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Lockback posted:* reddit ... the fiction section but you repeat yourself e:  why am I always committing the shittiest snipes. Here's Lockback's useful post that I sniped with my shitpost:Lockback posted:Yeah, it's good to do this (professionally*). I've seen feedback like that change hiring practices quickly at good places, and at bad places the change happens too just takes way longer. Though you should note that a lot of times they CAN fill these jobs at the lower rates, it's just with people with far lower skills. Really though, many years ago I thought reddit or at least certain subreddits were useful and worthwhile but the whole drat site is an irredeemable cesspool now.
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May 4, 2022 13:47
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Lockback posted:Though you should note that a lot of times they CAN fill these jobs at the lower rates, it's just with people with far lower skills. This is the other reason why you don't want to be underpaid. Even if you hate money for some unfathomable reason, you probably do want competent and capable coworkers, and you don't find those at places that routinely pay below market, whatever "market" is for your job.
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May 4, 2022 19:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you don't need leverage, you just need to state what you want Only asking because I know explicit choice of wording can be important in these situations, but should I basically say what you outlined verbatim, or would it be wise at all to fluff it up a bit with some niceties? “Thanks for the offer, I’m excited to deliver some high quality bearfucking, though the compensation does seem a tad lower than I would have expected. Is there any chance we can achieve something like $X base salary, $Y signing bonus? I’d be willing to sign an offer for that amount immediately and officially initiate the process of joining the team!”
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May 5, 2022 14:57
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That's too nice. Some politeness is good, but I read this as "I will accept but also can I have more?" “Thank you for the offer. If we can do X and Y, I’d be willing to sign an offer immediately and officially initiate the process of joining the team! I think this is a great fit and excited to start loving those bears.”
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May 5, 2022 15:20
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"is there any chance" = you are a weak little baby and will cave as soon as I say "this is the offer, do you accept?" that may not be what you are intending to signify and it may not be your position but part of negotiation is stating your position clearly and unequivocally.
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May 5, 2022 15:33
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Overstating your position, if you can get away with it. Understating your position is really bad.
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May 5, 2022 15:40
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And the number I ask for should be $X + 15-20%, in anticipation of them splitting the difference, right?
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May 5, 2022 16:01
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Eric the Mauve posted:Overstating your position, if you can get away with it. Understating your position is really bad. Position is not the same as what you are willing to accept (more a comment for general readers than for you!). Gin_Rummy posted:And the number I ask for should be $X + 15-20%, in anticipation of them splitting the difference, right? see above
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May 5, 2022 16:14
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Gin_Rummy posted:And the number I ask for should be $X + 15-20%, in anticipation of them splitting the difference, right? Depends on what market is. If they come in above market, you’ll look naive asking for 20% more. Conversely, the number might be 50% if they’re way under
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May 5, 2022 16:53
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Simply say “honestly I expected more. This is my current negotiating position: …”. They will not laugh you off the phone. Write a script and read off it. No seriously, write it out on paper and literally read from it while on the phone. Sales learned this trick a long time ago, makes saying the right thing at the right time so much easier.
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May 5, 2022 16:56
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Dik Hz posted:Depends on what market is. If they come in above market, you’ll look naive asking for 20% more. Based on most available data points for this position, the total comp they’re offering me is about $20k less than what is average. 15-20% would be about 40k more, but if they meet me in the middle like I would expect, then I am right where I expect the offer to be. Since most of the compensation is in RSUs, I’m kind of thinking they would not balk at that ask? qhat posted:Simply say “honestly I expected more. This is my current negotiating position: …”. They will not laugh you off the phone. Write a script and read off it. No seriously, write it out on paper and literally read from it while on the phone. Sales learned this trick a long time ago, makes saying the right thing at the right time so much easier. Is it always best to do this stuff over the phone? I feel like if I try to get this guy on a call he is just going to delay/push back to their arbitrary deadline, whereas if I just say outright in an email what I’m after he has the terms right away.
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May 5, 2022 17:14
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Gin_Rummy posted:Is it always best to do this stuff over the phone? I feel like if I try to get this guy on a call he is just going to delay/push back to their arbitrary deadline, whereas if I just say outright in an email what I’m after he has the terms right away. If I had to choose then I’d do it over the phone, it’s more efficient for negotiation, but I also don’t have anxiety about negotiation so it doesn’t bother me when making demands. Email is fine but IMO there’s more pressure to get to the point quickly since negotiating over email is slow and just kinda sucks honestly, but all your demands are in writing at least so there’s little room for interpretation. Ymmv
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May 5, 2022 17:18
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if you suck at negotiation and you haven't done it much before you should absolutely do it over email imo
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May 5, 2022 17:32
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Please don't ever actually say "my current negotiating position"
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May 5, 2022 17:44
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Just to chip in what worked for me last time, with someone that has extensive experience, was "hi! I'm really excited to join the team and think this is a great fit. For (my min acceptable + 8%) I can sign." "I can do (lower than min)" "I feel really good about the opportunity, but I need at least (min) to make it happen." "Agreed" Could I have squeezed out a little more? Maybe, maybe not. But they agreed to what I decided beforehand, and I felt like it was a win. Have your minimum acceptable in mind, stick to it, and don't work out justifications for your ask to them. You need at least x to accept their offer, and if they don't provide x you hit da bricks.
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May 5, 2022 19:25
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So do I tell the hiring manager one of my favorite youth stories of how actually, small world, I met his daughter on an online gaming forum and we hung out for a day and she took tasteful photos of me in her racecar bed in the basement to seal the deal or do I save that for after the probationary period?
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May 5, 2022 19:36
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Asproigerosis posted:So do I tell the hiring manager one of my favorite youth stories of how actually, small world, I met his daughter on an online gaming forum and we hung out for a day and she took tasteful photos of me in her racecar bed in the basement to seal the deal or do I save that for after the probationary period? Tell this story the day you find your next job
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May 5, 2022 20:10
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I'd hope this would be my last stop short of like Applications specialist.
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May 5, 2022 21:22
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Asproigerosis posted:So do I tell the hiring manager one of my favorite youth stories of how actually, small world, I met his daughter on an online gaming forum and we hung out for a day and she took tasteful photos of me in her racecar bed in the basement to seal the deal or do I save that for after the probationary period? What in the world ..
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May 5, 2022 22:40
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Asproigerosis posted:So do I tell the hiring manager one of my favorite youth stories of how actually, small world, I met his daughter on an online gaming forum and we hung out for a day and she took tasteful photos of me in her racecar bed in the basement to seal the deal or do I save that for after the probationary period? You take that to your grave. Non-negotiable.
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May 5, 2022 22:48
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You tell him the day after you end your probationary period.
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May 5, 2022 23:11
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It was entirely platonic which is mostly what makes it one of my favorite stupid stories in an otherwise extremely boring played wow for a decade life.
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May 5, 2022 23:26
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Even just an online gaming meetup...a corporate owner type hears that, their head will explode six different ways. If you want to immediate placement onto the shitlist by all means divulge.
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May 5, 2022 23:57
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You are negotiating at the next level with "I parlayed an MMORPG into having your daughter take photos of me in her bed, platonically". We cannot help you.
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May 6, 2022 00:21
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The ultimate trap card
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May 6, 2022 00:41
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Should see what she's up to and see if you can't create some new stories. Don't want to end up in a situation where you're playing the last card in your hand, after all.
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May 6, 2022 00:43
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The only winning mover is not to play !
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May 6, 2022 00:55
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there is honestly such a thing as a too powerful power play and you have found it
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May 6, 2022 01:46
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Reach out to her, don't divulge anything.
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May 6, 2022 04:56
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It’s the racecar bed that seals it for me
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May 6, 2022 05:07
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:there is honestly such a thing as a too powerful power play Even so, too powerful though he may be . . . there exists a level beyond this power. And then, potentially . . . a level beyond that. Asproigerosis, you know what you must do. Ascend.
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May 6, 2022 07:18
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What worked for me a few weeks ago was to set up a call with the hiring manager after receiving news that they would make an offer and open with “I want to talk about 3 things: compensation, X and Y”, where X and Y are things I would need to know about to do the job well. Contextually, I knew from outside sources their internal range for the role in advance and knew that their initial offer was at the top of their approved range. Then when as expected the manager said “let’s talk about comp first”, I used approximately this phrasing: “It’s light compared to my expectations. If you could raise it to N (my big win number) I could accept it right now. More than you offered now but less than N, I’d have to think about it. If there’s no movement I would have to think very hard about it and it might not work.” They came back close to N, which was fine (I would as it happens have said yes even with no uplift). I use this approach because it’s non-threatening and makes it low stakes for the manager to give me information, but it does sacrifice some strength of position for affability and friendliness so it’s not the right approach if you’re genuinely willing to walk away (eg if you have a competing offer) and are focused on extracting maximum value.
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May 6, 2022 07:40
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Never tell him, but after you accept the position call her up and say you sleep in a big bed with her dad's money
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May 6, 2022 17:21
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Anyone else getting an identical list of questions from everyone? 1. When are you available to start a new position? (Please specify a time frame) 2. What is the best phone numbers to contact you at? 3. If hired, will you provide evidence that you are legally authorized to work in the U.S ? 4. Are you willing to relocate? (Yes/No) Is relocation assistance required? (Yes/No) 5. What is your preferred location? 6. Are you willing to travel? If yes, what percentage of time? 7. What is your expected annual base salary? 8. Please send an updated word/PDF resume. I wasn't getting these in December of last year. They bury it in question 7, but as near as I can tell they are cutting hard on salary asks these days. You either name a number they can agree to first thing or radio silence. It is fine with me, I'm just interviewing to keep my chops up, and these jobs look terrible.
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May 8, 2022 15:22
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I think what's been happening since the pandemic is along these lines: 1. HR/Recruiting keeps getting to the offer stage only to get a big fat GTFO from the candidate when their offer is 50% short. This always happens sometimes but now it seems it's happening constantly. 2. HR/Recruiting tells management this and says "we might need to pay more." Management says "lol hell no." 3. HR/Recruiting hates wasting time vetting and interviewing candidates only to be ghosted at the offer stage, so they are starting to absolutely require the candidate to name their number to weed out everyone that wants paid market rate before the process even begins.
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May 8, 2022 18:45
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That’s okay because they’ll either get no candidates or objective idiots coming through the pipeline.
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May 8, 2022 20:05
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Yeah. Management knows that and is fine with it. HR and recruiters just want to do the least work they can get away with. That's how you get to "name your number right now or GTFO." It's easier than ever to identify a bad company right off the bat thanks to that poo poo.
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May 8, 2022 20:15
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I've anecdotally heard a lot of stories about people accepting offers and then ghosting the company before Day 1 because they found an even better offer. Its a really great job market for workers these days!
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May 8, 2022 20:42
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Could use a little outside input on an offer in process. I applied for a federal govt job, 4 year term position. Made it through two rounds of interviews (over 200 applicants narrowed down to 8 for 3-4 positions). This is a career pivot for me, related to the work I've been doing but different enough that I'm a newcomer to the field Last week they dropped the news that I'm not a fit for the team, but they want to pull me for a six month contract to do a project with them. They're using an esoteric federal practice that allows them to borrow workers from other governmental agencies (I'm a municipal worker) for high need projects. I'll remain, on paper, employed at my current location, and my salary and benefits will be through the city but paid by the federals. I'd go back to my current city job at the end of the project. The project is interesting, it would open doors and help me network in a much larger/higher level pool than I typically have access to. I'm thrown off my the short term nature, but someone advised me that my first work in this field likely would be consulting so it's not a total shock. What do I need to be aware of going into conversations about this new offer today? Any direct questions I should ask?
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May 9, 2022 13:39
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You're not a fit but they are pulling you in anyway? I know federal government jobs like this are a little different*, so the experience and connections are worth a lot. I'd ask about what they are going to do with the other position. Sounds like they intend to fill it, just not with you, so I'd set that expectation that this probably isn't a try-out for that role. That said, getting your foot in the door in a new field can be worth the time spent. So yeah, I'd probably use this opportunity to grill them a bit about what opportunities may be around in 6 months, or what pathways might be open to you. This is now basically you interviewing them since you'd be officially staying in your current role regardless. *If this were private I'd tell you this is red flag territory unless you just really wanted to do that project specifically. But the federal government plays by different rules.
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May 9, 2022 14:58
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