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That Livingway line is a great lesson in how many people who are Serious About Lore are exceptionally uncritical about the in-universe sources of what they learn. See also: the people who take Emet-Selch at his word.
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May 11, 2022 12:57
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I mean I understand it, I just think it's stupid and makes the story worse. And this isn't even being on the Emet defense force, if anything him not being tempered makes him morally worse, but it also makes him so much more interesting as a character. Having A Giant Evil Crystal Made Him Do It is just loving boring.
Eimi fucked around with this message at 14:00 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 13:50
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Keep in mind also that tempering also has to contend with the "aetheric density" of the target. I believe Livingway also suggests that a fully-formed Ancient is harder to temper (probably 14 times harder, assuming linear scaling) than a Sundered. We see this demonstrated with the dragons, where yes Tiamat was tempered, but only partially since her aetheric density is so much higher than a mortal soul. Zodiark brings in the question of scale again, but the mechanics should still be similar. Actually, something I wondered about Tiamat was what affect the tempering was actually having on her (them? We're explicitly told dragons have a very different concept of gender from mortals). During the conversations, Tiamat always seemed reasonable and the bigger concern seemed that if Tiamat was placed face-to-face with the true Primal Bahamut if they could resist its influence. But otherwise Tiamat seemed in full control of their faculties. Is this correct?
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May 11, 2022 13:57
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Cleretic posted:That Livingway line is a great lesson in how many people who are Serious About Lore are exceptionally uncritical about the in-universe sources of what they learn. You need to actually back up 'this chatacter is wrong' on something besides gut feelings. There is no particular reason to doubt Livingway's statement, especially since the 'counterexample' is a single line of optional dialogue that doesn't actually contradict it anyway. It is kind of annoying that the primary flaw of the Loporrits is "they function with Ancients, not Sundered in mind' and people extrapolate that to 'they are dumb nobodies' The mistakes they make are due to size, fashion, food, etc because they design with Ancients in mind. Not because they are Always Wrong. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 14:40 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 14:31
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ImpAtom posted:You need to actually back up 'this chatacter is wrong' on something besides gut feelings. We're not saying Livingway is wrong, Livingway literally offers the possibility that Zodiark tempered the Convocation even though he was summoned properly, which matches what we were told. It also matches the literal actual mechanics of tempering as we understand them (manipulation of the aetheric soul of a person). A little tug from Zodiark doesn't need to be downplaying, it's still tempering by the very literal process of tempering. We also know that any primal could temper regardless of how they're summoned, because it is about aetheric manipulation. The direct statement is that the Ascians taught a version of primal summoning that intentionally does temper the summoners, as a way of keeping them summoning the Primal over and over again even if the original summoning is stopped. This is literally how the whole thing works, nobody is lying at all.
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May 11, 2022 14:44
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Lord_Magmar posted:We're not saying Livingway is wrong, Livingway literally offers the possibility that Zodiark tempered the Convocation even though he was summoned properly, which matches what we were told. It also matches the literal actual mechanics of tempering as we understand them (manipulation of the aetheric soul of a person). Tempering is a direct form of mind control. It is a *tremendous* shift to the plot if you are arguing Emet is mind controlled. The 'little tug' conveniently fixes that because it can explain why Emet can not be lying without removing his culpability for his actions Emet being mind controlled fuckin' ruins the story.
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May 11, 2022 14:47
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Livingway was also created by the person known to be handing out anti-tempering spells as a basic safety precaution. It would be quite natural for her to incorrectly assume other ancients would do the same.
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May 11, 2022 14:50
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e: Never mind, I'm not really being fair.
PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 15:13 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 14:51
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ImpAtom posted:Tempering is a direct form of mind control. It is a *tremendous* shift to the plot if you are arguing Emet is mind controlled. The 'little tug' conveniently fixes that because it can explain why Emet can not be lying without removing his culpability for his actions Tempering is not a direct form of mind control, Ga Bu is tempered and doesn't act at all mind controlled. Tiamat is tempered and doesn't act like that either. Tempering is a form of aetheric manipulation that aligns your soul with that of the Primal who tempers you, encouraging you to think the way they would think. For Zodiark's followers, who are dedicated to repairing the star anyway, it probably just reinforced their stance on using Zodiark to heal the star. The thing they built Zodiark for. It's literally just giving you a push in the direction of whatever the Primal wants. Note, Zodiark is not evil, his push is not driving the Ascians to do what they do. They're doing what they're doing because they want to do it, that it aligns with their likely tempered thoughts of (Zodiark is the solution to all our problems) isn't an issue. Emet is tempered the way Tiamat is tempered, it is not at all close to the level of tempering that most people undergo because of the relative aetheric capacity and the way that tempering works. Which is explicitly the same as Sin Eater aetheric transformations, to the point that extremely tempered people transform into monsters. The Convocation Stones literally discuss their thoughts shifting as they build Zodiark and Empower him. This isn't some attempt to change Emet into a mind-controlled puppet, it is an explanation of how the rules of Tempering actually work, based on details we ACTUALLY KNOW. Alisaie's pig undoes tempering because it undoes the aetheric manipulation. There is no mind control involved, it is simply a personality shift. That's why the Tempered feel loving awful afterwards, because they were doing things they thought were correct and just because their souls were touched and twisted and shifted via aether. At base level, if the convocation were being mind controlled by Zodiark, THEY WOULD NOT be doing what they try to do because Zodiark wants to save the star. The second sacrifice would not happen if the deal with tempering is actual mind control. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 14:55 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 14:52
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ImpAtom posted:You need to actually back up 'this chatacter is wrong' on something besides gut feelings. With both Livingway and Emet, it's not that they're immediately inadmissable information sources, it's that you have to remember how they speak and treat people. Agreed, they aren't Always Wrong, but you can't take them at their exact word, yet you see a lot of people doing so. With Livingway, it's that she understates basically everything; remember the 'teeny-tiny toy boat'. So while you can trust that she's correct about the overall direction of something, you basically have to assume that any time she refers to the size or severity of something, Emet is rather more complex, because while he's never outright lying, there's a lot of related filters that things go through before leaving his mouth. Everything he says is filtered through the racism/ableism he has towards sundered people, his constant willing twisting of the facts to fit his narrative, his related selective use of facts, his crippling grief and depression, his tempering, the fact he literally just doesn't have as much information as he thinks he does... it makes him especially complex as a source of information when we don't have corroborating sources, because while everything he says is in some way informative, it's also pretty much all in some way colored by at least one of these factors. None of this is 'Emet-Selch is evil' (believe me, if it was then I'd be pointing to the war crimes). It's 'Emet-Selch is a complex person who is rarely telling us straight facts, and also Livingway is a character from a dry British political comedy making jokes that are a little hard to read as such sometimes'. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:12 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 15:08
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That is exactly what tempering is. GA By was effectively comatose but was a huge risk. That is *why* Alisae wants to cure tempering. Tempering means people lose control. That is why the previous treatment was mass executions. The greater athletic density is why it doesn't work the same way on unsundered And you are forgetting that Zodiark wasn't driving Zodiark. Elidibus was and Elidibus was one of the primary architects of the rejoining stuff. If Fandaniel Zodiark tempered someone they wouldn't be acting for the good of the star.
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May 11, 2022 15:09
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ImpAtom posted:That is exactly what tempering is. GA By was effectively comatose but was a huge risk. That is *why* Alisae wants to cure tempering. The level of control loss matters, even with the modern primals there's differing amounts. Ga Bu is nearly comatose, but never once did he try to summon Titan again because Ga Bu's particular tempering is based on his traumatic emotions at the time. He summoned a version of Titan overwhelmed by grief and rage at the loss of his parents, and that's how Gabu remains, tempered by those emotions, barely functional because it's all just too much (but still Alisaie reaches through to him). Shiva uses the Ascian version of the summoning magic and doesn't temper her summoners at all, because the Ascian trick requires the primal to still want to temper (it's based on a desire to convert people to your faith) which Shiva/Ysayle does not want to do. The execution stuff is also based on a lack of understanding as to the nature of the tempered. I'm pretty sure anyone could temper someone if they knew what to do, Alisaie's pig basically works via reverse tempering (and Zenos works out how to Temper Shinryu). The idea that Zodiark accidentally, when summoned, misaligned the aether of his summoners isn't particularly wild. It is in fact supported by the text, both from their memories of the experience, from Emet-Selch directly saying as much, and additionally supported by Livingway stating that "a little tug" is possible with even original summoning magic when making primals of Zodiark's size. That Zodiark is also explcitly designed for the manipulation of Aether on a mass scale is just icing on the cake of why he might have done it just by being created. Primals also are not normal creation magic to begin with, the first primal was an accident Lahabrea caused when trying to create a Pheonix and a freshly passed on Ancient Soul got caught inside the creation giving it a soul of its own as an arcane being.
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May 11, 2022 15:16
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God this debate will never end even if we get word of God confirming or denying.
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May 11, 2022 15:20
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Shiva didn't temper because her host had The Echo. Same reason Zenos didn't because he had the fake Echo. If anything that makes it more clear that it is mind control.
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May 11, 2022 15:37
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ImpAtom posted:Shiva didn't temper because her host had The Echo. Same reason Zenos didn't because he had the fake Echo. If anything that makes it more clear that it is mind control. No because the Echo isn't perfect protection against tempering, which we know because you can still become a Voidsent or Sin Eater (notably the Sin Eater transformation was going to overwhelm the Blessing of Light, the actual tempering "immunity" effect that the WoL has). Ysayle could have tempered her followers as Shiva if she wanted, she did not want to, remember Ysayle has followers helping her do the Shiva summoning, it is not just herself and those followers do not have the Echo. It requires the Primal to twist the aether of the person. The Echo gives you very good resistance to this because the Echo is soul magic (quite literally, everything it does is related to the soul evidently as a memory of how the Ancients could do soul manipulation). The Blessing of Light (a simple traveller's ward made by Venat according to her) is protection against Aetheric Corruption. The thing we develop in Thavnair is basically the same thing, protection against Aetheric Manipulation by external/elemental forces. The way you protect against tempering is literally using things that shield your soul from aetheric manipulation, that is how it works. You cure it via undoing aetheric manipulation. It has nothing to do with mind control and everything to do with soul control. Importantly, the personality of the Primal is based on the summoners, and that personality is what is used when tempering. So Ga Bu, creates a Titan utterly rocked with grief with no interest in tempering others because it simply wants to lash out and deny the world that killed its "parents (actually Ga Bu's Parents)". Ga Bu isn't in danger of summoning anyone because his initial tempering isn't actually wanting to summon anything, it's to do with his parents being dead and having an emotional breakdown. The Ascian trick is it turns the summoners into devout followers who want to summon again, because they want to convert others to their faith. It's more brainwashing than mind control, and the actual factual mechanic of how it works is soul manipulation. So, Zodiark a giant aetheric manipulation god, created with 50% of all Ancients everywhere, accidentally manipulating the aether of its creators as it is made, is entirely reasonable and in fact what the text repeatedly says. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:56 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 15:52
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ImpAtom posted:Shiva didn't temper because her host had The Echo. Same reason Zenos didn't because he had the fake Echo. If anything that makes it more clear that it is mind control. Actually seeing Fandaniel posess Zodiark makes me feel the actual reason is that they didn't temper because the Core didn't want to! Like, Ysale becoming Shiva is similar to Zenos possessing Shinryu or Fandaniel possessing Zodiark, she's clearly the one in control. The other Primals are compelled to temper because the flaw in the ritual. Hell, maybe even Yotsuyu wasn't compelled to temper like the other 3. Granted, Shiva!Ryne is an outlier, but I guess it's because she lost control and Eden!Shiva overpowered her because Ice is the Lightest element.
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May 11, 2022 15:54
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Actually seeing Fandaniel posess Zodiark makes me feel the actual reason is that they didn't temper because the Core didn't want to! Like, Ysale becoming Shiva is similar to Zenos possessing Shinryu or Fandaniel possessing Zodiark, she's clearly the one in control. The other Primals are compelled to temper because the flaw in the ritual. Hell, maybe even Yotsuyu wasn't compelled to temper like the other 3. Yeah, Ryne's thing is because she tried to make an Ice Primal and instead accidentally became Eden Round 2 because of how close Ice is to Light (and also probably because we were thinking of how Ysayle was a follower of Hydaelyn and narratively are questioning Hydaelyn ourself at that point). Ryne's Light form is literally a version of Hydaelyn, and all of the Eden Primals are based on our memories filtered through her thoughts. Hence why we gently caress up Titan etc. our memories of them kinda suck. There's literally a Hydaelyn sundering kick in that fight. It's not subtle at all that we've created a hosed up Shiva/Hydaelyn combination that intends to finish what Eden started.
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May 11, 2022 15:58
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the easy handwave is to just assume that zodiark tempering amounts to "the best way to stop the final days is to speed up celestial aether currents by supplying zodiark with aether", and the whole rejoining plan was born entirely and purely from emet-selch's grief and trauma
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May 11, 2022 15:59
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It's not mind control per se, but there is a crucial step of fixing / deleting memories to cure a tempered individual. You do need to purge that fanaticism and zealotry, or even uncorrupted they will still slavishly desire to restore their primal.
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May 11, 2022 16:01
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My assumption has always been that Zodiark’s tempering is “we have to save everyone” and then that got filtered through the convocation in various ways that reflected their personality. Emet wants to save everyone (by freeing them from Zodiark while preserving Zodiark), Elidibus wants to save everyone (by repairing himself via rejoinings so he can manipulate the aether currents and save everyone, though his memory gently caress up doesn’t make that clear to him, Fandaniel wants to save everyone (by killing everyone).
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May 11, 2022 16:05
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a cartoon duck posted:the easy handwave is to just assume that zodiark tempering amounts to "the best way to stop the final days is to speed up celestial aether currents by supplying zodiark with aether", and the whole rejoining plan was born entirely and purely from emet-selch's grief and trauma Thank you, this is what I'm trying to say. Zodiark Tempering is literally just "Zodiark is the best solution to our problem" because the thing Tempering actually does to summoners is lock them into whatever mindset they created the Primal with in the first place, if it tempers them. Hence the Ascian trick is saying to make a Primal you must fervently desire to convert others to your religion/faith, because this creates a Primal who has a motivation to temper people as much as possible (to convert them to worshipping it). Notably, this isn't perfect, Garuda only tempers Ixal, Ramuh only tempers Sylphs, Shiva tempers nobody, Ifrit tempers everybody (and surprise, the faith/culture of the Amal'jaa canonically lets anyone become Amal'jaa if they prove themselves worthy), Leviathan only tempers people as a weapon against Limsa Lominsa (because the Sahagin summoned Leviathan as a weapon against Limsa Lominsa) and Titan tempers people to protect the Kobolds (because that's his motivation, protecting his children from others). The personality, and thoughts, of the primals are based on the thoughts and personalities of their original summoners at the time of summoning, the busted Ascian Method then tempers those summoners which keeps them stuck in that mindset of reaching for the primal as a solution. This is why when you un-temper the leader of the Kobolds he has a loving breakdown, his desire to summon Titan was the same the entire time and he couldn't even conceive of another path. That last bit is the likely tempering of the Convocation, an inability to consider any path but Zodiark as a solution to their problems. How they wield Zodiark, and what they choose to do from that point is all their own. As a further run-down, Alexander explicitly is uninterested in tempering (both because his core isn't interested in it, and because the Illuminati summoners only want willing followers). Thordan himself is not tempered, but the Knights likely are (in fact they're probably beyond tempered, the transformation implies they've reached sin eater/voidsent levels of aetheric manipulation/corruption). Bismark does not temper anyone but its summoners (because it has no will of its own it is just a beast), Ravana tempers everyone (because the species he's summoned by have a hive mind and so he wants everyone to be part of it). Susanoo seems uninterested in tempering (only partying), Shinryu is uninterested in Tempering (only raw destruction), Lakshmi is hugely into tempering (because her summoners want everyone to join them in their peaceful lifestyle instead of warring). Tsukuyomi is probably not interested in tempering, only endless torment. hopeandjoy posted:My assumption has always been that Zodiark’s tempering is “we have to save everyone” and then that got filtered through the convocation in various ways that reflected their personality. Emet wants to save everyone (by freeing them from Zodiark while preserving Zodiark), Elidibus wants to save everyone (by repairing himself via rejoinings so he can manipulate the aether currents and save everyone, though his memory gently caress up doesn’t make that clear to him, Fandaniel wants to save everyone (by killing everyone). Fandaniel isn't tempered at all by the time we fight him, Tempering of the Convocation didn't carry over post death (sundering and aetheric sea dunkings cure it just as well as pigs evidently). Lahabrea however, is going off his rocker because he probably only cares about saving very specific people (Igeyorhm, Ericthonius?) and is constantly working to make sure what happened on the Void/Thirteenth shard (which presumably caused a shard of Igeyorhm to be lost permanently) doesn't happen again.
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May 11, 2022 16:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:Thank you, this is what I'm trying to say. Zodiark Tempering is literally just "Zodiark is the best solution to our problem" This is entirely made up supposition made to support your other argument not a compelling argument based in actual narrative points.
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May 11, 2022 16:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:This is entirely made up supposition made to support your other argument not a compelling argument based in actual narrative points. It's pretty much how most tempering is described to work. The narrative says that when you summon a primal (by the flawed method the Ascians taught) you are tempered, this leads to you being stuck in the mindset you summoned the Primal in. Which is a thing we can directly observe. The narrative also says the Convocation were tempered when summoning/creating Zodiark. At the time their mindset is that Zodiark will solve our problems for us. Is it then shocking that it is highly likely the thing that being Tempered by Zodiark does is encourage them to view him as the solution of all problems. Which we know they do, because Venat apparently tried to debate them (and other summoners/followers of Zodiark) and it did not work, they couldn't see a solution besides Zodiark. So, maybe not literally, but it is highly likely given the facts that this is what happened. Sorry for using hyperbole and not necessarily being perfectly accurate about what I'm saying.
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May 11, 2022 16:13
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Lord_Magmar posted:Thordan himself is not tempered, but the Knights likely are (in fact they're probably beyond tempered, the transformation implies they've reached sin eater/voidsent levels of aetheric manipulation/corruption) I have a different take on the Knights - they can transform at will, like Shiva, and then turn back to the regular selves after defeated. The drowned and other transformed don't do that. Thordan and his knights as a whole probably have so much faith in eachother, plus that of Ishgard, that they're reaching that point. That they're all pretty zealous by design helps. Shinryu tries to immediately temper you and Zenos when you get to them on the roof though. And then that prompts Zenos's speech about the true nature of the echo in regards to tempering.
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May 11, 2022 16:16
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I have a different take on the Knights - they can transform at will, like Shiva, and then turn back to the regular selves after defeated. The drowned and other transformed don't do that. Thordan and his knights as a whole probably have so much faith in eachother, plus that of Ishgard, that they're reaching that point. That they're all pretty zealous by design helps. Does it, I thought it was still imprisoned at the time at minimum and wasn't doing much of anything. My memory of that scene maybe lovely though so I'm willing to accept I'm wrong here (and certainly, Ilberd would be very much in the opinion that converting people to his cause is a good thing). Also yeah fair point on the Knights, it was just reminding me of Garuda's daughters (which I think at this point we know are transformed Ixal) and some other examples of Primals with transformed followers. But the Knights and Thordan might be a single Primal with a similar origin to Shiva (Thordan clearly is interested in tempering people though, based on his actual plan).
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May 11, 2022 16:18
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Lord_Magmar posted:Does it, I thought it was still imprisoned at the time at minimum and wasn't doing much of anything. Yeah, it was in the Omega binds, but was still conscious, or whatever. Shinryu roars at you and the green tempering energy effect gets thrown out over you and Zenos.
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May 11, 2022 16:20
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Lord_Magmar posted:(and Zenos works out how to Temper Shinryu). No, he didn't. You keep asserting this, and it drives me nuts. We've seen Tempering happen on screen, multiple times. We saw it during our encounters with Ifrit, with Garuda, with Lakshmi, with Queen Gunhildr, and arguably with that Sin Eater that transformed Tesleen in Amh Araeng, and in every single instance, it was portrayed as the Primal projecting their aether outward to corrupt their target's aetheric balance. Zenos never does that, he merges himself into the Primal and takes over as its "heart" the way Fandaniel does with Zodiark on the moon in Endwalker. That's very pointedly not the same thing as Tempering!
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May 11, 2022 16:21
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah, it was in the Omega binds, but was still conscious, or whatever. Shinryu roars at you and the green tempering energy effect gets thrown out over you and Zenos. Neat, fair enough. Maybe it just wanted to be freed and would do whatever it would take but that does mean it is interested in Tempering and I was wrong. Which yeah, Ilberd summoned it so it probably has his will to destroy and convert people to his cause for more destruction. W.T. Fits posted:No, he didn't. You keep asserting this, and it drives me nuts. We've seen Tempering happen on screen, multiple times. We saw it during our encounters with Ifrit, with Garuda, with Lakshmi, with Queen Gunhildr, and arguably with that Sin Eater that transformed Tesleen in Amh Araeng, and in every single instance, it was portrayed as the Primal projecting their aether outward to corrupt their target's aetheric balance. Zenos never does that, he merges himself into the Primal and takes over as its "heart" the way Fandaniel does with Zodiark on the moon in Endwalker. That's very pointedly not the same thing as Tempering! Hmmm, an interesting point. I'm actually now watching the cutscene and Zenos has this to say. Zenos posted:I speak of the Echo, of course. Does it merely render you immune to eikonic influence? Or is it rather that your influence is far greater than theirs? Granted, these implications are of no moment to a savage, who thinks only of killing the beast before him... (talks about Baelsar's reports). I immediately saw the boundless potential of the Echo. I saw how it could be instrumental in binding an Eikon to one's will. (A bunch of his philosophy on life, and the you and I are one and the same). (Frees Shinryu, more philosophy, Shinryu tries to temper and fails). And before the Resonant, the gods shall be made to kneel. (Big glowy red energy flows out of Zenos and into Shinyru, Shinryu struggles with it as it is corrupted, Zenos fuses with it whilst this is happening) Results, sounds like he's pontificating on a form of tempering the Primal, which involves fusing with it to make sure it stays working for Zenos will. Fandaniel notably is replacing an existing heart, Zenos is forming a new one via himself. Notably, Zenos projects his aether outwards before fusing so. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 16:34 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 16:21
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The Ishgardian Role Quest seems to strongly imply they are tempered considerimg an attempt to resurrect Thordin creates a weird broken amalgamation of the Knights which are fanatically loyal to Thordin.Lord_Magmar posted:It's pretty much how most tempering is described to work. The narrative says that when you summon a primal (by the flawed method the Ascians taught) you are tempered, this leads to you being stuck in the mindset you summoned the Primal in. Which is a thing we can directly observe. The problem with this argument is again that it removes all agency from the Ancients. They didn't reject Venat because they were overwhelmed by despair and sadness, they did it because they were being controlled. It changes it from a genuine conflict of emotions to a worldwide version of 'kill all the tempered'
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May 11, 2022 16:23
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Word of God is that the Heaven's Ward were tempered. Only mildly so, in that they retained their own personalities and such, but Thordan tempered them. Which is the same kind of tempering applied to the Ancients, interestingly enough. It doesn't diminish their personal culpability entirely because they could very well have struggled against the 'tug', I imagine... but none of them had any reason to because they already figured that they were right. I'd speculated in Shadowbringers that Emet-Selch being tempered was some of the reason he was such a hopeful-but-pessimistic person RE: the value of sundered people, and it's not out of the question there's a bit of that happening... but Endwalker's word of god that no, Emet-Selch's just kind of a stubborn fucker does the legwork there. Edit to add: All of the Ancients weren't tempered, I imagine. The Convocation, though? They very likely were.
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May 11, 2022 16:28
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ImpAtom posted:The Ishgardian Role Quest seems to strongly imply they are tempered considerimg an attempt to resurrect Thordin creates a weird broken amalgamation of the Knights which are fanatically loyal to Thordin. Kill all the tempered was never correct, and grief and pain can cause people to get stuck in a bad mindset anyway. The fact that this one is also magically induced doesn't change the fact that outside the Convocation the majority of Ancients probably weren't Tempered (I'm merely musing on the possibility some might be). It's the thing where a story uses a magical version of a real phenomenon to become more fantastical. Like, killing all the tempered is always portrayed as wrong because it ignores whatever issue caused them to summon the Primal in the fist place, the Scions outright don't like that it is the solution the Eorzean Nations have chosen, and it probably made discovering what Tempering actually involves (aetheric corruption) way way harder. Tempering is not a process of control, at least not by default, and that matters for this discussion because the actual "action" of tempering is just aetheric corruption. The closest we get to an exploration of an Ancient level Aetheric being experiencing tempering is Tiamat. Tiamat outright states she is disgusted with herself, and the false Bahamut she created, her concern that Bahamut could control her is separate, but she willingly surrendered to the Allagans because of what she did instead of try to free Bahamut work with him or anything else. She has enough of her faculties that she chose self imprisonment over working with the monster she created in the image of her dead lover. That suggests to me that any tempering of the Ancients would be of a similar level and compulsion/mental process. Which means their decisions to keep fueling Zodiark with sacrifice is wholly their own. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 16:49 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 16:34
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Even if you take the most generous view, killing the tempered was more along the lines of executing suspected zombie-infected people than anything positive. It is notable that when you present the pigs to people, any resistance to the idea amounts to "OK, prove to me that it works before I go all in" followed by a spontaneous rendition of Alisaie's Famous Pig.
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May 11, 2022 17:00
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FeatherFloat posted:Word of God is that the Heaven's Ward were tempered. Only mildly so, in that they retained their own personalities and such, but Thordan tempered them. Do you know where this was stated?
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May 11, 2022 17:23
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DanielCross posted:I think a lot of people misunderstood that bit, because while yes, Livingway says that a "normal" Summoning doesn't "naturally" include tempering, she also mentions that something on the scale of Zodiark could, even without intending to, give "a little tug." People take that at face value, but they shouldn't, because it was said by Livingway, whose introductory scene has her go "Whelp, Zodark's dead, that sucks." and who during the credits goes, "Oh, you guys weren't crying because your friend died? Cool." Everything she says is an extreme understatement, and there's no reason to believe that "a little tug" is not the same, and that Zodiark did, in fact, temper the Ascians that summoned it. Especially in conjunction with the memory crystals we find during 5.3 MSQ, one of which is from an Ancient who actively describes that he was feeling himself being tempered. Also, Emet-Selch outright said he was Tempered in Shadowbringers. So, y'know, he's probably a good authority to trust on that.
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May 11, 2022 17:45
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:Also, Emet-Selch outright said he was Tempered in Shadowbringers. So, y'know, he's probably a good authority to trust on that. I mean, he's not a good authority to trust at all! That's the whole point.
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May 11, 2022 17:57
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The man who sees souls probably has a good idea of what his soul, and those of his twelve closest coworkers, looks like. I was initially skeptical about him being tempered initially. I found it an easy excuse he was telling himself, when he couldn't let go of his old world and his old life. That was pretty dashed when Halmarut's memories in the convocation stone talked about his soul being changed. Tempering means different things to different life, but in the end it's a corruption of the soul.
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May 11, 2022 18:02
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Ither posted:Do you know where this was stated?
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May 11, 2022 18:02
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, he's not a good authority to trust at all! That's the whole point. Emet-Selch does not outright lie to the party once during all of Shadowbringers, he makes misleading-but-still technically-true statements at worst, so this makes no sense as an assertion when coming to him saying he's tempered.
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May 11, 2022 18:04
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Lord_Magmar posted:Neat, fair enough. Maybe it just wanted to be freed and would do whatever it would take but that does mean it is interested in Tempering and I was wrong. Which yeah, Ilberd summoned it so it probably has his will to destroy and convert people to his cause for more destruction. Except that's only.true if you ignore literally what's happening on screen. He's not tempering Shinryu, he's not loving with its mind and personality to make it fanatical and faithful and obedient He's literally taking full control of it and putting his mind body and soul into the beast which.....isn't tempering based on any example or explanation of it. At most he's pulling an Ysayle Shiva deal but post summoning. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 18:30 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 18:05
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Lord_Magmar posted:Some could, Hythlodaeus notably cannot for example. There's a side-quest in Elpis that involves flowers that temper animals as a defense mechanism. That's one thing I hope we don't discover survived the Sundering.
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May 11, 2022 18:28
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