult man instead"
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May 2, 2022 19:48
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Well he started doing videos with Blair White about how harmful transition is for children so... ... Thats where he's at
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May 2, 2022 20:09
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He's pro conversion therapy and super enbyphobic and transmedicalist. Just an all around poo poo head.
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May 2, 2022 20:13
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Very big "Angry that trans men today can get on HRT much more easily" energy when they had to struggle.
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May 2, 2022 20:19
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BigRed0427 posted:Help! I somehow ended up on Buck Angel's twitter page and I can't look away! Well now I read it too and I am sad
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May 2, 2022 20:20
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Bad vocal representation is not just for the ladies! Buck had always been garbage and is constantly being poo poo hard on by the conservatives he wants the approval of. Beyond Elliot Page and Boy's Don't Cry rep for trans men/masc folk is pretty thin and the predominantly trans women/femme focus on trans health ect leaves a lot to be desired. Luckily for me there have been amazing transmen in my neck of the woods who have kept the meagerly funded orgs and programs around for years doing dope poo poo like low cost/free binders and monthly irl catchups. I was also in an all trans dodgeball team - best time of my life throwing foam at the cis hets. Thankfully also the group is also welcoming to nonbinary folk who like me are more masc inclined and despite some stropping about it from binary trans people there really was no massive change in it. I myself am like 80% male/??? agenderish 5 years on T RIP my hairline and perfect acne free skin.
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May 3, 2022 10:30
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Dog King posted:The problem I see with seeing trans as an intrinsic and unchangeable (essential) quality, where your actions and self-description don't affect it, is that it can lead to someone like me who lives as their assigned gender being able to say they're trans in spite of that having no material effect on their life. Like if I walked into a trans space and said I was one of them, but I have no plans to ever identify as a woman or change my life in any way, I think they'd be justified in looking at me weird. To be blunt, I think I would look at you with sorrow. Your situation must suck, and it's yet another anecdote to add to the pile of "please for the love of god give us puberty blockers and research funding". You said if the tech was there you'd do it and everyone deserves the chance to live outwardly as their authentic self. I sure hope that "I'm trans but I don't want to act on it because the technology isn't there yet" and "I would transition if medical technology was better" don't get you excluded from anything. I can see people being sensitive if they felt like you were attacking their choices here though, people are (rightfully and understandably) pretty sensitive so you may have to be particular with your language. I've had a vaginaplasty myself and I can understand why someone wouldn't want to go through it for the result thats available right now but golly gosh my heckles would be up if I felt it was getting poo poo talked and I'm not alone. I don't want to be pushy but I would advise still looking into some sort of gender counselling. I know quite a few trans people who said this sort of thing as a cope, to keep themselves in the closet. I know more who are out and want things like Phallo but and are miserable without a penis, but current tech isn't good enough especially in Australia where there is 1 surgeon who can do it and it costs 100k AUD and it sucks for them. That would be what I'd say if I met you in a real world trans space and the conversation ended up here too. e: I want to be clear too: You are very far from the only one to feel this way Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 13:21 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 13:17
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I think some people's experience of dysphoria may lead them to underestimate the value of a change in self-conception from simply saying to yourself and knowing "I am trans" separate to legal, medical, and social transition.
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May 3, 2022 15:35
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Miss Broccoli posted:I sure hope that "I'm trans but I don't want to act on it because the technology isn't there yet" and "I would transition if medical technology was better" don't get you excluded from anything. I can see people being sensitive if they felt like you were attacking their choices here though, people are (rightfully and understandably) pretty sensitive so you may have to be particular with your language. This is sort of why I feel odd. If someone were to ask me what pronouns I wanted, the honest answer would be "whatever you want" but I think if I said that it would come off as flippant.
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May 3, 2022 15:43
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OwlFancier posted:This is sort of why I feel odd. If someone were to ask me what pronouns I wanted, the honest answer would be "whatever you want" but I think if I said that it would come off as flippant. Most people who feel this way say something like “I am comfortable with any pronouns.” Transmed types like Buck Angel would probably still find this offensive somehow but they can go gently caress themselves 
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May 3, 2022 16:19
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For whatever it's worth I spent a lot of time thinking I'd only transition if there was some way to do it at the push of a button. I didn't think there was a good chance I'd be happy with transition tools as they were currently available. But eventually I decided that even if it wasn't perfect it was better than living as a dude so I made the jump and I really couldn't be happier. The Button hypothetical has its issues (mainly I believe with covering nonbinary identities) but it did help me early on cut through a lot of the bullshit fueling my doubts and insecurity. Once I was able to establish "this is who I am and this is what I want" it was a lot easier for me to move forward. oh god oh fuck fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 16:42
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oh god oh gently caress posted:The Button hypothetical has its issues (mainly I believe with covering nonbinary identities) but it did help me early on cut through a lot of the bullshit fueling my doubts and insecurity. Once I was able to establish "this is who I am and this is what I want" it was a lot easier for me to move forward. I do wonder how effective these questions would be on someone who's been dealing with transition/being trans for a long time. After dealing with all the associated problem and ups and downs for however many years you realise the hypotheticals can never encompass the true difficulties of any transition, no matter how perfect. An example being, again, someone who's had a long transition that doesn't fit into any real model or conception, fantasizing about "Who I would be," "Who I want to be," and "What I dream of being," has just stopped by sacrificing past ambitions and getting into a routine of their life. The fantasy of a better trans life has left them. (This can be read as very "downer" territory, but it happens in all spheres of life. People realise they'll never have the careers or families they want and fit into an uneasy contentedness with what they do have.)
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May 3, 2022 17:07
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While it doesn't at all encompass the realities of transition, it did help me recognize and accept that I was trans and transition was something I wanted.
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May 3, 2022 17:17
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I'm specifically not talking about starting transition. I said that repeatedly. I'm trying to start a more nuanced discussion about how useful such questions are once someone has decided, "I'm trans," and has gone on to take action on transitioning. In the endless attack on trans healthcare I'm trying to get ahead of some doctor asking someone who's settled into a comfortable-ish routine, with sacrifices in their life and saying, "Would you press the button?" and when they're told stop talking so stupidly by the trans person writes down. "Combative about their gender. Stop treatment." Similarly, this goes back to my earlier point about how someone having a solid conception of self — a trans self — separate to legal, medical and social transition, and how the approaches used ten years ago might not work with someone now knowing they're trans but exposed to how trans life actually is (through friends, the media, etc.) Mrenda fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 17:26
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Mrenda posted:I'm specifically not talking about starting transition. I said that repeatedly. I'm trying to start a more nuanced discussion about how useful such questions are once someone has decided, "I'm trans," and has gone on to take action on transitioning. Well that hypothetical is only really aimed at and relevant to someone very early on in figuring out their gender identity. Someone who's on the cusp of establishing "the trans self". I've never seen it come up in any other context. Once we get into questions of actual real life transition it becomes a lot less abstract. When I started I'd ask people in my area about which clinics offer informed consent, how to deal with family and partners, how do I shop for clothes, etc.
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May 3, 2022 18:34
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