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Herstory Begins Now posted:I think there was a fundamental issue where almost zero people are playing actual organized team-style ow in comp or quickplay (outside of teams queuing together for practice or a warmup or whatever) and I don't think that they ever will be, either. It's pretty much an entirely separate game and outside of playing on a team or getting to extremely high rank, it doesn't even really have a lot of relevance to OW as people are actually playing it. 2-2-2 was doubly weird because it wasn't even the actual high-end meta, it was just something forced onto the game. Like I'm glad that 3-3 was ultimately put down because I like seeing hitscans get to play, but enforcing 2-2-2 was about as arbitrary as anything else. I also really enjoyed seeing the weirder comps that would get used situationally in OWL before role-lock.
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May 2, 2022 13:39
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Mr. Locke posted:She's fragile as gently caress and right now with mobility and flanks everywhere life is terrifying, but if you get to live as Ana for any signifigant amount of time into a fight your team has probably won. This, to me, is why playing support in gold is un-fun: Football isn't fun if you're the ball. Doomfist saw you? Die. Reaper tele? Call it, but nobody's coming to peel, so you can die in the back or chase your tank through the hellmouth and die there. Hog in the backline? Just stand up and walk away, you're already dead. Both dive tanks hosed off around two corners? Great, now we all die. And TBC this isn't "all their fault" cause we're golds, and we all suck, and if they were playing perfectly they'd be in here bitching about me missing shots and standing in the open and hiding instead of stacking on the tanks and who knows what else. "Click the bad man" is a job everyone at every tier understands, even if we suck at that one too, so there's no mystery about what our responsibilities are. Enabling other people relies on being aware of those other people and what THEY want, which is too much to ask. When you do get two randos in queue who try, though, holy gently caress is it magical. You get the sort of game that really makes you see teh fun potential, then you spend the next week fending off trolls and throwers and shittalking baboons, trying to chase that dragon. I hatelove this game.
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May 2, 2022 14:10
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flakeloaf posted:This, to me, is why playing support in gold is un-fun: Football isn't fun if you're the ball. Doomfist saw you? Die. Reaper tele? Call it, but nobody's coming to peel, so you can die in the back or chase your tank through the hellmouth and die there. Hog in the backline? Just stand up and walk away, you're already dead. Both dive tanks hosed off around two corners? Great, now we all die. See, I am the opposite. I like being an 'objective' because it is more fun for me to juke and dodge while doing my job than to get Big Kills
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May 2, 2022 14:31
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comedyblissoption posted:bap and zen have tremendous damage and murder potential Baptist and Moira (except for like 2 weeks) weren't around for most of when I played - that is, beta through season 3/4 or something? Whatever, a season after Orissa and Doomfist and stuff. Moira is archetypal "why OW has problems being a reasonable shooter", because it is a hero that by design frustrates in competition and makes for quite meh viewing with all the autoaim going on. Winston and Symmetra were the only ones with this problem early on, and at least Winston was a 2-way street where he was generally very punishable and the mechanics of his gun weren't too central to small fights (and really, kind of a good idea for what he brought to the game - disruption). Zen is kind of odd - in the early days, he is exactly what I'm talking about : Most of his kit is offensive, his heals are relatively light and not immediate swings in a fight the way Mercy or Ana's are (and I guess Baptiste, from what I've seen) and they can be performed without having to give up playing the better parts of the game for it (Ana's healing mechanic is kind of nice if you're going to have a burst heal, but its spammy and effectively unaimed right now, which is a different problem). And his ult is pretty reasonable. But of course, he had few ways of surviving - which is in itself not THAT big a problem, but it is a problem when lots of other characters >can< survive primarily on the back of how readily available burst healing is (and maybe: medpacks, for those with mobility). With that last problem he just drops out of the game over time, because he mathematically loses to half-committed attacks that WILL kill him more often than the aggressor. Really the point was just this: Early OW was sort of an accidentially good game. It was more aggressive and deadly than they intended, and faster paced. As time went on, they used heavily constructed (and rarely analyzed) ideas of what "balancing" is to build something that resembles an MMO except in first person. Most competitive shooters, and definitely the ones I enjoy, revolves heavily around rewarding a set of fairly challenging skills - awareness, timing, controlling your own impulses under pressure - and aren't really "balanced" in the sense that anything is ever fair. And I found as time went on, and OW went more towards the latter - trying to be balanced, and in many ways prescriptive, I enjoyed it less and less. Dive meta wasn't even so bad in many ways (the worst being whoever had to be not-Lucio on support), and certainly there was a ton of fun to be had because OW was a fairly frantic game that still had enough lulls to not feel like meaningless TDM. That the specific outgrowth of the presciptive approach was visibly silly was more of a happy accident - but it also feels inevitable whenever the mentality behind changes is to make the game 'just' to players, to avoid immediate frustration. The cost is always in a way that this removes the "game" aspect of the thing, it doesn't feel like play to me anymore after that. comedyblissoption posted:
Yeah it was never about survival, it was that you had to have some people on your team mostly running circles, evading and firing virtually automatic beams so that everybody else (including the other support) could have all the retrys at engaging. The problem is that ignores all the skills that people have spent time honing - and if you're playing it competitively, then there aren't that many skills for you to hone in that role alone. Effective evasion is really only a small subset of the skills that everyone needs - it's a little bit as if CS had a role that was just "smoke thrower" and you don't get a gun. Ana was a tiny bit of a revolution in that sense, but having Mercy or Lucio remained mandatory (Lucio can do things, but within limits). And it kind of makes a chain of odd gameplay: You introduce burst healers who primarily heal. Now whoever has them can push better by far, so they become mandatory to sustain fighting. Now you need a way to bounce off these healers and keep them alive. There comes the natural interaction with tanks. And now you have a shooter in which the 'shooter' part is a bit in the back for up to 2/3rds of the roster in an extreme case. And it kind of chains off the idea of having enormous sustained healing (and to the detriment of other abilities) on characters. Make the healing ancillary the way it is for zen, and things change. Idiot Doom Spiral fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 14:34
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I thought season 1 was fun, ana/rein meta was fun, moth mercy was fun, dive was fun, goats was fun, moira god was fun, brig raid boss was fun, role queue was fun, open queue is fun, mystery heros is fun. Haven't had a chance to play the beta yet, but I'm pretty sure I'll like it as long as there is solid team play and wacky hero diversity. I like the game as long as people that want to solo carry on hitscan are crying about how bad of a shooter it is. Oh and i also like seeing genji mains get poo poo on. headcase fucked around with this message at 15:41 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 15:36
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ImpAtom posted:See, I am the opposite. I like being an 'objective' because it is more fun for me to juke and dodge while doing my job than to get Big Kills Never have I been closer to understanding this, than I was watching Dding and CoMa end the goats meta. Mercy looked fun as hell, playing dodge ball with the entire enemy team headcase posted:I like the game as long as people that want to solo carry on hitscan are crying about how bad of a shooter it is. Oh and i also like seeing genji mains get poo poo on. I, too, am happy with this. If you wanna play COD, go play COD.
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May 2, 2022 16:40
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That's why I hate the movement speed increases for DPS. If I wanna play a twitch shooter I'll go play Cod or Apex. Most of the DPS didn't need it, the ones with mobility needs already had them and Jesus Christ does Echo really need to be harder to hit while making half the support cast sitting ducks?
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May 2, 2022 16:49
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Good Will Hrunting posted:That's why I hate the movement speed increases for DPS. If I wanna play a twitch shooter I'll go play Cod or Apex. Most of the DPS didn't need it, the ones with mobility needs already had them and Jesus Christ does Echo really need to be harder to hit while making half the support cast sitting ducks? To be fair, a lot of the DPS did need it. Think of how middling Cassidy, Mei, or Junkrat have been in the alpha because of their relative lack of ability to move around then think about how awful they would be if Orisa or Doomfist could just run at them with no difficulty. Pharah, Reaper, Ashe, Torbjorn, and especially Symmetra are all characters who I think feel much better with the movement speed buff then they historically have in OW1. Like, I get you might not like DPS heroes being good, but half or more of the DPS heroes being kinda awful compared to the tanks and supports was a huge problem with OW1 and lead to a huge number of the game's issues over it's life since DPS is ultimately the role of having to counter dominant strategies and usually they just couldn't do it.. The problem comes in the form of the already mobility-blessed. The movement speed change cracked the absolute hell out of Soldier 76 in particular as he can now just sprint laps around everyone else while finally getting his improved recoil to work shooting something besides shields and it turns out that when Soldier shoots something besides shields, people loving die.. Sombra and Tracer are also back to being just absolute problems for anyone with a squishy underside and without a bodyguard and with hard CC being in much lower supply any boost to Tracer is probably going to have some long term consequences. Echo's as irritating as ever, and Genji's... trying, but I think everyone in the DPS role being more mobile just kinda points out the flaws with designing him as an ult bot.
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May 2, 2022 17:38
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I haven’t played since 2016ish. Can you use your old cosmetics in 2?
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May 2, 2022 18:31
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Danknificent posted:I haven’t played since 2016ish. Can you use your old cosmetics in 2? They said that you will be able to, yes, but not other way around.
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May 2, 2022 18:35
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Played a bunch of the beta last night for the first time. It mostly feels like they took OW1 and made the visuals slightly better, but then made most of the rest of the game worse by taking away the good parts of many heroes, needlessly reworking others, and then straight up ignoring half of them. However, as a Lucio main I enjoyed being even more unkillable. And all of the rusty, returning OW1 players who haven't touched the game since season 4 made for excellent environmental booping fodder. Didn't the trailer show Lucio boops doing damage if an enemy hits a wall? Where did that go? I was looking forward to it.  e: It did, but it was PVE, so  e2: The game feels way more steamrolly, probably because if the single tank is an idiot it has a lot more impact. I had some games (on both winning and losing sides) where an Orisa or Doomfist just dominated everyone, and then other games where a dumbfuck Hog spent the entire game looking for cheeky hooks while letting his team get plowed. Reducing the number/health pool of shields is great, but removing one tank feels like a real dumb decision. kedo fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 18:51
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Give Hog speedboost and temporary overheal when he huffs gas
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May 2, 2022 19:08
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Hog needs a new ult more than anything else. e: reverse the knockback effect of WH into a pull 
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May 2, 2022 19:12
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the next like, five heroes they release should be supports/tanks. Or maybe do stuff like make Symmetra a support again
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May 2, 2022 19:13
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megane posted:Hog needs a new ult more than anything else. He was completely serviceable at launch, before Geoff got his beard in a braid and made the gun unusable.
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May 2, 2022 19:20
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Tokubetsu posted:dunkey chimes in Megazver posted:Mystery Heroes is, indeed, the best mode.
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May 2, 2022 19:22
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It's just so chill. There's no comp, so there's no griping about comp; at any given moment you can excuse half your team for having no clue what the hell they're doing, occasionally someone gets their main and you have to team up or die, and every now and then the game just decides the cart needs 3 orisas and a bastion and you just play respawn simulator until it's over
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May 2, 2022 19:45
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it's funny that fixing mystery heroes to x-y-z ratio would 'fix' mystery heroes occasionally generating insanely unbalanced team comps, but it would also get rid of like 90% of the charm of the mode, too.
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May 2, 2022 19:50
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I would play the hell out of a competitive mystery heroes mode. There is strategy in assasination and teaming up to take out a lynchpin hero.
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May 2, 2022 20:11
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I too love mystery heroes, it certainly changes the way I play when I have a hero with a potentially game-changing ult at 70% and a fight starts going sour.
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May 2, 2022 20:36
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's funny that fixing mystery heroes to x-y-z ratio would 'fix' mystery heroes occasionally generating insanely unbalanced team comps, but it would also get rid of like 90% of the charm of the mode, too. O quite enjoy mystery heroes, however the majority of the games that frustrate me are the 0 support ones. Honestly if everything was kept the same except teams were forced to have at least one person spawn as a support that'd do it for me.
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May 2, 2022 20:37
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Jack Trades posted:They said that you will be able to, yes, but not other way around. Neat, thanks
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May 2, 2022 21:02
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Re-creating role queue from first principles starting with mystery heroes
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May 2, 2022 21:11
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Sakara123 posted:O quite enjoy mystery heroes, however the majority of the games that frustrate me are the 0 support ones. Honestly if everything was kept the same except teams were forced to have at least one person spawn as a support that'd do it for me. I honestly don't mind zero support games, the more problematic ones are 3+ support or 4+ tank games where a team becomes mathematically unkillable. 3 Mercy games are a nightmare.
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May 2, 2022 21:15
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headcase posted:I would play the hell out of a competitive mystery heroes mode. There is strategy in assasination and teaming up to take out a lynchpin hero. It's always great when someone gets their main and the whole team rallies behind them. Or on the reverse end, seeing a good opponent and throwing everything at them to take'em out. flakeloaf posted:It's just so chill. There's no comp, so there's no griping about comp; at any given moment you can excuse half your team for having no clue what the hell they're doing, occasionally someone gets their main and you have to team up or die, and every now and then the game just decides the cart needs 3 orisas and a bastion and you just play respawn simulator until it's over  In no other modes am I having a good time getting steamrolled. But in Mystery Heroes it's a blast to try and stop them or flank and slow them down.
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May 2, 2022 21:21
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Another masterful touch from Blizzard: The empty sound of wind blowing that plays while you're queuing for 10 minutes
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May 2, 2022 22:06
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Tzen posted:Man that would be fun as hell. I spend a LOT of time in Mystery Heroes trying to get my team to focus the goddamn Bastion
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May 2, 2022 22:15
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I spend a LOT of time in Mystery Heroes trying to get my team to focus the goddamn Bastion they also have a Mercy, unfortunately we have to focus her first, sigh, even though the Bastion is single-handedly winning them the game
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May 2, 2022 22:16
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THE TORB GODDAMMIT KILL THE TORB Plus, the opposing team is just as much of a shitshow as yours is, so if you have a hero that capitalizes on people being lost and clueless, like widow or tracer, you'll go on some tear that makes you feel fantastic and fills your head with all kinds of fool ideas about being able to do the same thing in a comp game. You will not do those same things in a comp game.
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May 2, 2022 23:56
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's funny that fixing mystery heroes to x-y-z ratio would 'fix' mystery heroes occasionally generating insanely unbalanced team comps, but it would also get rid of like 90% of the charm of the mode, too. There's a reason why my take on that fix would only require that a team have one of each role at a time, it prevents the issues that having no tank or support at all can cause but still reasonably allows for weird random shenanigans to occur(since you still could have up to 4 people be in a singular role), same with my suggestion for disallowing duplicate heroes
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May 3, 2022 00:19
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Maybe the PvE will be good! Bwahahahaha thats never coming out.
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May 3, 2022 00:20
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If you add any rules to mystery heroes it ruins the whole thing. Just leave it be and learn to live with the randomness.
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May 3, 2022 01:53
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not tattoo thread lol
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May 3, 2022 02:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:not tattoo thread lol Come on. You can tell us which Overwatch hero you tattooed on your butt.
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May 3, 2022 03:32
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adhuin posted:Come on. You can tell us which Overwatch hero you tattooed on your butt. i had tracer's butt tattooed onto my butt obviously
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May 3, 2022 04:20
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flakeloaf posted:THE TORB GODDAMMIT KILL THE TORB Codependent Poster posted:If you add any rules to mystery heroes it ruins the whole thing. Just leave it be and learn to live with the randomness.
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May 3, 2022 06:54
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Tzen posted:Hahaha I've had so many instances of "wait.. I CAN PLAY GENJI/COWBOY/TRACER AND BE GOOD" only to get completely wrecked on any follow up chances at playing those Heroes. It always comes down to some real perfect storm poo poo, and it's awesome to ride it out. In closing, Get on the hero I've got like 10x the playtime on. Feel like I'm going to stomp face, turn the corner and theres now a bastion that mows me down.
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May 3, 2022 07:18
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Sakara123 posted:Get on the hero I've got like 10x the playtime on. Feel like I'm going to stomp face, turn the corner and theres now a bastion that mows me down. With the Bastion changes in OW2 this no longer happens.
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May 3, 2022 07:23
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Codependent Poster posted:If you add any rules to mystery heroes it ruins the whole thing. Just leave it be and learn to live with the randomness. Hot take: it would be fine is there were several modes - original mystery heroes and a mystery heroes tweak that actually tries to get it a smidge balanced - living side by side in Arcade. Speaking of which, the tanks being straight up stronger now makes me worried about Mystery Heroes in OW2. If they're turning off OW1 and not adding MH to OW2, this is probably when I delete the game.
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May 3, 2022 22:01
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Have they mentioned anything about the OW2 arcade modes yet? I'd be surprised if there's no MH in the OW2 arcade. Even now in the beta you can play MH via the custom games menu. I agree that games could get ugly if a team rolls something like 3 new tanks and 2 healers. Maybe they'll have some rules to prevent that? However, that's kinda always been just something you have to deal with when playing MH. You just have to hope that at some point your team rolls a comp that's even more OP. In OW1 they never put in rules that would prevent knowingly unbalanced comps (e.g. a team could still roll multiple of a single hero, which was removed very early on from regular OW), so I wouldn't be surprised if they do nothing for MH balance in OW2. It seems unlikely that we'd see multiple versions of MH in the playlist. It's already a niche mode so I doubt they'll want to split it into 2 separate queues.
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May 3, 2022 22:23
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