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I wonder what the changes to rail construction are going to be, it would be very nice if you could build them with regular construction yards as well as the tracklayers. Especially if you could use helicopters to deliver the stuff.
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May 9, 2022 21:20
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OwlFancier posted:I wonder what the changes to rail construction are going to be, it would be very nice if you could build them with regular construction yards as well as the tracklayers. Especially if you could use helicopters to deliver the stuff. Just make track layers ignore signals but also phase through everything. No I don't care how unrealistic it is, please just stop making me play signal jenga whenever I try to add to or upgrade a train line. edit: as soon as I wrote this I realized you meant "In regards to cosmonaut support and how that will work," but I stand by my statement nonetheless. The whole cosmonaut thing has also made me wish there was an advanced space industry chain. Launch rockets for money, or something.
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May 9, 2022 21:28
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Getting rail layers to work right is actually conceptually simple. *discretely deletes and adds signals back* You just need the same sort of detour ability as your surface roads. Once you get a loop going it's pretty fail safe. *rescues a stranded oil train caught behind a rail layer* They are just construction trucks on rails after all.
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May 9, 2022 21:40
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Log082 posted:The whole cosmonaut thing has also made me wish there was an advanced space industry chain. Launch rockets for money, or something. I was actually thinkiing you could probably mangle the game into a scifi setting quite easily, have exotic resources that are difficult to produce, use them to power extreme versions of the current things, like big power plants etc. You could even introduce tradeoffs or dangerous techs like a psychic beacon that makes everyone super loyal but also causes health problems. There's already a bit of tradeoff with the justice system, you can stave off a lot of crime by just having good public services, or you can build lots of prisons and cops and lock everyone up. zedprime posted:Getting rail layers to work right is actually conceptually simple. *discretely deletes and adds signals back* You just need the same sort of detour ability as your surface roads. Once you get a loop going it's pretty fail safe. *rescues a stranded oil train caught behind a rail layer* They are just construction trucks on rails after all. The big issue with construction trains is the yard will only dispatch one per section of track, you can't get it to queue up three trains in a siding to build the same section, so constructing far away from the yard is very slow as the dispatch rate of trains is very low.
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May 9, 2022 21:45
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OwlFancier posted:I was actually thinkiing you could probably mangle the game into a scifi setting quite easily, have exotic resources that are difficult to produce, use them to power extreme versions of the current things, like big power plants etc. You could even introduce tradeoffs or dangerous techs like a psychic beacon that makes everyone super loyal but also causes health problems. You can already have kludge a modern/near future aesthetic with mods. It'll never happen officially because it doesn't fit the time period vibe the devs re going for but I'd love to be able to slowly automate businesses and unlock information age and future tech. I guess it's because of how well W&R handles the resource and industry side of things, it makes what would be relatively silly upgrades in other games feel either cheaty or amazing, depending on how "earned" you think they are in a given game. For example, in my 1930s start, I'm about to build a modded in run of the river hydro plant at the low low cost of reasonable amounts of most resources and 3000(!) tons of concrete, and I am loving psyched. Low labor cost, no pollution, and no resource input for about 2/3rds the output of a coal plant? My power grid has never been looking healthier! It should finish just in time for the war years, too, which is good because I'm planning to be "ordered" to export as much steel and military vehicles as possible. Something similar with modern/future tech where you unlock the ability to build and install industrial robotics that cut labor (as well as some kind of social advancements to provide the newly unemployed something to do) would feel like a really great capstone to a game.
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May 9, 2022 22:23
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Yeah exactly, I would love an alt-future soviet scifi DLC or something, as you say the number of things that are modeled leaves space for some very interesting building designs. I have a hydro plant too and yeah, regular output that you can build near, incredibly valuable and would make a great centrepiece for a new settlement. You could introduce different workaround industrial processes too, things like "clean" steel where they use minimal coal, solar fueled water electrolyis to produce hydrogen fuel that requires constant refrigeration to minimise boiloff, pipe it around or use trucks depending on how you want to go about it, biofuel refining from crops, vertical farming, non polluting industries so you can really integrate your industry into your cities as time goes on. Even things like electrically drive heating or electrical storage options would be quite nice as time goes on. There is so much room in the game to simulate what would happen if you could change different elements of industry, from pollution to different resource needs to transport requirements. And each would have different benefits depending on the situation you're in. Perhaps we may see more options once they expand the research system. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:46 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 22:40
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Certainly a future setting is possible but given the popularity of mods going back to the 30’s adding building year-locks like vehicles and then making DLC content going back in the decades would be a real easy no-brainer. My biggest complaint in the 30’s start is just the lack of buildings of an era appropriate style. Just add era appropriate stuff with a way to modernize them. (Or even just make me demolish and rebuild.)
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May 9, 2022 23:30
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Backwards could be interesting too yeah, give more room for relics of earlier development that you yourself built. Though I admit I would probably want some technological step-changes, like people using horse logsitics which are in some ways better than motorization but in other ways worse, and as time goes on you want to transition more to motorization.
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May 9, 2022 23:45
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I'm about done with the autobuild for my island cosmonaut. It took a little bit extra - about 8 months of gametime - for me to get it "stable" enough that I felt like I could rely on only the ships for import and my various lines/distro centers. I may need to autobuild just a few more residential buildings, if only because I don't think I can spare almost *any* workers for construction. I basically have nothing in my coal mine right now, so I probably need to at least get that rolling a little bit more before I can let it go 'full' cosmonaut (with my normal "small road autobuild" exceptions.) Here's a smattering of pictures of the starter village, both at day and night.          
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May 10, 2022 06:56
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How do the ships know how to pathfind their way to the harbor? Is the jetty built above a thin strip of land?
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May 10, 2022 18:15
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Volmarias posted:How do the ships know how to pathfind their way to the harbor? Is the jetty built above a thin strip of land? They literally know not to drive through those breakwaters, I guess because they count as solid buildings. What's weird is that they absolutely *can* drive through them, they just actively choose not to! It's great, actually. I think the water system needs a pass at least for numbers - trying to pressurize homes to 3-5 bar (which I understand to be 'standard' pressure) doesn't seem plausible without a pump every 10 feet.
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May 10, 2022 18:18
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I've owned this game for at least a year or two now but each attempt to get into it was met with failure. The recent suggestion of "keep trying until brain broke" resonated with me and I actually managed to get a simple village started up. I am still working on my "starting build order" as I do like the idea of having a very minimal start to import things and then trying to build up while self-sufficient, so in terms of what is critical when I haven't yet got the right understanding. It's also a bit of a pain building industrial areas as I don't yet know what's needed when, but I am having fun! So far I've settled on an initial buy-build of: - gas station + distribution office dedicated to supplying fuel to the gas station and other fuel-storage-buildings (other distribution offices) - construction office with an open storage and warehouse, plus distribution office to import some building materials - shopping mall and pub in a little village-area with some apartments, plus another distribution office to import food/clothes/electronics - industrial area to dig up gravel and process it into cement and asphalt, but I think I may skip some of this in the future in favor of importing some of those supplies - bus station linking the residential area to the gravel plant. With 4 of the medium-sized brick apartments (~50 workers) and two buses, along with limiting the workers at each of the buildings, I managed to get a relatively stable village going. Plenty of room for improvement, and I'm not paying much attention to the peoples' needs yet, but it feels pretty satisfying to be "almost there" in terms of building my own stuff (with imported building supplies). I think next I will try skipping the quarry and initial processing in favor of importing some cement or whatever other aggregate needs to be imported to get concrete going. So, if anyone else is on the fence, persevere!
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May 11, 2022 09:31
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It’s such a shame that the “persevere” method seems to be the most effective. It’s definitely what I recommend I hooking people that want to play it but are confused, but it’s a horrible way in the grand scheme. I’m really hoping they can improve a lot of the new players experience. I’m glad you’re hooked! Here is my usual build order. I’m going to leave out a lot of detail about what to autobuild vs import generally, you can figure out what you want to do. -a working village (“working” depends on your difficulty settings.) Small, Total pop 1-3k. -Gravel. Get quarries and the processor and a storage going. Auto builds eat your lunch delivering gravel because you often need so much of it and it’s easy to source yourself. -construction industries: asphalt, cement, concrete. You’ll need to source coal and bitumen for awhile before you have those industries up. -Coal. Get a mine and processor going. (I only suggest this after the construction industries because I tend to want to build as much myself as possible, so I’ll let my labor work on everything after I autobuild construction industries. CoalxBrickxPower can all come before construction industries or be interchanged at random.) -Power: Once you provide your own coal, getting off imported power should be priority and you can slow your bleeding of import expense by exporting the plant’s excess capacity very easily. -Bricks: especially if you use mods with extra brick apartments, but in general you’ll use a heck of a lot of bricks. -Dealers choice! This is where things start to get open. You can focus on offsetting imports with a cash heavy industry (oil, liquor) or patch more holes in sustainability (food and boards are easy.) Usually once I have both a coal mine and a brick factory up and running, I’m also beginning to outgrow my starter town and new industries require more and more folks, so you might take a project to expand to a new area, which might beg for getting trains running, etc… That flow should kind of knock out a lot of the “cheap and easy” construction pieces to put you in a decent spot to tackle more complex things like a steel mill. That said, if your starting area is close to oil you can short circuit that and become a petrostate and have enough money to figure out your own designs while you import everything.
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May 11, 2022 14:18
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You can condense some of that down. Import distro office to a storage complex near the border with large vehicles + civic distro office for your starter ~2km plot with midsized to small vehicles; a lot of buildings simply can't take a full RTTN load of their resource, or barely can but you have to run them down to the very minimum--by splitting import distribution and civic distribution up you can run full loads every time while minimizing usage of the customs post's limited bays. You can run direct import-to-factory for big eaters without running into this issue. Later on when you're in multiple map grids and supply everything yourself, you can do a storage depot for each square fed and evened out between each other over rail, and repurpose the import DO for factory supply. And supplying fuel to every fuel-using building isn't necessarily optimal, since it's just used as a gas station exclusively for mechanisms stationed there. General prio is I'd guess fire stations with helicopter (which otherwise need to zigzag to an airport which you have to have!) > emergency services in general (which otherwise need to refuel during a call) >>> construction offices with slow mechanisms (which otherwise trundle to the gas station at a leisurely 15kph) >>>>>>>>> distro offices or construction offices that specialize in materials distribution. I split COs into 2 or 4, (staffing/highway)/(framing/engineering), and fuel the highway one while letting the others feed from the normal gas station. Doing this also saves you a lot of headache and heartache during the long groundworks phases big buildings have, since you can assign only the highway department and not have 200 dudes and ladies bussing in to lean on shovels and wait a month for 500 tons of asphalt to arrive, only an excavator or a bulldozer. (Or assign only the staffing office to a steel plant or TV station or something if you've misbalanced your residential vs. industrial growth and have unemployment problems; it's still a job even if you just cancel it once the industry you actually want goes up.) Petrostate/bauxite state also don't require labor, only electricity and fuel. You can plop one anywhere on the map you have deposits near a customs post and it will just silently produce rubles or dollars; eventually you can run your trunk line all the way out to it and just feed those resources in to more conveniently located processing plants or conversely send workers out on trains.
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May 11, 2022 16:09
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Mandoric posted:Petrostate/bauxite state also don't require labor, only electricity and fuel. You can plop one anywhere on the map you have deposits near a customs post and it will just silently produce rubles or dollars; eventually you can run your trunk line all the way out to it and just feed those resources in to more conveniently located processing plants or conversely send workers out on trains. Much like real life, if you have coastal/river access, ships are fantastic for transporting large amounts of bulk material. This is especially convenient for petrochem exports, whether crude oil or processed. I do recommend looking for modded storage tanks, though. There's a good mod with a tank farm that seems balanced in material and space costs that I like to use that should be easy to find.
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May 11, 2022 16:45
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Seconding river access, ships are very good as they are essentially an infinite bandwidth import/export system that has a more or less flat cost, because the river is the infrastructure, all you need is the dock and enough ships to move the goods, which will take longer the further from the border you are, but you can ship such huge volumes that it's mostly money limited. Also, if you have a dock especially and you're going the petrochemicals route, build a refinery when you can. It greatly improves the yield of your oil in terms of cash (and the fuel can be used by all your road and river vehicles, and your trains if you really want to though electric is generally more convenient) and a refinery can refine more oil than you could realistically hope to gather from any oilfield. So, what you can do with that extra capcity is when you ship out your fuel/bitumen, import oil on the return trip, as it uses the same cargo type. Then you can unload that into a holding tank and you will still make a profit on fuel/bitumen produced by refining bought oil. 1t of fuel alone is worth more than the 2t of oil needed to make it and the bitumen can be readily sold as well, and if you consider the cost of buying fuel to run vehicles, it's worth a little bit more in fact because it can be effectively "sold" at the purchase price through use, saving you that money. A fully operational refinery can produce a lot of money, and the more oil you can feed it domestically the greater the profit margin, but as long as you can throw workers into it, you should absolutely run an import>refine>export economy to keep it operating at capacity. Also when you have a massive supply of fuel, you can start using helicopter construction yards which are amazing. E: Another interesting option for if you have river access is a dry dock. The main appeal of these is they they produce no pollution, so you can shove one next to your coastal development and people will happily just walk over there and work, you can convert a lot of labour time into finished ships which you can sell for cash, needing only a few odd bits of refined goods (easily sourcable with a distro center) and a decent chunk of steel (also purchaseable but might need a dedicated distro center or something bigger, depending on what you're building) The only downside of the dry dock is that you have to manually tell it to sell ships it's finished and it can only hold one finished ship at a time, so if you forget and are building lots of small ships you can hang your production quite easily. You can just shy of double your money on imported steel by building ships out of it, though. E2: Oh also, someone was asking about wind farms, so:   I built one, I think this layout would be quite scaleable, but paradoxically it wants flat land, because otherwise you have to run the wires all over the loving place, as if that is not already hell to set up. It generates between 1 to 2 MW depending on wind strength, going by the transformer consumption at the other end, and that's all free power so it's not nothing, other than dealing with fire coverage, but it really isn't worth the effort of setting up, I don't think. Especially if you want to wait for it to be built, all those drat wires take forever. Though being a wind farm you could build it right near a settlement so that might accelerate it a bit. It's still a hell of a lot of trips for delivering tiny packets of components per stage. I dunno, combined with a baseload fueled station it can certainly offset your power consumption, run that 1-2MW into some heavy consumption parts of the city and it will certainly get used, or run it to the border and sell it I guess. Might try doing that and see how much I can get for it. But it requires so much cable drawing that I would rather just build a coal plant to save on wiring. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:50 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 21:49
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I bounced off of this game in 2020, but I was interested in some of the recent updates, also all of the spillover posting in the management thread. I read posts and watched some videos.Just setup my first construction industry, and now I'm watching my workers build a heating plant out of gathered/imported/processed resources. I think I'm hooked.
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May 13, 2022 01:34
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It endlessly tickles me that the game about building a socialist republic is only playable if you have a support group of other people who have already adopted it to help you through the inscrutable thougth patterns required to understand it. They made a communism simulator that can only be understood via a vanguard party, it's amazing.
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May 13, 2022 02:12
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OwlFancier posted:It endlessly tickles me that the game about building a socialist republic is only playable if you have a support group of other people who have already adopted it to help you through the inscrutable thougth patterns required to understand it. It is wild and awesome. The weird sudden influx of people who finally broke through is super endearing. I think maybe the game is just hitting a critical mass of various QOL sorts of things that it can finally grab people not willing to put up with what it used to be. (Distro offices seem to be a 'dark horse' of people discovering their mechanics and going "gently caress, this is so much easier than I thought.) That said, that was my path too, just earlier. I bought it at launch - I could see the potential. I loved it. it was weird, janky, but.. Ugh, just a little too... Weird. I randomly saw like a year or more later: "Oh what the hell, their next patch is adding PLANES!? And there's already BOATS?!" And I hit the same kind of, "Alright, let me fight through it" and now I have over a thousand hours. (Though since I've been a remote worker I tend to leave the game on from early AM to late at night and only play here or there, so.) Volmarias posted:How do the ships know how to pathfind their way to the harbor? Is the jetty built above a thin strip of land? It finally happened: Ships had to pass in the channel, and they did it expertly. It's so weird to me that the game weirdly handles this one situation you wouldn't expect it to so well when things like prioritized traffic circles still get constant stops and starts in them.  Also a bonus of my expanding first settlement. I'm getting close to 'breaking out' into some real big projects, but its been a really slow burn because I'm not importing more workers and I'm still desperately early in the flat parts of the exponential population growth curve. 
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May 13, 2022 05:26
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As dumb as it seems, the grid snap was huge for me, at least in getting from "stabilized foreign reserves ok that's enough for this save" to "if I just wait two years on rail construction I can be one resource closer to autarkhy, hmm let's lay out a new chome for the people turning 21 by then". SC2k brainworms run deep. The next resource run is even longer, I'm contemplating whether it might be quicker to run parallel temporary wooden track intersecting back in every km or so and having 4 or 8 rather than 2 constructor trainsets on the job. If only I could only ship crappy constructors on flatbed.
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May 13, 2022 06:12
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I was today years old when I learned, via random tooltip, that you can press T to mirror buildings.
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May 13, 2022 16:28
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Dang i was trying Complex Education and i just slid into a downward spiral of "not enough educated to do work" In Complex education do people gradually lose thier education level? I swear i tried to pump more experts to fill the school but they never went to teach there so no one got taught anything.
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May 13, 2022 16:35
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Not that I am aware, but you need a critical mass of experts and you need to prioritize a university ASAP to start producing your own. There are a lot of jobs that need experts and you will need to buy in a lot specially from the USSR to get yourself started. You can prioritize some housing for educated workers too, to help shuffle them into being near your universities.
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May 13, 2022 16:46
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I really need to dive back into this now that there is a grid system. I played a bit of it like a year ago with the intent to come back to it. Recently picked up another copy as a gift to my brother who loves city management games and following this thread is both inspiring and terrifying because my republics always end up looking like poop before I inevitably end up restarting.
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May 13, 2022 17:14
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The grid is nice though it has absolutely made me into a terrible gridbrain rather than before where I would follow the terrain more.
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May 13, 2022 17:22
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Yeah, the university handling is deceptive on a few levels. Only university-educated can do particular jobs, including teaching at university and teaching at primary school, so you'll want one far earlier than the physical size, almost requiring its own substation-radius, and existence of support buildings implies. There's a smaller, almost-cheaty УБ-1-49 in the recommended mods from earlier in the thread to accomplish this. However, the existence of the support buildings is not to make the university work faster, but to let you limit university admissions by having housing that will semiautomatically house only people with 1 < edu. level < 2 and that can be placed to be the only housing that can physically get to the university and study. If you have a centrally-located university, everyone will attend, which seems to be bad for advanced manufacturing as there's a separate "engineer" job type that seems to work by scaling the output of normal workers rather than directly contributing work, and that edu. level >= 2 agents will preferentially take. Which tanks output if there are say 100 people in the auto plant arguing over which ball bearings to use and only 10 actually bolting things together. E: Grid freed me in the opposite direction, now I can justify imprecise placements, even imprecise placements because I wasn't paying attention, as "just working with the terrain", "just adding an accent", or "because there isn't a precise grid alignment for the hex-around-substation meme I'm trying to force". Mandoric fucked around with this message at 17:53 on May 13, 2022 |
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May 13, 2022 17:51
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OwlFancier posted:I was today years old when I learned, via random tooltip, that you can press T to mirror buildings. this is a HUGE gamechanger. congrats.
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May 13, 2022 18:16
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Mandoric posted:Yeah, the university handling is deceptive on a few levels. I thought engineers were a separate job in a factory that needs skilled workers, but skiled workers can also do basic skill jobs? And there are fewer engineer jobs available. I always locate my universities centrally because I want as much of the population as possible to be educated. I'm currently running about 50/50 basic/high education and that's working out fine for me, the limiting factor is pure labour shortage rather than overeducation. If you're running into an issue where you're filling all the top jobs in a factory but none of the basic ones, that seems like a reason to throttle down the factory jobs total, which will close some of each, but the closed top workers will then need to take the basic roles. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:39 on May 13, 2022 |
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May 13, 2022 18:37
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I dropped a UB near the city center in initial non-buy buildout of my current run that's very dense (5.5k pop all in one 500m long-chord hex that still has room for more housing), and currently have 100% higher educated. Which is telling me that it's something I don't necessarily want to use in the future, like the cheater substations; early convenient access to higher education kind of obviated the intended pressure of being limited in skilled labor. The higher educated will of course settle for being workers if it's the only slot the building has, and eventually settle for being workers once there are a lot of engineers, even not necessarily capped engineers; my vehicle production line is currently at 160/60. But in the 1.5k to 3k pop band when education completed but I was still very shorthanded, there were a lot of times when it was more like 10/40, and production suffered if I wasn't microing the staff count. The bigger problem I had was with my primary school, which sometimes ended up 0/5 and would have been over capacity if crunched down to 3. I ended up manually assigning my newest housing, with my freshest 21-year-olds who hadn't quite finished their degree, to it. Once there were enough people, it evened out.
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May 13, 2022 19:09
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OwlFancier posted:I was today years old when I learned, via random tooltip, that you can press T to mirror buildings. gently caress me
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May 13, 2022 19:43
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I would suggest there that you might be overbuilding jobs, which is a consistent problem but basically you always want to have slightly more people than jobs. You can do this with the employment throttle on buildings that have a lot of jobs but that you need anyway, and later you can just build stuff as you need it and keep a reserve labour force of like 5%, which is still a lot of people. But yeah, I haven't run into that specific issue because I have always found it necessary to try to match jobs to population, because the game really doesn't like having more jobs than people, it doesn't really assign them intelligently and the best way to avoid that is to have more people than jobs. Otherwise the construction industry, the heating/electric, and other vital services all crash out before I have issues with education. You can probably avert that but it's a lot of effort and also you're spending money on buildings you can't use properly.
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May 13, 2022 19:46
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OwlFancier posted:I was today years old when I learned, via random tooltip, that you can press T to mirror buildings. Make this the new title of the thread
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May 13, 2022 19:46
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I'm sure they mentioned they were going to add it at some point but I will be damned if I can remember any documentation for this EXTREMELY USEFUL FEATURE THAT HELPS IMMENSEL|Y WITH FACTORY TETRIS
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May 13, 2022 19:48
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I remember a rumbling somewhere of “we are hoping to add mirrored stuff” but I never realized it was an actual feature that they stuck in.
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May 13, 2022 19:54
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Two things I love about this game as a planner: 1) it's the one game that I can think of that actually gets the player to think about spatial logic and why cities form where they do and 2) you can't actually min-max poo poo like other management games. Fantastic.
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May 13, 2022 19:58
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OwlFancier posted:I was today years old when I learned, via random tooltip, that you can press T to mirror buildings. This is real? What the gently caress. What the gently caress!
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May 13, 2022 19:59
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... I discovered the T a couple weeks ago. I thought I was uniquely stupid and you all knew 
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May 13, 2022 20:00
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This changes everything. gently caress you game.
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May 13, 2022 20:01
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:... I discovered the T a couple weeks ago. I thought I was uniquely stupid and you all knew I think it is literally undocumented other than the tooltip, and because I hadn't heard anything in the dev logs other than "we will look into adding it" I assumed it wasn't in yet. But no, game changing layout feature mentioned only in a random tooltip.
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May 13, 2022 20:28
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Going to hit every combination of keys until I find out what unlocks the space program tree.
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May 13, 2022 20:45
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