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Being openly against Nato would be a poison pill for any party now unless they have a huge core of voters against it. Like, V gives a tiny token protest right? The political class has decided already and opinion is against it because your average Leif thinks Russia has the resources to invade Stockholm any minute now thanks to media. There’s a zero percent chance they’d let anyone get on the way no, especially a referendum.
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May 15, 2022 13:33
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SplitSoul posted:Enhedslisten have now effectively laid to rest their opposition to both the EU and NATO. They think they can "change the EU from within" and are afraid of being "hunted wildly" if they maintain. Am I so out of touch? No, it’s the
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May 15, 2022 13:38
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Most annoying common rhetoric surrounding the nato debate online and among acquaintances is a view of NATO as some kind of insurance rather than a commitment. Say what you will about Calmfors but he as an NATO-proponent is honest about that part
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May 15, 2022 13:41
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Revelation 2-13 posted:Am I so out of touch? No, it’s the That a real Dragsted quote?
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May 15, 2022 15:17
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Ja nu blev alla tidningsredaktioner glada iallafall då de kan vurma sig med ”historiskt beslut” rubriker.
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May 15, 2022 16:25
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BigglesSWE posted:Ja nu blev alla tidningsredaktioner glada iallafall då de kan vurma sig med ”historiskt beslut” rubriker. You mean the decision that everyone know was going to happen for the last two months? Especially if you follow international press. Trust S to always take the path that will let them stay by the money coffers.
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May 15, 2022 16:32
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I didn’t understand the nuclear weapon part. Are we housing NATO nukes too?
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May 15, 2022 17:11
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Dirk Pitt posted:I didn’t understand the nuclear weapon part. Are we housing NATO nukes too? Socialdemokraternas partistyrelse har på sitt möte i dag den 15 maj 2022 beslutat att partiet ska verka för att Sverige ska ansöka om medlemskap i Nato. Socialdemokraterna ska därmed verka för att Sverige, om ansökan godkänns av Nato, uttalar unilaterala förbehåll mot utplacering av kärnvapen och permanenta baser på svenskt territorium.
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May 15, 2022 17:14
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Most NATO countries don't host nuclear weapons. I don't understand why so many people seem to think that's on the table.
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May 15, 2022 17:21
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Randarkman posted:Most NATO countries don't host nuclear weapons. I don't understand why so many people seem to think that's on the table. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty
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May 15, 2022 17:27
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And Sweden is saying they won't host missiles. Norway isn't hosting missiles (or permanent NATO military bases) and never did even before that treaty. It's not going to be forced on you.
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May 15, 2022 17:39
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I’m gonna guess there’s some military brass in NATO drooling over the prospect of a permanent airbase on Gotland at the very least.
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May 15, 2022 17:41
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BigglesSWE posted:I’m gonna guess there’s some military brass in NATO drooling over the prospect of a permanent airbase on Gotland at the very least. Well, no permanent bases seem to be a condition of the Swedish ascension at the moment.
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May 15, 2022 17:42
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Randarkman posted:Well, no permanent bases seem to be a condition of the Swedish ascension at the moment. A wild Erdogan appears! Seriously though, I don’t expect for a moment nukes would ever be brought up, but I fully expect some back and forth on some sort of presence on Gotland.
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May 15, 2022 17:48
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BigglesSWE posted:A wild Erdogan appears! The issues with permanent bases is that Sweden won't own the military infrastructure reserved by them. Sweden doesn't mind full NATO integration but it is going to have to take place on Swedish military bases.
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May 15, 2022 17:54
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In a surprising event Sweden sells Gotland to NATO.
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May 15, 2022 17:55
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Here is the countdown for Swedish politicians to realise that a permanent NATO base means a boost to the local economy and suddenly we support NATO bases due to regional politics. The nuclear weapons and permanent bases are non issues and the usual S pretend that they have reservations.
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May 15, 2022 18:17
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SplitSoul posted:Enhedslisten have now effectively laid to rest their opposition to both the EU and NATO. They think they can "change the EU from within" and are afraid of being "hunted wildly" if they maintain. It's also their position that they want to leave NATO and create some alternative nordic alliance (which has already gotten a "lol, no" from Sweden and Finland). And they want to do this while disarming, or at least not ratcheting up further military build-up. Just reading about it is as cringey as the British version of The Office. I've considered voting for them in the past, but I am going to be far more hesitant in the future.
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May 15, 2022 18:20
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Well gently caress. Silly me for thinking a decision of this magnitude would be put to a loving vote, but then they'd risk it being voted down, wouldn't they. Fuckers
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May 15, 2022 19:41
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McCloud posted:Well gently caress. Silly me for thinking a decision of this magnitude would be put to a loving vote, but then they'd risk it being voted down, wouldn't they. Fuckers Know your place citizen. You get to vote once every four years what more could you possibly want?
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May 15, 2022 19:50
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Remember, you can always trust NATO's commitments regarding nuclear weapons and their safety. [img-kalaallit_erfalasuat_crying_seal_emoji.gif]Inferior Third Season posted:No, they haven't. They changed their party platform from exiting EU being a "goal" to it being their "perspective". Simultaneously, a proposal saying that exiting the EU should be removed from their platform was voted down. They also voted that it would be better to exit today rather than tomorrow. If all this sounds like contradictory meaningless gibberish to you, you are correct. They can't seem to agree internally on what their new EU position actually entails, but working toward alternative alliances in either case has always been the policy. Watch the Deadline debate between Astrid Vang Hansen and Pelle Dragsted (11:13), the latter whose EU proposal got voted through with only minor modifications outlines his perception, favouring incrementalism in the interim.
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May 15, 2022 20:07
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We got to vote about Euro, which was....something?
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May 15, 2022 20:35
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McCloud posted:Well gently caress. Silly me for thinking a decision of this magnitude would be put to a loving vote, but then they'd risk it being voted down, wouldn't they. Fuckers It will be put to a vote, in parliament, the way it works in a representative democracy.
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May 15, 2022 20:36
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DekeThornton posted:It will be put to a vote, in parliament, the way it works in a representative democracy. Seems like a pretty bad system.
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May 15, 2022 20:39
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Cant wait to party at Kallis with american soldiers this summer! Poggers
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May 15, 2022 20:49
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Queerkallis once per month, followed by Troopkallis
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May 15, 2022 21:10
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McCloud posted:Well gently caress. Silly me for thinking a decision of this magnitude would be put to a loving vote, but then they'd risk it being voted down, wouldn't they. Fuckers Well, if S didn’t say yes to NATO, M had promised to apply if they won, which given public opinion meant an increased risk of losing the election and derailing the S election machine. There is a majority for it even without S. Remember that the political position of S is always correct, even if it turns 180 degrees.
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May 15, 2022 21:21
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DekeThornton posted:It will be put to a vote, in parliament, the way it works in a representative democracy.
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May 15, 2022 21:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'd argue that a parliamentary vote in a representative democracy can only be legitimate within that system if the topic of the vote was touched upon during the election. Sweden must have referenda every few *days*
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May 15, 2022 21:38
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BigglesSWE posted:We got to vote about Euro, which was....something? I was a snotty apolitical teen who didn't even get to vote and had no idea what either option could possibly entail, but I still remember seeing footage of Anders Fogh struggling to hold back tears when the result came in and understood on a visceral level that this was the good result.
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May 15, 2022 21:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'd argue that a parliamentary vote in a representative democracy can only be legitimate within that system if the topic of the vote was touched upon during the election. If NATO membership was not and has not been a part of the discussion in Sweden in ages, then the members of parliament can't represent the people on this topic. Moreover, the very fact that it is now being brought up by the politicians who formerly had no intention of doing so, indicates a shift in position among the political class - one that might or might not be representative of the people who voted for them in the first place. In much the same way as Swedish politicians deciding to vote on EU membership out of the blue wouldn't be legitimate either. Politicians end up voting on a lot of things that haven't been touched upon in an election all the time. That is part of living in an unpredictable world.
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May 15, 2022 21:53
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DekeThornton posted:Politicians end up voting on a lot of things that haven't been touched upon in an election all the time. That is part of living in an unpredictable world. Joining NATO is not a small decision and shouldn't just be joined into willy-nilly either way. It really sucks that they can just say "gently caress ya'll" and join NATO without even considering what the people want.
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May 15, 2022 22:02
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Kamrat posted:Joining NATO is not a small decision and shouldn't just be joined into willy-nilly either way. S, and SD for that matter, have considered what the people want, and have reached the conclusion that they don't want to go into an election where they are being seen as possibly against NATO membership, especially with Finland joining.
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May 15, 2022 22:09
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DekeThornton posted:S, and SD for that matter, have considered what the people want, and have reached the conclusion that they don't want to go into an election where they are being seen as possibly against NATO membership, especially with Finland joining. They don't have to if they promise to have a referendum after the election
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May 15, 2022 22:13
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They could always hold a referendum the same way they did for the nuclear issue where the only available answers to "Do you want nuclear power plants?" were "No" and "Hell no!"
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May 15, 2022 22:23
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Referendums are just a way for politicians to absolve themselves of responsibility. And the referendums themselves usually gets hijacked by a non issue. Brexit put a big dampener on the idea that referendums are good ideas. Or in another way, S is going to suffer in the autumn election if this was a bad idea. I don’t think they will.
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May 16, 2022 05:25
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BigglesSWE posted:A wild Erdogan appears! Turkey suddenly demanding permanent bases in Botkyrka and Angered.
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May 16, 2022 05:58
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DekeThornton posted:Politicians end up voting on a lot of things that haven't been touched upon in an election all the time. That is part of living in an unpredictable world. They can't do the same for NATO membership, especially if the politicians have changed tack. Cardiac posted:Referendums are just a way for politicians to absolve themselves of responsibility. That said, it's very politician-brain to decide that other politicians loving something up is proof the public can't be trusted and thus referenda are off the table. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 06:40 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 06:37
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I was a snotty apolitical teen who didn't even get to vote and had no idea what either option could possibly entail, but I still remember seeing footage of Anders Fogh struggling to hold back tears when the result came in and understood on a visceral level that this was the good result. The euro sucks poo poo. Biggest mistake Finland did this millennium.
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May 16, 2022 06:52
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His Divine Shadow posted:The euro sucks poo poo. Biggest mistake Finland did this millennium. Yeah, unless you are Germany and get to gently caress everyone else over for your benefit, the Euro is a really bad idea.
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May 16, 2022 07:01
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