FINAL FANTASY XIV: WoL Makeover Station (Patch 6.55) (DT Early Access 6/28)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > FINAL FANTASY XIV: WoL Makeover Station (Patch 6.55) (DT Early Access 6/28)

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Dwesa: Jul 19, 2016; Maybe I'll go where I can see stars

A Moose posted:

I feel like there is a difference between how well the game mode is actually balanced, and how well people think its balanced. Some things might be EXTREMELY popular because they are perceived as being good. I don't think WAR and WHM are THAT much stronger than everything else. I think its just because we see them all the time, every game, and we see them all the time every game because people think they're good. After all, they must be good, otherwise why would people play them every game? Its just a meme that reinforces itself. There might have been some truth to it at first but just try some different things.

yes, I think there was a bit of a surprise when it was found there are many RDMs among the top 100, because it was not considered OP job back then, but no SMNs

# ? May 3, 2022 17:38

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# ? May 27, 2024 23:21

Maximum Tomfoolery: Apr 12, 2010

WHM and WAR should probably be nerfed, but they aren't crazy overpowered, as long as your team isn't trying to stack the whole party onto the crystal at all times. If you can keep them from hitting more than 1 or 2 people at a time with their stuns, they're perfectly manageable to fight against. If your team is standing close enough together to all get hit by multiple aoe cc/nukes at once, you're in for a bad time regardless of the enemy composition.

# ? May 3, 2022 17:43

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

AncientSpark posted:

Yeah, WAR being "meta" is deceptive, because WAR is often a test of "Do you understand the damage paradigm in PvP" and you will get smashed immediately in higher tiers even as WAR if you don't understand that, as all jobs die to concentrated fire of 3+ people pretty much immediately, while WAR does not have enough damage to realistically 1v1 unless you have LB. WHM is a bit different because WHM lets you hang back a lot more and has a lot of free bail-outs, so it tends to be far more oppressive for people that don't know what they're doing vs a well-coordinated team.

And, tbh, a lot of the jobs are people just still not knowing what they're doing. For example, GNB is undertuned right now as a tank, but GNB has amongst the highest DPS among all classes in the game, so the current correct way to play GNB is to go full DPS junction and smash people. And while this still lands them amongst the worst classes in the game, that's actually largely an issue of utility/disruptability right now and almost any GNB that is left unharassed and knows what they're doing will smash your team way faster than a WAR will.

That's sort of the joke. The meta in CC is really about well you disrupt opponents and how well you resist getting disrupted yourself, because even the highest DPS classes in the game can't kill you 1v1 in less than 20-ish seconds without LB unless they time their CC correctly. DRG, despite being a pure damage class, is more meta because they resist disruption incredibly well with their disengage and toolset, in addition to their damage serving as a disruption tool. NIN is similar to DRG in that sense except with even better disengage and actual CC tools in exchange for losing more normal damage tools as disruption. SAM is semi-meta because people are incentivized not to disrupt you. WAR and WHM are meta because they're the best at disrupting enemies with CC. But this idea behind the meta doesn't actually show up very well in lower ranks because people aren't on the ball with their defensives and don't have good focus fire tactics. By comparison, every job that is "not meta" usually lacks the ability to resist disruption, or simply doesn't have the correct mix of damage and utility to properly disrupt an opponent from executing their gameplan (BLM, a very low-to-mid tierish example, depending on who you ask, is a good example of this because they are incredibly powerful at disrupting opponents due to chain Deep Freeze or booting opponents off the point with pure fire damage, but they have no recourse against disruption themselves).

It just happens to be an unfortunate coincidence that the "meta" jobs happen to also be the classes with the easiest skill floor, so stuff WAR/WHM/DRG/SAM breaks lower ranks, but for generally different (and far more broken) reasons (less so for NIN because NIN is a bit harder to play). Whereas the meta in the top ranks is still lopsided towards those classes, but to a way less egregious degree, because the damage difference has to be pretty extreme (i.e., PLD vs most other classes) for it to be the deciding factor behind whether a class is good or not.

It's for this reason that a lot of lower ranked players tried to claim pre-patch RDM wasn't broken while it was, in fact, competitive for the best classes in the game back then (with some higher ranked people claiming it was only exceeded by WHM ), and why RDM fell more significantly in meta after the patch as their largest nerf was targeted at their main disruption tool (Resolution). Their DoT nerfs were painful, sure, but they still had enough DPS to chew through an entire MP bar in one combo anyway, so it was less impactful than it seemed, by comparison.

This is a good post, and as someone who recently arrived in Gold, it's really clear that the deciding factor in a match is who "breaks" first--as in morale breaks. The best matches I have are when my team is systematically focusing one target after another. People melt under concentrated attacks, and if guards aren't up this will quickly snowball. Playing SAM, I find that my LB is extremely useful for getting my team into this state since being able to 100-0 someone, even without the class fantasy of getting a pentakill, can and will give your team the momentum. I've also had some good luck blunting a counter-push with this: if the enemy team falls back and regroups baiting-and-deleting one of them when they reengage can completely end their counterplay because the 5v5 they just spent 10 seconds setting up turned into a 5v4.

I've watched even matches completely disintegrate (from both perspectives) this way.

# ? May 3, 2022 17:45

Tamba: Apr 5, 2010

Oneiros posted:

smn (and now apparently sch?) do absolutely ridiculous damage in frontlines

i've watched coordinated smn lb's delete entire teams in seconds

Scholar is ridiculous because they have a dot that does 15k damage over 15 seconds, and they can spread it to everyone in a 15y radius.
The scary thing about dots is, that they continue to tick for their original potency, even if you use Guard after they've been applied.
And the cooldown on deployment tactics is 15 seconds as well, so they can keep it up forever.

# ? May 3, 2022 17:48

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Warmachine posted:

This is a good post, and as someone who recently arrived in Gold, it's really clear that the deciding factor in a match is who "breaks" first--as in morale breaks. The best matches I have are when my team is systematically focusing one target after another. People melt under concentrated attacks, and if guards aren't up this will quickly snowball. Playing SAM, I find that my LB is extremely useful for getting my team into this state since being able to 100-0 someone, even without the class fantasy of getting a pentakill, can and will give your team the momentum. I've also had some good luck blunting a counter-push with this: if the enemy team falls back and regroups baiting-and-deleting one of them when they reengage can completely end their counterplay because the 5v5 they just spent 10 seconds setting up turned into a 5v4.

I've watched even matches completely disintegrate (from both perspectives) this way.

I've done this. A well-timed silence on someone who thought they'd be able to disengage can work wonders. Particularly on someone who things playing a WAR or DRG makes them invincible.

# ? May 3, 2022 17:49

A Moose: Oct 22, 2009

Dwesa posted:

yes, I think there was a bit of a surprise when it was found there are many RDMs among the top 100, because it was not considered OP job back then, but no SMNs

And now it looks like NIN is replacing SAM. I'm betting they'll do some token nerf on WHM and WAR that doesn't actually make them any worse but will change public perception enough that other things get tried out and people find out that, for example, PLD is good.

# ? May 3, 2022 17:57

Roluth: Apr 22, 2014

Part of the reason BRD is at least playable is that they have a 3s silence oGCD. That alone brought me to Gold by securing kills, even if I did not get the kill myself.

# ? May 3, 2022 17:59

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

The alternative is diving into a 1v5 in overtime and turning it into a 1v1 because the other team didn't respect your LB :v:

That was a stupid but satisfying match.

# ? May 3, 2022 18:06

Chillgamesh: Jul 29, 2014

A Moose posted:

And now it looks like NIN is replacing SAM. I'm betting they'll do some token nerf on WHM and WAR that doesn't actually make them any worse but will change public perception enough that other things get tried out and people find out that, for example, PLD is good.

PLD would rule if it actually did damage. Holy Sheltron's damage effect could always trigger for the full effect and that would instantly make them really strong, same as if they gave Gunbreaker literally any CC outside of their limit break.

# ? May 3, 2022 18:14

Vitamean: May 31, 2012

wanna talk about broken morale

https://twitter.com/vitaminohm/status/1521276171966681088

# ? May 3, 2022 18:34

Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

I only played CC to Gold but the few times I saw someone spam Nice Match! after a setback early in a game we ended up winning in the end, ragequitting in that mode is real dumb

# ? May 3, 2022 18:42

Magil Zeal: Nov 24, 2008

Vitamean posted:

wanna talk about broken morale

https://twitter.com/vitaminohm/status/1521276171966681088

Oh hey I'm in this image (on the enemy team). Finally managed to push from diamond 5 to crystal after many false starts over the last week.

Flavahbeast posted:

I only played CC to Gold but the few times I saw someone spam Nice Match! after a setback early in a game we ended up winning in the end, ragequitting in that mode is real dumb

Yeah I've had a lot of games, especially in higher ranks, where you get an early kerfuffle and are pushed back only to counter-push to a victory, or even where you have an early lead and get wiped out, but then in overtime the enemy steps out of the crystal and you win because of progress.

# ? May 3, 2022 18:45

Vitamean: May 31, 2012

Magil Zeal posted:

Oh hey I'm in this image (on the enemy team). Finally managed to push from diamond 5 to crystal after many false starts over the last week.

it was a really bizarre match because I didn't even notice how many people bailed until I died the second time. I'm generally okay with losing even if it's a complete stomp, but having one dude bail after one wipe and then two more people follow up (and getting one of them in my very next match) did tweak a nerve. couldn't help feeling like a dweeb for reporting them but maybe they shouldn't be losers.

congrats on hitting crystal though!

# ? May 3, 2022 18:51

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

Vitamean posted:

it was a really bizarre match because I didn't even notice how many people bailed until I died the second time. I'm generally okay with losing even if it's a complete stomp, but having one dude bail after one wipe and then two more people follow up (and getting one of them in my very next match) did tweak a nerve. couldn't help feeling like a dweeb for reporting them but maybe they shouldn't be losers.

congrats on hitting crystal though!

Nah, report the poo poo out of people like this. They need to get timed out now so this doesn't turn into a LoL-esque salt mine.

edit: I need one of those "See Something? Say Something!" propaganda posters except with Mi'qote and Lalafel.

# ? May 3, 2022 19:26

TheWorldsaStage: Sep 10, 2020

https://twitter.com/Target/status/1521299247420878849?t=ZyZCQSx0SM0zwnIr5wPVzg&s=19

Target knows what's up

# ? May 3, 2022 19:53

Vitamean: May 31, 2012

thank you brands

# ? May 3, 2022 19:54

Note Block: May 14, 2007; nothing could fit so perfectly inside; Fun Shoe

relevant to our love/frustration with CC

https://twitter.com/thancredmatsu/status/1521171155930861568?s=20&t=n5axc5pSuIMSfrgPrPunLg

# ? May 3, 2022 20:32

sassassin: Apr 3, 2010; by Azathoth

Playing white mage and Holy is just too damned bright.

# ? May 3, 2022 20:51

Frida Call Me: Sep 28, 2001; Boy, you gotta carry that weight
Carry that weight a long time

don't worry after playing white mage for a few more hours your retinas will turn into mush and you'll no longer have that complaint

# ? May 3, 2022 21:03

Vermain: Sep 5, 2006

i will gladly abacinate myself on the altar of holy if it means never having to hear the god drat loving "person chewing ice loudly in restaurant" sound of stone IV ever again

# ? May 3, 2022 21:22

Pigbuster: Sep 12, 2010; Fun Shoe

https://twitter.com/twilightpopoto/status/1521533372937359360
:frogbon:

# ? May 3, 2022 22:20

The Black Stones: May 7, 2007; I POSTED WHAT NOW!?

I just want to shake people at PvP. Our party is pushing the Crystal, the opposition lost 3 people and their machinist is simply harassing me without managing to kill me in our end. Why does 1 person on our team retreat to help me!? I don�t need it. But thanks for letting the now 4 on 3 happen the Crystal.

Edit: I just watched a team member die by walking himself into the map tornado. I�m super cursed for teams.

The Black Stones fucked around with this message at 23:45 on May 3, 2022

# ? May 3, 2022 23:39

AncientSpark: Jan 18, 2013

People are just too used to hero shooters/MOBAs where 1v1 is a legitimate tactic instead of just an incredibly niche thing to do.

# ? May 3, 2022 23:42

Regalingualius: Jan 7, 2012; We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.

Is the CC roulette busted? Because I�ve only gotten the volcano and �regular� arena once. Literally every single one has otherwise been on the windmill map.

# ? May 4, 2022 00:14

Arist: Feb 13, 2012; _{who, me?}

The map changes on a timer globally.

# ? May 4, 2022 00:15

Tamba: Apr 5, 2010

It changes every 90 minutes.

# ? May 4, 2022 00:18

Yapping Eevee: Nov 12, 2011; STAND TOGETHER.
FIGHT WITH HONOR.
RESTORE BALANCE.

Eevees play for free.

Which means there's 16 changes a day, so what a specific 90-minute block is each day will cycle. If you played in the same time period across three days, you'd get all vanilla day 1, all bomb day 2, all wind day 3. (Or wherever you happen to start in that cycle.)

# ? May 4, 2022 00:33

Axel Serenity: Sep 27, 2002

You can see what map is currently up in the info section of the DF

# ? May 4, 2022 00:39

bagrada: Aug 4, 2007; The Demogorgon is tired of your silly human bickering!

I get the windy map 99% of the time, usually playing the same evening time slot. I would have sworn it was always that map during the evening time I play. I've gotten the race track map less than five times, and I got the lava map once on sunday afternoon just in time for it to change to the windy map again for the next three.

# ? May 4, 2022 00:41

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

The Black Stones posted:

I just want to shake people at PvP. Our party is pushing the Crystal, the opposition lost 3 people and their machinist is simply harassing me without managing to kill me in our end. Why does 1 person on our team retreat to help me!? I don�t need it. But thanks for letting the now 4 on 3 happen the Crystal.

Edit: I just watched a team member die by walking himself into the map tornado. I�m super cursed for teams.

I had a fight on the Stadium map where three of them went around the left side at the start. We see this and are waiting for them with range and a clear field of view. So what does our ninja do? Run around the corner where we can't support and tries to take them all on.

# ? May 4, 2022 00:52

Mad Wack: Mar 27, 2008; "The faster you use your cooldowns, the faster you can use them again"

i get the bomb map a lot, but i have learned to appreciate it

# ? May 4, 2022 01:16

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

The Black Stones posted:

I just want to shake people at PvP. Our party is pushing the Crystal, the opposition lost 3 people and their machinist is simply harassing me without managing to kill me in our end. Why does 1 person on our team retreat to help me!? I don�t need it. But thanks for letting the now 4 on 3 happen the Crystal.

Edit: I just watched a team member die by walking himself into the map tornado. I�m super cursed for teams.

This is why I only queue for casual. I usually play after work when Im easily distracted or tired and walk into a tornado or lava blast, so at least when it inevitably happens its not going to upset anyone (might even make them laugh. I hope...).

# ? May 4, 2022 02:08

Thumbtacks: Apr 3, 2013

honeslty the ones with map hazards are more fun than the boring one with no hazards

# ? May 4, 2022 03:02

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

the only map i don't like is the windy one because the initial mid fight sucks even if the wind is cool

# ? May 4, 2022 03:05

Cleretic: Feb 3, 2010; Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

I like the windy map because there's an in-built event that has a chance to turn things around, which can really help sometimes.

It's also extremely funny to be Guarding properly when the enemies aren't and suddenly they go flying. 'Bye, bitch!' A nice gift for MCH, too, since the gust will reliably take them i to LB-able range.

# ? May 4, 2022 03:12

Zeruel: Mar 27, 2010; Alert: bad post spotted.

frankly I can't tell what the rest of my team is doing, i'm trying to focus on what the enemy team is doing.

# ? May 4, 2022 03:24

Twibbit: Mar 7, 2013; Is your refrigerator running?

I hate the volcano the most, even if it let's me kill with stuns

# ? May 4, 2022 04:14

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

I love the volcano, but because of how chaotic it is. It's about who can ride the wave the best. I'm the kind of guy who plays Smash Brothers with items on.

What I REALLY appreciate is that all the maps feel fair and relatively similar, but you CAN have a favorite for reasons.

# ? May 4, 2022 04:46

AncientSpark: Jan 18, 2013

The maps all feel fair, but gently caress the wind map anyway.

# ? May 4, 2022 05:07

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# ? May 27, 2024 23:21

Kagaya Homoraisan: Aug 28, 2019; You say, run away
Instead, you get scared
For the way that I feel
Drops out into all this disorder

the combo of the windstorm and the easy access to mid via jump pads make cloud nine especially brutal. in the other maps if you wipe out the other team you genuinely get a nice shot of breathing room if youre close to your starting base cuz it takes a decent chunk of time for them to get back after rezzing. this makes it easier to stage a comeback. cloud nine is the opposite because there is basically nowhere on the map the enemy team cant reach very quickly from their spawn. and the wind is pretty difficult to avoid damage on top of it. i think its fun in that regard because its pretty easy to rack up insane kills or always be a nuisance because its so easy to get back in the fight.

that also makes it bad cuz its that much easier for a dumb teammate to insist on a 1v5 and drag you down the whole time. i like it overall but its prob the most polarizing map.

# ? May 4, 2022 05:18

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