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That could be lessened simply by making the chaos corruption effect a less blanket total color affect and more splotchy even at 100% so therefore the boundaries are less startling it's basic design ooops top of the page i'm of course referring to Hot Topic and wondering if anyone wants to go in on two funny t shirts we could get the same one and it would be 25% off for each of us Twigand Berries fucked around with this message at 13:36 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 13:33
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oh just like an irony purchase kind of thing? sure sure Ill buy it i......ronically......
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May 2, 2022 13:53
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Lt. Lizard posted:The same management that decided to blow up the old Warhammer Fantasy setting also turned Age of Sigmar into unmitigated disaster. It took a pretty massive infusion of new blood into leadership positions of GW to course correct and make Age of Sigmar successful. So the people that made Age of Sigmar successful would most likely made the old Warhammer Fantasy successful as well. And they seem to agree, considering the amount of support Total War: Warhammer recieves from them and the decision to launch the whole "Warhammer: The Old World" thing. Yeah, for all the points about AoS being more financially successful (as if that's all that matters in considering if something is good), I'm pretty sure it wasn't very succesful to begin with and it became succesful when GW got the new management that has, in addition to making AoS pretty successful (though probably still far short of 40k), also been licensing their IPs for video games and stuff like that to much greater extent. Like IIRC it took a decent while for AoS to even have rules that sufficiently differentiated units or actually put balancing limits on the armies you could use. The measurues that eventually made AoS a succsesful and (by most accounts) and fun game/hobby could almost certainly have been applied with just as much success to not-blown-up Warhammer Fantasy as well, making a smaller scale more skirmish style game the main mode of play for instance and introudcing new models and poo poo. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:23 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 15:01
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Twigand Berries posted:That could be lessened simply by making the chaos corruption effect a less blanket total color affect and more splotchy even at 100% so therefore the boundaries are less startling it's basic design I want to see high chaos corruption cause cults to form, OR allow Chaos factions on IE to spawn cults similar to how Skaven can build undercities.
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May 2, 2022 15:27
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ErKeL posted:I didn't realise how bad I wanted Warhammer Oregon Trail until I played Cathay. In hindsight it's an obvious mesh and is sick as hell. I hope they drop the total warhammer 4x style gameplay and just work on more caravan routes and updates. Mount and Blade: Warhammer Caravans
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May 2, 2022 15:38
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:I want to see high chaos corruption cause cults to form, OR allow Chaos factions on IE to spawn cults similar to how Skaven can build undercities. We were talking about graphical, but gameplay wise all of these things you describe are in the game except the buildings are nowhere near as varied as undercities. Think coast pirate havens. e: I suppose you can't create a cult in the sack/raze options but most of the cult buildings don't seem to be worth it maybe if you want to bring Skarbrand on over
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May 2, 2022 15:49
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Randarkman posted:Yeah, for all the points about AoS being more financially successful (as if that's all that matters in considering if something is good), I'm pretty sure it wasn't very succesful to begin with and it became succesful when GW got the new management that has, in addition to making AoS pretty successful (though probably still far short of 40k), also been licensing their IPs for video games and stuff like that to much greater extent. Like IIRC it took a decent while for AoS to even have rules that sufficiently differentiated units or actually put balancing limits on the armies you could use. Yeah when it launched there were no rules for matched play of any kind. The rules were literally "just bring your collection and smash." Fine for a friend group, but impossible if you say, moved. And even among friends you have stuff like lore buffs vs sweaty competitive players where having rules is nice. And what really burned people was when they released the rules for legacy fantasy models, they were insulting. Eg Empire models had stuff like "player with the best facial hair gets a stat buff" or "ride a pretend horse for fatter knights." For the amount of effort that goes into a warhammer army, it was pretty valid to feel like the designers loathed their fans. Like I saved spare change and skipped lunch from around 11-18 to get my full Tomb Kings army. Then in the golden period where I had a crappy job but lived with family, I also got elves and goblins from mostly splitting starter boxes. Finally having complete 2000pt armies felt pretty good. Before any of them were fully modeled and painted, boom, they are cancelled. TK didn't even ever get an update. I think it was a rare example of justified nerd outrage. Even ignoring cost, putting your creative effort into converting/painting/basing/etc is a genuine artistic endeavour imo. You don't really want to stay fans of a company that seems to actively hate you.
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May 2, 2022 15:55
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Lots of nerd hobbies are horrible economic decisions. My internal jury is still out on what's more exploitative between miniatures or collectible card games; either way, I stick to computer gaming because it's a much cheaper hobby as a general rule. So long as you don't get hooked into MMOs anyhow. GW developed a pretty decent setting, but honestly it was almost by accident. The toys to sell came first, the reasoning for why they looked as they do came afterward.
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May 2, 2022 17:51
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Randarkman posted:The measurues that eventually made AoS a succsesful and (by most accounts) and fun game/hobby could almost certainly have been applied with just as much success to not-blown-up Warhammer Fantasy as well, making a smaller scale more skirmish style game the main mode of play for instance and introudcing new models and poo poo. I've got a feeling that the high-fantasy-ization of AoS compared to Fantasy also helped it out a lot. As much as everyone here in this thread(myself included) loves grubby peasants and bearded dudes in poofy sleeves and hats fighting Death Metal Satan Worshippers, that kind of aesthetic doesn't have remotely the kind of mass appeal as more big powerful fantasy magic knight dudes like the Stormcast. A lot of people want to build models of and command Lord Badassicus Stormfist, not Captain Johann Shitstink of Bechafen. Same logic for why Space Marines are so insanely popular despite IG being right there. Basically old Fantasy doesn't have a Cool Super-Strong Generic Badass Good Guy faction for people to latch onto. Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:32 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 18:17
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those people all suck imo
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May 2, 2022 18:30
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Kanos posted:Lord Badassicus Stormfist, not Captain Johann Shitstink of Bechafen correction: buying, assembling, painting, transporting, setting up, moving, and putting away 100 gd copies of Captain Shitstink to make two units of Stinky Men i'm not big fan of AOS but much of what makes it fun in TWW is what made it a huge expensive time-consuming hassle as a miniatures game Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 18:45 on May 2, 2022 |
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May 2, 2022 18:43
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You can still end up with a whole lot of models on the table in AoS.
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May 2, 2022 18:45
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Kanos posted:You can still end up with a whole lot of models on the table in AoS. in AOS, 30 is typical, 50 is a lot, more than that is just skaven, gloomspite gitz, or maybe gravelords. stormcast and seraphon run 10-20 fairly often, and that's not even mentioning all-monster lists like sons of behemat. contrast that with the armies WHFB funnelled new players into, like empire or orcs or skaven. literally 100 soldier models was not an exaggeration for a typical tournament list for those. you didn't get down to AOS-like troop counts except with ogre kingdoms (or brets with no men at arms), and even then 30ish models was pretty much the practical floor. that sort of rank and flank play is what made WHFB the game it was, and what makes TWW a lot of fun. but the way GW packaged and sold models made it impractical as prices crept upwards. and it was always a pain in the rear end to assemble, paint, and transport, further limiting the appeal.
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May 2, 2022 19:01
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Tiler Kiwi posted:those people all suck imo Aye!!!!
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May 2, 2022 19:01
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Cease to Hope posted:in AOS, 30 is typical, 50 is a lot, more than that is just skaven, gloomspite gitz, or maybe gravelords. stormcast and seraphon run 10-20 fairly often, and that's not even mentioning all-monster lists like sons of behemat. contrast that with the armies WHFB funnelled new players into, like empire or orcs or skaven. literally 100 soldier models was not an exaggeration for a typical tournament list for those. you didn't get down to AOS-like troop counts except with ogre kingdoms (or brets with no men at arms), and even then 30ish models was pretty much the practical floor. Yeah from what I've seen, gloomspite gitz are a great comparison to my old night goblins. Sure, it's a big army for AoS, but it's like max 60. And a ton more of them are unique models and units. I painted and based multiple 50-100 sized units of basic night goblins, lovingly matched to my Tomb Kings with bone cloaks, red hats, and desert bases. They were my favourite army to play. But they were just a comedy faction, where 100 gobbos with a lord and a hero in the unit would regularly get deleted by any decent faction in one turn. Gloomspite is up there with chaos for me as units I'd love to see retconned into WHFB races.
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May 2, 2022 21:08
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Yeah the army size difference is absolutely for the better in AoS imo sincerely, Orc player
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May 2, 2022 21:57
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Dandywalken posted:Yeah the army size difference is absolutely for the better in AoS imo Specifically, the army size difference is much better for what the larger market share wants and can handle well, especially the aesthetic revamp (of note here, they specifically are targeting younger audiences with this because they want them to turn into future long term customers ala 40k space marines). And this is something that I don't think Fantasy actually could have handled well because you'd have a VERY weird split in the audience over this if you "anime upped" WHFB. Instead they made the right call and said "gently caress this whales only approach" that had some very...deranged fans (not saying all, but y'all know there are some real fuckin weirdos into chaos/DElves) and hard forked the main fantasy IP into something that could get a wider funnel with both aesthetic appeal and cost reductions through new molding and reduced unit counts. Long term they can back port into the setting ala Old World, or, imo, could also potentially go a...whatever the hell that size scale for the Titans is in 40k? Epic? With an established core revenue driver that justifies investment in the main franchise via offshoots for niche audiences that WILL spend for those set piece units and then can make fast jobs of smaller scale regular units. Add in the forge world bespoke "normal" game scale big units for $$$ and you've got a viable game going. Nerds with obscene money or dedication can build 10k point armies of the regular unit scale for $20k or w/e, people with less investment can grab the "Total War" starter set if it tickles their fancy. Larger armies that need rank and file or real battlefield strategy is just always gonna be niche on tabletop because its complex and expensive. Making that the focus is not good business, but making it a supporting buttress of a core game series that it can ride off of is. I am quite interested in how The Old World is gonna be packaged, and I'm hoping its an aggressive campaign that includes new TTRPG products as well. If nothing else, WHFB was really good for grabbing minis for your own home games that nothing else really hit the spot for me.
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May 2, 2022 23:14
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Kanos posted:I've got a feeling that the high-fantasy-ization of AoS compared to Fantasy also helped it out a lot. As much as everyone here in this thread(myself included) loves grubby peasants and bearded dudes in poofy sleeves and hats fighting Death Metal Satan Worshippers, that kind of aesthetic doesn't have remotely the kind of mass appeal as more big powerful fantasy magic knight dudes like the Stormcast. A lot of people want to build models of and command Lord Badassicus Stormfist, not Captain Johann Shitstink of Bechafen. Same logic for why Space Marines are so insanely popular despite IG being right there. Eh, I kind of feel the 40k situation is somewhat of a chicken/egg thing. Yes, Space Marines are the most popular, but they're also the most pushed models too, whether in books, advertising, media, etc. So it kind of feels like a situation where they're decently popular, then they get more advertising which makes them even more popular, repeat ad infinitum. Meanwhile other factions get less and languish. Like, it's admittedly been a long time since I've stepped into a games store, but I always recall seeing quite a few people playing Orks and Eldar in particular in addition to Imperial factions. But nowadays looking at the at GW marketing and 40k channels it just seems that Space Marine factions (whether Imperial or Chaos) have just been pushed more and more. Not that they weren't always popular, but 5th edition and certain people in charge really seemed to start tilting the scales then and it's never really stopped.
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May 2, 2022 23:38
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They're putting out a full line of models for the Horus Heresy which is nothing but Space Marines vs Space Marines as well
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May 2, 2022 23:42
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Cease to Hope posted:correction: buying, assembling, painting, transporting, setting up, moving, and putting away 100 gd copies of Captain Shitstink to make two units of Stinky Men this is why Ogres and Dwarfs were the best WHFB factions
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May 3, 2022 00:03
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When people play warhammer in person do they pick up the toys and mash them together when they fight? Or how does it work?
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May 3, 2022 00:18
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Funky See Funky Do posted:When people play warhammer in person do they pick up the toys and mash them together when they fight? Or how does it work? It's a game with rules.
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May 3, 2022 00:36
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Funky See Funky Do posted:When people play warhammer in person do they pick up the toys and mash them together when they fight? Or how does it work? Imagine if Total War battles weren't on your computer, but you had to go get on your bicycle ride to the games store, but oh wait, you got pantsed on the way sorry no minis for you today
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May 3, 2022 00:45
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Lord Koth posted:Eh, I kind of feel the 40k situation is somewhat of a chicken/egg thing. Yes, Space Marines are the most popular, but they're also the most pushed models too, whether in books, advertising, media, etc. So it kind of feels like a situation where they're decently popular, then they get more advertising which makes them even more popular, repeat ad infinitum. Meanwhile other factions get less and languish. Like, it's admittedly been a long time since I've stepped into a games store, but I always recall seeing quite a few people playing Orks and Eldar in particular in addition to Imperial factions. But nowadays looking at the at GW marketing and 40k channels it just seems that Space Marine factions (whether Imperial or Chaos) have just been pushed more and more. yeah this is basically it unfortunately Funky See Funky Do posted:When people play warhammer in person do they pick up the toys and mash them together when they fight? Or how does it work? the rules aren't great so yeah they just mash them together and make pew pew noises
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May 3, 2022 01:02
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I'm pretty skeptical that the aesthetics or lore of Age of Sigmar have, well, anything to do with its relative popularity to WFB compared to one being enormously more economic and approachable to play than the other. And unfortunately it's impossible to gauge since the two changes were and are a package deal.
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May 3, 2022 01:06
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The AoS lore is uhhhhhhhh gestures nervously to this thread and the last and every loving AoS derail but AoS aesthetics are good and fun unless all you know about AoS is "hmmm yes sigmar marines how droll." I'd love to see loads of AoS units get ported into WH3 as new units, particularly for Chaos and Gobbos.
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May 3, 2022 01:22
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AOS would be fine if it was completely separate from WHFB. The whole sigmarine thing is just such a huge stretch from where the fluff had been forever. Sigmar was like, charlemagne or whatever. A semi mythical warrior king and founder of the empire. The cult of sigmar is ancestor worship. Not like, sigmars a super sky god and all the other gods just vibe with him and make sigmarines or whatever also, they are orruks now. edit: bring back the death thread
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May 3, 2022 01:26
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As someone who played fantasy as a kid the rank-and-file organization was a big draw to me both aesthetically/thematically and mechanics-wise. At the same time I quit playing due to lack of anyone to play with long before AoS so it's not like I blame GW for not catering to me there lol. I also sucked at painting and the large model count was definitely a drawback on that point, but my playgroup was never strict on looks. But yeah I'll probably never go back to playing Warhammer on the tabletop (I also really dislike Space Marines and by extent its AoS equivalent).
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May 3, 2022 01:34
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Funky See Funky Do posted:When people play warhammer in person do they pick up the toys and mash them together when they fight? Or how does it work? The big reason is that normally the winner of a table top match takes all the miniatures of the loser. This can be very lucrative if you are good at the game, a large Necron army can easily be ebayed or sold back to the original owner for a lot of $$$
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May 3, 2022 01:41
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I don't agree at all that Sigmarines are responsible for AoS being a success or that the lack of a "hero" faction was a reason for WHFB's low sales. It's hard to overstate how neglected WHFB was by the time it was replaced by AoS. To illustrate: the two last Fantasy releases before End Times were Wood Elves and Dwarfs, both of which had not been updated in almost a decade at that point. If someone wanted to start playing one of those factions around 2012 or so, they would have needed to buy ugly as gently caress ancient models from the late 90s/early 2000s and use a 2005 armybook that was two whole editions behind. When those armies got updated to 8th edition, they sold like crazy. At the time of the 2014 Wood Elf release my local store's owned told me it was by far the highest selling GW army release since he'd been running the store. Even bigger than popular 40k factions. AoS sold well because GW actually took it seriously and pushed it. Turns out when you release a giant range of nice, new modern models with up to date rules and hype the poo poo out of them people buy the loving product.
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May 3, 2022 02:31
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Omnicarus posted:The big reason is that normally the winner of a table top match takes all the miniatures of the loser. This can be very lucrative if you are good at the game, a large Necron army can easily be ebayed or sold back to the original owner for a lot of $$$ The big reason for what? I don't understand.
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May 3, 2022 02:55
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It's much like pogs.
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May 3, 2022 03:35
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Doomykins posted:but AoS aesthetics are good and fun
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May 3, 2022 04:01
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Most players these days can't play the tournament scene, it's a wealthy man's game. Most players rent their armies straight from GW.
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May 3, 2022 04:01
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Oh dear god late game those cathay sieges are not fun and really bad--get that mod that fixes it because 6 20 stacks every 5 turns is absurd. They have siege attacker too because of their mammoths so they just sit around doing nothing to all of the sudden HELLO. I'm tempted to keep an all terracotta army sitting close by unless that fix works with saved games. Who made this great fortress with 3 gates? Why wouldn't you have have 3 gates in a row? Why isn't there a moat forcing the entire enemy army to funnel down a single bridge? Shoulda had a dawi design your fortress--ain't no one taking slayer keep just saying.
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May 3, 2022 07:28
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Lord Koth posted:Eh, I kind of feel the 40k situation is somewhat of a chicken/egg thing. Yes, Space Marines are the most popular, but they're also the most pushed models too, whether in books, advertising, media, etc. So it kind of feels like a situation where they're decently popular, then they get more advertising which makes them even more popular, repeat ad infinitum. Meanwhile other factions get less and languish. Like, it's admittedly been a long time since I've stepped into a games store, but I always recall seeing quite a few people playing Orks and Eldar in particular in addition to Imperial factions. But nowadays looking at the at GW marketing and 40k channels it just seems that Space Marine factions (whether Imperial or Chaos) have just been pushed more and more. Even when I played 40k back in the late 90s and early 2000s across multiple game stores, the amount of Space Marine players to every other faction players was something like 5 to 1. It's absolutely a self-perpetuating cycle - marines are popular in part because they're pushed - but even outside of 40k itself, the prevalence of Big Badass Awesome Space Marine Dudes across like every form of media from movies to video games suggests that people really, really like Big Badass Awesome Space Marine Dudes in general.
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May 3, 2022 07:40
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https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2789921931 Wait what. Why. Encamp doesn't work inside your own province only enemies hahaha wtf--mod fixes it though it might have been intentional?? Also funny https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2791147884 Cathay tower are all copied and pasted for T1-3 so T4-5 are default at T1 towers, above mod fixes that. Sadly the coding fix for the endless bastion invasion doesn't work anymore so we'll likely not see them fix their code for months. Basically the values are incorrect and the bastion invasions are not supposed to happen so frequently.
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May 3, 2022 07:50
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Kanos posted:Even when I played 40k back in the late 90s and early 2000s across multiple game stores, the amount of Space Marine players to every other faction players was something like 5 to 1. It's absolutely a self-perpetuating cycle - marines are popular in part because they're pushed - but even outside of 40k itself, the prevalence of Big Badass Awesome Space Marine Dudes across like every form of media from movies to video games suggests that people really, really like Big Badass Awesome Space Marine Dudes in general. gently caress that. From vintage Space Marine (the precursor to EPIC) onwards, my philosophy never wavered : "Give me enough artillery tubes to cover your entire deployment zone in pie plates, then a dozen more siege mortars just to round things up". Imperial Guard is where it's at. Which is also why the Empire is where it's at (although Vampirates are kind of OK too, I s'pose).
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May 3, 2022 08:04
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It's interesting to hear about Space Marine domination because when I played Fantasy back around 2000 - 2008, we had about 10 - 12 regular players and a couple occasionals, and there was almost no army overlap at all. Personally I played Vampire Counts and Dark Elves (mr edge here), my best friends played Bret/Lizards and Beastmen/High Elves. We had the Skaven player, the Tomb Kings player, the Empire player, a second guy playing HE, the Warriors of Chaos player, the Dwarf player, etc. I think only HE, Lizardmen and Vampire counts was played by more than one person, and in all three cases one of the players picked it up as their secondary army. I guess in our case it was a purely grassroots effort for my friend group (I remember we convinced our local rural toy store to buy Warhammer inventory lol) rather than a case of an LGS pushing product in a big city, which probably has different connotations. E: fun fact I stole my username from a random on a WH forum back in like 2003 and well, the last 2 years have not been kind to it lol
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May 3, 2022 08:14
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The post about the AI rolling in and winning on turn 161 of your campaign kinda ties in a discussion in the 4X thread about why AI in strategy games is usually pretty bad. Part of the answer is that making an AI that can play a complex game is very hard and that post is basically the other half: players say they want good AI but actually losing to an AI after 15 hours feels like poo poo most of the time. So it ends up as a very low development priority. You can't underestimate the first part either. When they trained an AI to play a limited subset of Dota, it took millions of hours of automated testing and a lot of hardware resources to be able to beat human players. Which it did, quite easily, at first. But then, people figured out how to exploit its behavior and it was back to being a dumb bot that was easy to beat if you knew how to confuse it. Computers do much, much better in games where there are a limited number of possible moves. Maybe we'll eventually get to the point where machine learning will be sophisticated enough that adding an AI with the competence of an average human player is a no-brainer but we're not there yet.
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