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Ola posted:Not sure if this is the right thread, but I have a question, perhaps even need career advice, about a change of direction involving COBOL. Saw an ad today where a bank is recruiting COBOL devs. Clicked for a laugh, curious about the requirements and they were surprising. You don't need to be Gandalf, you don't even have to know COBOL, you'll learn it on the job and will obviously do other stuff as well as part of their modernization project. The bank is otherwise a reputable employer. It would be fun to get to know that old stuff and it would be cool to replace it or make it maintainable for a few decades more. i strongly suspect that this is one of those choose your destiny things. this job is probably doing boring poo poo on bad computers. your coworkers will be normal people with normal lives that revolve around their families and/or their hobbies. they will not spend every waking hour thinking about touching computers. you will not get any extravagant perks or pay, but you'll be paid well and will have a reasonable work/life balance. you will have good job security. lots of places have banks, so you'll probably be able to live in a second or third tier US city instead of being confined to a tech hub. the pay with respect to the area will be very good; it may or may not be enough to get a decent house, depending on local real estate nonsense. if that sounds awesome, then cool. if it sounds terrible, then also cool. i am talking out of my rear end and have never worked for a bank, but that's what i'd expect. if you are one of those Passionate About My Job people it's likely hell for you. if you just want a decent job that lets you cash checks, save up for your kid's college, and be comfortable it's probably a good gig.
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May 4, 2022 23:03
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Blinkz0rz posted:Yeah I had no idea what I was doing and leaned on advice from the absolute wrong person in terms of mentorship. It was a lovely situation for everyone but at least I know not to do that nonsense again lol What did you do? (I dont remember anything. When it comes to these forums I have the memory of a goldfish.)
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May 4, 2022 23:19
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Achmed Jones posted:i strongly suspect that this is one of those choose your destiny things. this job is probably doing boring poo poo on bad computers. your coworkers will be normal people with normal lives that revolve around their families and/or their hobbies. they will not spend every waking hour thinking about touching computers. you will not get any extravagant perks or pay, but you'll be paid well and will have a reasonable work/life balance. you will have good job security. lots of places have banks, so you'll probably be able to live in a second or third tier US city instead of being confined to a tech hub. the pay with respect to the area will be very good; it may or may not be enough to get a decent house, depending on local real estate nonsense. My first job in tech was at a place like this. All the developers had senior in their title, they all owned a lake house and a motorcycle, all arrived at 9 am and were out the door by 4:15 pretty much as you describe. At least half of them had some or all gray hair, at least half of them had been there for a decade or more, projects were measured in quarters to years Maybe next I'll go work for a bank I've got a toddler now that sounds pretty good
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May 4, 2022 23:30
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Hadlock posted:all arrived at 9 am
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May 5, 2022 00:17
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lifg posted:What did you do? I tried to split my time between management and dev work while we hired a senior or lead because the team I took over was myself, 2 SE1s, and a SE2. It was an extremely frustrating exercise in trying to be in too many places at once and my management chain wasnt supportive enough to make it work. I posted a couple of takes that were misinterpreted as applying to all teams rather than mine in particular which is where my red text came from. The whole situation sucked. Wouldnt recommend it tbh
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May 5, 2022 01:14
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Blinkz0rz posted:Yeah I had no idea what I was doing and leaned on advice from the absolute wrong person in terms of mentorship. It was a lovely situation for everyone but at least I know not to do that nonsense again lol the only thing the tech industry is worse at than supporting junior/intermediate engineers is supporting newbie managers
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May 5, 2022 01:32
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There is something about the beauty of these oldie forums where the history is preserved. This thread was started 8 years ago, seeing how people grow and learn and how mentality seem to evolve over time is something that I think will be forever lost in the new Social Media Web 3.0 Attention seeking metagame that is slowly becoming the norm everywhere. Regarding working at a bank, everything that was said in this page I've read is pretty much on point. I'm working in a bank now and have a kid. I would probably have been bored senseless if I was beginning my career but at this point in my life, it fits me. I'm pretty sure some teams are taking care of much more dynamic, modern and fast moving systems (Traders, AI, maybe Mobile and Quants) but they are probably the exception. As with every big companies, your experience will be dependant on your teammates and the solution(s) you are working on.
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May 5, 2022 01:46
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Banks now are a lot more tech savvy than they were five years ago, and during that time period they've gotten better about not being miserable places to work. You still have the potential of dealing with some absolutely toxic people, but as long as you're not close to the money the risk isn't all that high. Of course that means you don't get paid like you're close to the money, but honestly I'd regard that as a reasonable tradeoff. I think it's at least worth interviewing and talking to some people there.
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May 5, 2022 02:16
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AskYourself posted:There is something about the beauty of these oldie forums where the history is preserved. This thread was started 8 years ago, seeing how people grow and learn and how mentality seem to evolve over time is something that I think will be forever lost in the new Social Media Web 3.0 Attention seeking metagame that is slowly becoming the norm everywhere. Agreed. Its been interesting watching the career growth of posters here, or even going back and reading my own posts.
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May 5, 2022 02:49
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Blinkz0rz posted:I tried to split my time between management and dev work while we hired a senior or lead because the team I took over was myself, 2 SE1s, and a SE2. It was an extremely frustrating exercise in trying to be in too many places at once and my management chain wasnt supportive enough to make it work. I empathize immensely. I did the same thing my first and only time in management. I ended up being lead programmer and manager and architect. I didnt do well, but I feel it really sharpened my instincts. (Not everyone needs to have their instincts sharpened to recognize a poo poo situation, but I did and I know better now.)
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May 5, 2022 03:29
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Blinkz0rz posted:I tried to split my time between management and dev work Can confirm. As a new TLM the idea of a 50/50 split is lol. It's more like 70% manager, 50% dev and 20% team facilitator. Would not recommend to a happy IC.
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May 5, 2022 05:21
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Paolomania posted:It's more like 70% manager, 50% dev and 20% team facilitator. "Yup..." 
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May 5, 2022 05:31
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My previous TL position was supposed to be 50% dev 50% team coordination, but it ended up being 100% doing my useless manager's job instead. I think I may have written 100 or so lines of code in my last year there.
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May 5, 2022 05:32
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Paolomania posted:Can confirm. As a new TLM the idea of a 50/50 split is lol. It's more like 70% manager, 50% dev and 20% team facilitator. Would not recommend to a happy IC. Yeah that was my experience as well except add another 60% managing up when they made me director wait thats 200% now how can you maintain this pace ? You cant youre gonna burn.
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May 5, 2022 13:03
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I have to admit, I had myself to blame in part to be in that situation and Im sure its not always like that
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May 5, 2022 13:06
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Paolomania posted:Can confirm. As a new TLM the idea of a 50/50 split is lol. It's more like 70% manager, 50% dev and 20% team facilitator. Would not recommend to a happy IC. Yeah, it was exactly that without my management chain being ok with reduced velocity from my very junior team. Super sucks rear end to be set up for failure. One of the best decisions in my career was to not try to force things to work and burn myself out but to cut my losses and move to an IC leadership role that was more what I was looking for anyway. Turns out I didn't want to manage people so much as be a technical mentor and help folks grow their skills.
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May 5, 2022 14:03
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Is there a single anecdote anyone has where the split manager/ic role worked out well?
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May 5, 2022 14:41
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Yes. The story, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this production are fictitious. No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred.
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May 5, 2022 14:46
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I'm a line manager, technical lead for a team, and still sling code lmaooo I'll be looking for a new job once I move apartments It's not been too terrible since my boss actually is understanding of reduced IC output from me, but I'm growing tired of the context switching and the pay bump I got wasn't to my liking.
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May 5, 2022 14:49
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I'm a newish TL and I'm getting nudges like "you'd be a good manager" because I care about the team and enjoy mentoring people. But part of me is uncomfortable with the amount of authority I already have. I feel like becoming a manager immediately amplifies that and makes you into "The Man", and gently caress the man.
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May 5, 2022 17:00
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Illusive gently caress Man posted:I'm a newish TL and I'm getting nudges like "you'd be a good manager" because I care about the team and enjoy mentoring people. Front-line manager, you are not yet the Man. You are the Umbrella. Even Sr Mgr, you can be the really big Umbrella. It's not until you hit director that you become the Man. Also, the Man really just wants to help you out (and get you to write more code). The Men (board members, angels, fund managers), now they're really out to get you.
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May 5, 2022 18:40
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Managers don't find out about layoffs until they're told to let people go. That should tell you a lot about how important they are in the grand scheme of things Directors and more often, senior directors know about layoffs weeks if not months in advance, and FINRA rules typically only apply to director and above Manager is not The Man, you're just no longer making bricklayer money and the company has some incentive to protect and keep you (but only barely)
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May 5, 2022 18:52
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I moved from a director level position back to senior IC 6 months ago, and my only regret is that I didn't do it 4 years ago instead.
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May 5, 2022 19:44
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I left my last job as a TLM to be a Senior IC as well and oh my god I am so much happier.
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May 5, 2022 19:57
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I am yet another person that left a Team Lead position to go back to Senior IC, and it was a great move with no regrets. I have half a dozen colleagues that have done the same. I will admit that I was unprepared to be a manager and probably not very good at it, but I also quickly realized that I absolutely do not want to be managing people. I'd rather pursue the senior+ IC track. I like mentoring, teaching, and leading people/projects, but I absolutely hate being a formal manager and all that it entails. Taking a "promotion" from senior engineer to first wrung manager is a trap. There are always open opportunities to do it, and senior ICs get pressured into it all the time, because it is almost universally an overloaded and undersupported role.
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May 5, 2022 20:15
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A senior IC to SEM is a lateral move in a lot of places. I don't know how they convince people it's a better path upwards but they do.
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May 5, 2022 23:13
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Is that an American thing? At all the Canadian companies I worked at the equivalent of a manager was an architect, ICs of any kind (even senior and staff) were below management.
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May 5, 2022 23:21
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its not even an outside of figgieland thing
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May 5, 2022 23:34
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having "senior IC" and "tech lead" as a thing separate from management is a very tech-company thing. so it's pretty common among businesses that are or want to be tech companies, but outside of that it's really common for leadership to collapse into management even at tech companies, post-senior ICs (staff, sr staff, principal, etc) usually are leading teams and such. they might write features occasionally (much less occasionally as you go up), but it's a lot more likely that they write designs and apis and architecture diagrams and let junior/midlevel/senior-as-title ICs touch the actual code. at least with the teams/orgs/ladders i've interacted with, you're probably not gonna be a principal engineer that regularly writes code. a staff engineer might push out a few changes a week, but it prob won't be a majority of their time spent coding (they have a bunch of lEaDeRsHiP stuff to do) Achmed Jones fucked around with this message at 23:49 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 23:47
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I'm not in figgieland. "Not Figgieland" probably encompasses a wide spectrum of dumb things.
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May 5, 2022 23:48
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well it's more about whether they're a "tech company" and/or aspire to be one. oldjob was in the santa barbara area so not really figgieland, but they saw themselves as a tech company so tried very much to have management be a separate _thing_ from an IC they weren't very successful and it was basically impossible to be promoted from one grade of senior IC to the next grade with the title "senior" (yes lol there were two "steps" for the title "senior"), and similarly difficult to go from senior to staff etc. they're probably a lot better about that now, but idk
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May 5, 2022 23:52
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Achmed Jones posted:(yes lol there were two "steps" for the title "senior") This is entirely normal and standard in multiple well known and popularly used systems for HR management/job level compensation. Things like Radford. This is not limited to the tech industry.
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May 6, 2022 00:15
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EM is either for masochists who think they'll be able to better affect change within the organization as an EM, opportunists who falsely think it'll put them on the path to becoming an executive, or foolish senior engineers who are tricked into thinking they're being promoted.
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May 6, 2022 00:18
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that makes sense i guess, now i'm thinking of like government org charts where you have like a dozen grades and it wouldn't make sense to have a separate title for all of them
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May 6, 2022 00:18
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Achmed Jones posted:that makes sense i guess, now i'm thinking of like government org charts where you have like a dozen grades and it wouldn't make sense to have a separate title for all of them Not with that attitude
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May 6, 2022 04:31
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bi crimes posted:EM is either for masochists who think they'll be able to better affect change within the organization as an EM, opportunists who falsely think it'll put them on the path to becoming an executive, or foolish senior engineers who are tricked into thinking they're being promoted. What about all 3?
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May 6, 2022 15:47
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in that case im the active privy councillor
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May 6, 2022 17:15
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Prayin' to the Active Privy Councillor
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May 6, 2022 17:18
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https://twitter.com/ZoeSchiffer/status/1523017143939309568?s=20&t=hAiLbY22ro4BPJKyTdd8HA lol at companies dragging people back to the office - people are going to move en-masse to perma-remote friendly companies
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May 10, 2022 04:10
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our CTO just recently (last three weeks?) committed to "no return to office until at least jan 1 2024" really glad about that because that's the earliest I want to go look for another job right now
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May 10, 2022 04:24
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