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imagine dungeons posted:My support hot-take is that healing should go down and damage and survival should go up. D.Va is good, if the other team doesn't know how to target people, or have high enough damage to warrant no shield. She will do well in lower tier comp matches and certain maps. but by no means is an S tier tank currently. The maps are mostly based around shields rather than terrain at the moment.
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May 2, 2022 00:56
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Another fun thing I remember was when Ashe came out, a lot of people were annoyed that we got a DPS character when they'd been clamoring for more tanks and supports. So the devs said "no, don't worry, we're going to add a ton of tanks and supports, this is just like a parting gift to the DPS since they won't get anything for a few years  "And then her cinematic introduced Echo as an obvious upcoming character, and some interviewer asked Jeff "what role is she going to be?" to which Jeff replied "hmm, I dunno, what role do you, the players, want her to be?", and the community's response was almost unilaterally "support please, god, anything but yet another loving DPS"
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May 2, 2022 01:47
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I bet certain DPS will need to evolve to take the role of off tank/bodyguard for the game to work, at least at a pro level and trickling down. It is so important to force 2v1s to punish flankers. I'm not necessarily in favor of this, but going down to 1 support and 3 dps might make more sense than the current config. One of those DPS would be a torb or something to watch the flank.
headcase fucked around with this message at 02:06 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 01:59
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Sakara123 posted:D.Va is good, if the other team doesn't know how to target people, or have high enough damage to warrant no shield. She will do well in lower tier comp matches and certain maps. but by no means is an S tier tank currently. The maps are mostly based around shields rather than terrain at the moment. Shields barely matter once you get out of Brass ranks cause everyone just plays mobility heroes and goes around. The only Shield that matters is Sigma because he CAN block two ways at the same time with his Shield + Block and a ranged stun. D.va is probably the best tank in the game in the current state because she can cover a huge area with her matrix and can actually run down all these speedy DPS- in particular she's great against Soldier/Sojourn, who along with Sombra seem to be the DPS to beat currently.
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May 2, 2022 02:15
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I love Zen. Make Zen cooler/stronger idc how just do it.
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May 2, 2022 03:27
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Mr. Locke posted:Shields barely matter once you get out of Brass ranks cause everyone just plays mobility heroes and goes around. The only Shield that matters is Sigma because he CAN block two ways at the same time with his Shield + Block and a ranged stun. D.va is probably the best tank in the game in the current state because she can cover a huge area with her matrix and can actually run down all these speedy DPS- in particular she's great against Soldier/Sojourn, who along with Sombra seem to be the DPS to beat currently. Mobility is the meta for sure, but D.Va isn't the best choice there rn. Doom absolutety stomps and everyone is already running lucio + sombra so it's not like your dps or supports are lacking in it either. She's good, just not the best choice with how she is currently. Even with the awesome matrix. and when theres only one tank good enough doesn't do it. I've got a feeling blizzards going to struggle for some time with tank balance.
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May 2, 2022 04:41
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The more I think about the more I feel that, if there was a gun to your head and you HAD to make it 5v5, that the best thing to do would of been making teams have one support, and buffing them to raid boss tier, instead of tanks.
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May 2, 2022 05:09
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2, 3, 2 would have been tight as hell.
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May 2, 2022 05:14
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Whitenoise Poster posted:The more I think about the more I feel that, if there was a gun to your head and you HAD to make it 5v5, that the best thing to do would of been making teams have one support, and buffing them to raid boss tier, instead of tanks. The issue is that theres more useless off supports, than off tanks. But yeah, It would have been easier to balance around i'd believe.
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May 2, 2022 05:14
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Problem is if the support is the super hero, you can't ignore them like you can with a super tank (unless maybe you have an idea for making them super without upping their healing output). I think it would be hard to do that in a way that didn't have must fights just come down to which team kills the other team's support first. Personally I liked 1-3-2 when the added that to experimental, but I think I was in the minority here with that opinion. Tigole Bitties said 2-3-2 wasn't an option for OW as the engine had too many hacks that assumed a 12 player max. However, you'd think for a sequel that wouldn't be a limitation...
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May 2, 2022 05:29
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Still think it would have been better to raise the team sizes up to say 7 or 8 or even 9, if mostly because it's easier to ignore a bad or even actively trolling teammate when teams are bigger
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May 2, 2022 05:29
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drrockso20 posted:Still think it would have been better to raise the team sizes up to say 7 or 8 or even 9, if mostly because it's easier to ignore a bad or even actively trolling teammate when teams are bigger oh god no, the amount of screen fuckery would be immense. Imagine trying to even see people as a short hero lol
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May 2, 2022 05:49
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i think the game is unsalvageable at this point. we're definitely sticking with 1 tank which is fine but 2 support is going to be broken for various reasons. you could probably do one more last minute change and go 1-3-1 (i suspect 6 players aka 1-3-2 is off the table) and buff the currently existing supports but i expect that solo support comes with much more of a feast or famine situation for gameplay: you can play the game or disengage if you're lacking a tank, but if you have no healer you just die and supports become all important fulcrums for both teams where they collapse the moment something happens to them. also i expect blizzard's design approach to this "problem" would be to just replicate the mistakes of ow1, pushing a bunch of healing and tanking tools into the DPS role to cover the singular roles and then oops, it's all just a bunch of invincible high hp self healing heroes rubbing on each other aka GOATS again. and that's without getting into all the fuckery around the game's title and marketing and so on. "ow2" is definitely a joke and every single person I know who's been willing to try it has relentlessly dunked on the 2. should have just forced 1-3-2 on OW1 and kept updating the game. would at least have had a player base for a few more years.
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May 2, 2022 06:02
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tbh the worst part is, for the most part, the 5v5/1-2-2 team balance seems to be one of the few highly positive feedbacks I hear (aside from the queue times b/c now 40% of the player base has to play support when about 10% of it is actively willing to play it) 1-3-2 could have done so loving much for this game lol. game actively ruined by its shrinking elitist player base telling jeff "noooo we love 2-2-2 dont make any changes" haha
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May 2, 2022 06:05
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headcase posted:Damage role is so drat boring compared to the other 2. I just don't get why people don't play the fun flexy characters with lots of tricks instead of ones that just apply constant spam pressure most of the time. People that want to preshoot at corners at head level should play a different game. One of the fundamental design problems of making funny quirky trick characters is the most efficient thing to do in any shooter is just kill the guys on the other team so there's less of them than there are of your guys. If a character doesn't make just killing the other guys easier it's all just fluff.
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May 2, 2022 06:56
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I have played one single game as dps and role queue is stupid as poo poo and was a terrible band aid solution to blizzard either not knowing how to or being unable to balance their game. the only way to fix this without role queue for more consistently fair games would have been to make tanks and supports worse or change every role to play like dps comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 07:46 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 07:43
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megane posted:Another fun thing I remember was when Ashe came out, a lot of people were annoyed that we got a DPS character when they'd been clamoring for more tanks and supports. So the devs said "no, don't worry, we're going to add a ton of tanks and supports, this is just like a parting gift to the DPS since they won't get anything for a few years Supports were a mistake, anything below the baseline threat that Ana or Lucio present is entirely too weak to be in a shooter (and even Lucio should hurt more). The game is a decent shooter, mostly made worse by the idea of mandatory healing roles. Support should be mostly shooting with some clutch ult and the occasional save. Like Zarya. Murder murder murder muder bubble murder murder murder bubble. Edit: And the original design around essentially 2-skill/3-skill heroes is silly, seeing as eventually they bend/break those rules anyway because they are too limiting. And the dozen autoaim mechanics. I guess kind of OW could never decide if it wants to be a competitive shooter (nominally it does) or not (in effect it doesn't with every other autoaim/aoe heal etc it added during OW1). Idiot Doom Spiral fucked around with this message at 07:47 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 07:45
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Herstory Begins Now posted:
maybe they can fix support popularity who knows comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 08:06 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 07:56
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from rn
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Idiot Doom Spiral posted:Supports were a mistake, anything below the baseline threat that Ana or Lucio present is entirely too weak to be in a shooter (and even Lucio should hurt more). The game is a decent shooter, mostly made worse by the idea of mandatory healing roles. Support should be mostly shooting with some clutch ult and the occasional save. Like Zarya. Murder murder murder muder bubble murder murder murder bubble. moira is a strong 1v1 duelist and you can go 'reddit moira' on any isolated squishy people like to bring up the halcyon tf2 days but for those unaware in games where people tried to win there was a required healer role more 1dimensional and unpopular than in ow comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 08:13 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 08:00
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comedyblissoption posted:people like to bring up the halcyon tf2 days but for those unaware in games where people tried to win there was a required healer role more 1dimensional and unpopular than in ow When you unlocked the crossbow you became Ana AND Mercy 
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May 2, 2022 08:20
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:When you unlocked the crossbow you became Ana AND Mercy Crossbow was AFTER TF2 became poo poo.
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May 2, 2022 08:25
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megane posted:Another fun thing I remember was when Ashe came out, a lot of people were annoyed that we got a DPS character when they'd been clamoring for more tanks and supports. So the devs said "no, don't worry, we're going to add a ton of tanks and supports, this is just like a parting gift to the DPS since they won't get anything for a few years
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May 2, 2022 08:25
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1-3-2 should be experimented with and is way closer to how people were playing the game on ow1 release than 1-2-2 or 2-2-2
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May 2, 2022 08:37
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comedyblissoption posted:bap and zen have tremendous damage and murder potential Kritzkrieg was some of the most fun you could have trying to kill your teammates with a malfunctioning death ray.
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May 2, 2022 08:54
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Jack Trades posted:Crossbow was AFTER TF2 became poo poo. You're insane and have bad taste
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May 2, 2022 10:02
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Idiot Doom Spiral posted:I guess kind of OW could never decide if it wants to be a competitive shooter (nominally it does) or not (in effect it doesn't with every other autoaim/aoe heal etc it added during OW1).
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May 2, 2022 10:07
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ow1 winston and rein struck a really good balance and were really high skill chars
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May 2, 2022 10:35
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comedyblissoption posted:tanks and supports being very strong but players refusing to pick them was the central problem supports were numerically strong because ow has insane health pools and high hps healing. supports also felt like poo poo the higher up you go on the ladder as the tracers and genjis and sombras and doomfists got better and better at just deleting them. Good at healing large health pools =/= feels good to play. Imo tuning stuff by making heals stronger was a poor investment of character power wrt making characters that people wanted to play. That said, I also thought og lucio with weak but huge auras was by far the superior version of the character. comedyblissoption posted:1-3-2 should be experimented with and is way closer to how people were playing the game on ow1 release than 1-2-2 or 2-2-2 yeah. also on that note, i think i played vastly more games with 3 or 4 dps than I did 2-2-2 or 3-3. Like probably fully 5 times more. Most of my time playing coordinated 2-2-2 or goats was playing on a team and that honestly had very little in common with how the game is generally played by 99% of the playerbase. Minera posted:tbh the worst part is, for the most part, the 5v5/1-2-2 team balance seems to be one of the few highly positive feedbacks I hear (aside from the queue times b/c now 40% of the player base has to play support when about 10% of it is actively willing to play it) To this day I highly doubt that having 3 dps mains on dps was significantly lowering anyone's winrate versus forcing one of them to flex onto a role that they didn't normally play because some dude would threaten to int if we didn't get 2 tanks 2 supports. I'm also weird and went into most ow games expecting to play around whatever weird combination of stuff people picked and saw that as just a core part of the game. I had a bunch of games where 5 people said fuckit and locked dps and we ended up running 5dps 1 lucio and team fights were entirely winnable and only moreso once people had ults up. I think there was a fundamental issue where almost zero people are playing actual organized team-style ow in comp or quickplay (outside of teams queuing together for practice or a warmup or whatever) and I don't think that they ever will be, either. It's pretty much an entirely separate game and outside of playing on a team or getting to extremely high rank, it doesn't even really have a lot of relevance to OW as people are actually playing it. 2-2-2 was doubly weird because it wasn't even the actual high-end meta, it was just something forced onto the game. Like I'm glad that 3-3 was ultimately put down because I like seeing hitscans get to play, but enforcing 2-2-2 was about as arbitrary as anything else. I also really enjoyed seeing the weirder comps that would get used situationally in OWL before role-lock. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 11:27 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 11:09
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I mained support and placed gm like all seasons i solo queued and ana was basically a god and being lucio was extremely hard to kill og lucio was way way way worse. When they tightened his aura they massively bumped the damage and projectile speed so that lucio could take duels and reddit on squishies
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May 2, 2022 11:17
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comedyblissoption posted:I mained support and placed gm like all seasons i solo queued and ana was basically a god and being lucio was extremely hard to kill yeah i mean purely the auras, i preferred the weaker larger auras. current lucio projectile speed and movement is clearly better for everyone involved. og lucio's projectiles were so slow it was a bad joke
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May 2, 2022 11:28
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Honestly all the supports had pretty strong survivability except like zen high in the ladder People dont like picking them bc most of the chars are under dps and ppl want to shootymans They shouldve added zen style shootymans to heal
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May 2, 2022 11:32
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There's really no way to fix support short of just straight up turning them into DPS and removing the heal abilities because for the most part people just don't want to heal other players.
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May 2, 2022 11:35
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New Support Role: has the ability to 'reverse heal' your team mates that annoy you
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May 2, 2022 11:36
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Herstory Begins Now posted:supports were numerically strong because ow has insane health pools and high hps healing. supports also felt like poo poo the higher up you go on the ladder as the tracers and genjis and sombras and doomfists got better and better at just deleting them. Good at healing large health pools =/= feels good to play. I don't think you've played the game the last four years if you think Genji gets to pick off backlines
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May 2, 2022 11:40
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Jeff made a comment that people will pick the characters in dive in their plat games but that doesnt mean they were playing dive The same was true in almost all gm games The closest it really got to a support having no survivability was picking zen or playing a no escape support vs crazy doom rollout 1 tricks
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May 2, 2022 11:47
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genji has been trash for ages, doesn't mean people weren't still destroying supports with genjis every single day in gm for years now. being useless in the pro meta doesn't mean something isn't still able to terrorize people on the ladder. doomfist and sombra were the better examples there because of the lack of counter play for like 95% of the characters' existence
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May 2, 2022 11:49
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Sombra and genji werent deleting supports unless that support was zen or the stars aligned to dive the same target Ladder games were weighted to make peeling easier than diving Support chars are really powerful and survivable. Youre just wrong. What it boils down to is people prefer not to be a heal slut comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 11:58 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 11:56
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maybe if it helps visualization, ana with her tinyass hitbox and 100 hp self heal inside a lucio healing aura is a really steep cliff for a solo flanking genji or sombra
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May 2, 2022 12:04
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We talking OW1 or the beta here? In the beta I’ve seen like 2 Lucios actually healing and the rest are just off riding around on walls and shooting people. Not that I’m complaining because it usually works.
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May 2, 2022 12:57
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DVA is probably the best tank in the game at the moment for competitive play. Extremely mobile support peeler with nutso burst, super versatile hero. If your teammate is getting dived, DVA is the only tank in the game that can do anything to save them because of defense matrix and being mobile enough to fly there on time. Zarya bubbles are nice but she's too slow and the bubbles can be baited. Rein, Winston, Orisa, Hog, Doom can't peel at all/too slow in a dive-oriented meta
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May 2, 2022 13:20
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