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To be fair, Civ always felt like a board game where having individual units makes sense.
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May 14, 2022 02:05
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Baronjutter posted:I'm pretty negative when it comes to any expectations from Paradox, but for some reason I got a good feeling about V3. I've generally assumed the worst with a lot of their releases and been right, but I just got this weird vibe about V3 that it's going to somehow all come together. There will be bugs, but I think the core game design is really good. Compared to something like Stellaris where it's not just the countless longstanding fixable bugs they refuse to fix, but the core design is bad and it's a jumbled mess of disjointed attempts to fix the game over the years. They didn't quite know how to do a 4X, they didn't have a solid vision for the game, and they didn't really have a cohesive long term vision for how to fix or expand the game. I really do get a sense that V3 has a LOT more thought put into it, and it's building off the lessons of 2 previous games plus I'm reading a lot of design based on the failures of Stellaris, like how they're handling pops. yeah some friends of mine and i discussed this way back when, and part of the optimism around vicky 3 is really that it's the first game by pdx (at least in a long long time) where its design principles are all solid and good. sure the execution is up in the air still but there's reason to be optimistic
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May 14, 2022 05:12
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CrypticTriptych posted:A lot of space 4x games (Stellaris included) suffer greatly from having the unit of production/force be "one {building/pop/ship}", a very early game where each {building/pop/ship} matters, and then another 80% of the game where the individuals stop mattering. They then give you either no tools, or very bad ones, for managing your 100s of individuals. IMO they would benefit from having something closer to V3 where you set up a strategic military-industrial stance and then pour resources into the furnace. distant worlds does it with automation that actually works reasonably well. but its also singleplayer-only so there's probably less pressure to make sure everything is balanced on a razor's edge
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May 14, 2022 07:19
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CrypticTriptych posted:They still give you absolutely crap tools to manage an end-game empire, and that combines really poorly with the game often being a forgone conclusion by then. In the case of Civ 6 it's not so bad. End game is only bad when it's a foregone conclusion, because the game ending conditions are balanced in such a way that you may know you've won in the mod game. I like Amplitude approach more, but Civ still makes it so capturing a city or building a wonder or a unit in the endgame still feels important.
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May 14, 2022 08:42
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I've been thinking about a post-collapse mod set circa 2100. The goal will be vanilla V3 mechanics in a strange new world, with a smattering of modern-day technology. Timeline (work in progress; suggestions welcome) Reddit post Discord server
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May 14, 2022 11:21
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CrypticTriptych posted:A lot of space 4x games (Stellaris included) suffer greatly from having the unit of production/force be "one {building/pop/ship}", a very early game where each {building/pop/ship} matters, and then another 80% of the game where the individuals stop mattering. They then give you either no tools, or very bad ones, for managing your 100s of individuals. IMO they would benefit from having something closer to V3 where you set up a strategic military-industrial stance and then pour resources into the furnace. Stellar Monarch does a good job here. You can assign fleets to north, south, east or western borders for defense, or to attack. Fleets on attack will invade the worlds you select.
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May 14, 2022 13:42
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CrypticTriptych posted:A lot of space 4x games (Stellaris included) suffer greatly from having the unit of production/force be "one {building/pop/ship}", a very early game where each {building/pop/ship} matters, and then another 80% of the game where the individuals stop mattering. They then give you either no tools, or very bad ones, for managing your 100s of individuals. IMO they would benefit from having something closer to V3 where you set up a strategic military-industrial stance and then pour resources into the furnace. HOI4's division designer does this fairly well. You build your divisions who are identical to start, assign them to a general that actually matters and can automate the itty bitty bits of where each individual unit goes with battle plans, but you can micro-manage if you want. I don't know why Stellaris is worse in both ways, though it does take time to get your head around HOI4's model (unless you're smarter than me, which you probably are). I'm very glad V3 is dispensing with this entirely, really focuses the game to the econ sim rather than having to (or being able to) micro the army. Enjoy posted:I've been thinking about a post-collapse mod set circa 2100. This looks really cool!
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May 15, 2022 02:48
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Gaius Marius posted:I really just want to make the most hosed up society possible. I want only poor minority women to vote for rich white men who serve as CEO's of a company/state that holds massive amounts of slaves that all get a college education. I want mandatory 12 hour workdays supported by unions that double as secret police. I want worker run theocratic soviets lead by divinely appointed kings. I want a Chile that snakes from Santiago to Vladivostok without ever touching a landlocked province. Summerians were theocratic communists. I don't think it was especially hosed up for a Mesopotamian society 4-5k years ago though.
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May 15, 2022 02:59
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Fray posted:Presumably for a Fascist party to appear, you'd need powerful industrialist and petite bourgeois IGs to exist, and that requires a certain level of industrialization. Likewise for socialism you'd need industrial workers with sufficient political participation (which seems to be V3's version of Consciousness). At least that's how I'd imagine it working if the devs want to make it organic. I mean, that's the theory, but communist parties only took power in agricultural states. Russia was the most advanced one that they managed.
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May 15, 2022 03:04
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Charlz Guybon posted:I mean, that's the theory, but communist parties only took power in agricultural states. Russia was the most advanced one that they managed. Wouldn't in practice then is that Socialist theory pops up in like the UK or Germany but then spreads to industrializing/developing nations who don't have their poo poo together and its what gives the opening for those governments/colonial administrations to be overthrown?
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May 15, 2022 03:07
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Charlz Guybon posted:Summerians were theocratic communists. I don't think it was especially hosed up for a Mesopotamian society 4-5k years ago though. Didn't they have slaves? Nothing communist about that.
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May 15, 2022 03:09
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trapped mouse posted:Didn't they have slaves? Nothing communist about that. Ancient gulag precursor obviously.
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May 15, 2022 03:11
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A friend taught me to play V2 via some co op games. I have now struck out on my own - as Sardinia-Piedmont I've played maybe 15 years and all I've really done is build glass, wine, and liquor factories and stay at army cap to keep my mil score resting as high as possible. Capitalists have built me all my railroads and I've been able to afford to keep my forts and naval bases at max tech. Anything else I should be doing? All the Italian minors are allied to Austria; I'm allied to France but don't think we could win a war if I tried to conquer, say, Tuscany, so I've just been sitting tight.
AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 14:32 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 04:12
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:A friend taught me to play V2 via some co op games. I have now struck out on my own - as Sardinia-Piedmont I've played maybe 15 years and all I've really done is build glass, wine, and liquor factories and stay at army cap to keep my mom resting as high as possible. Capitalists have built me all my railroads and I've been able to afford to keep my forts and naval bases at max tech. Anything else I should be doing? All the Italian minors are allied to Austria; I'm allied to France but don't think we could win a war if I tried to conquer, say, Tuscany, so I've just been sitting tight. Usually a good idea is to try to get to Great Power status as soon as possible, usually by industrializing, doing small humiliation CB's on tiny enemies for easy prestige, invading and conquering Sokoto & company and the southern tip of Thailand with it's valuable rare metal provinces. This obviously only works on vanilla so if you have any mods on I don't have as much of an answer.
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May 15, 2022 13:23
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Koorisch posted:Usually a good idea is to try to get to Great Power status as soon as possible, usually by industrializing, doing small humiliation CB's on tiny enemies for easy prestige, invading and conquering Sokoto & company and the southern tip of Thailand with it's valuable rare metal provinces. Don't forget researching all the art!
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May 15, 2022 13:24
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Koorisch posted:Usually a good idea is to try to get to Great Power status as soon as possible, usually by industrializing, doing small humiliation CB's on tiny enemies for easy prestige, invading and conquering Sokoto & company and the southern tip of Thailand with it's valuable rare metal provinces. Friend Commuter posted:Don't forget researching all the art! edit: Oh hey, its my boy Garibaldi. I'm Italy now. Its 1874, I guess I have some re-organizing to do, then I'm going to punch Austria so hard, Hungary is going to pop out. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 14:59 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 14:36
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You need a very good reason not to start generate CB on Sokoto on day 1. I think Victoria 2 did a good job making invading European countries a risky endeavour that is often not worth it (though it lacks any kind of devastation mechanic, but I think Victoria 3 adds something like that) but like other games it's afraid to make an invasion across the ocean as hard as it should be.
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May 15, 2022 16:34
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ilitarist posted:You need a very good reason not to start generate CB on Sokoto on day 1.
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May 15, 2022 16:57
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ilitarist posted:You need a very good reason not to start generate CB on Sokoto on day 1. I'd say that while v2 does lack an explicit devestation mechanic, it does get simulated by pop growth cratering in occupied lands and the mass unemployment that also results, such that a place that was occupied for awhile in early game wars will still clearly show the scars when compared to the same province in a similar run without the occupation.
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May 15, 2022 17:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:Summerians were theocratic communists. I don't think it was especially hosed up for a Mesopotamian society 4-5k years ago though. um
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May 15, 2022 18:50
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:I'd say that while v2 does lack an explicit devestation mechanic, it does get simulated by pop growth cratering in occupied lands and the mass unemployment that also results, such that a place that was occupied for awhile in early game wars will still clearly show the scars when compared to the same province in a similar run without the occupation. A big thing in Vicky 2 is that factories in occupied territory can't operate, so you can absolutely annihilate a country's economy by just sitting on their biggest industrial territories for a while. It's a key element to the "greater Germany" strategy, to force Austria to demote to a secondary power so you can sphere them by occupying the entire country and just never offering peace while their industry score drops to zero.
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May 15, 2022 19:11
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Charlz Guybon posted:Summerians were theocratic communists. I don't think it was especially hosed up for a Mesopotamian society 4-5k years ago though. my man did not read the epic of gilgamesh
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May 15, 2022 19:18
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TwoQuestions posted:This looks really cool! Thanks, I've done a first pass on resources and economic buildings now https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aiRBvOzFDofuGpjQnmW4s_l83wTWccg9SqgZdMSPFA0/edit
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May 15, 2022 19:54
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Is that about not being especially hosed up by Bronze age Mesopotamian standards (an extremely low bar) or about theocratic communism? For the later, I'm sourcing that from this book, which I read last year. https://www.amazon.com/Babylon-Mesopotamia-Civilization-Paul-Kriwaczek/dp/1250054168
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May 16, 2022 06:21
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Enjoy posted:Thanks, I've done a first pass on resources and economic buildings now This is pretty cool. It's got my gears turning on what kinds of scenario you might be able to set up with the Victoria 3 system. Ideally, it'll be a good system for modeling an upheaval of the economic status quo, and I'm trying to think about what that might mean. This definitely doesn't seem like a match to the setting you're building, so don't take it as a suggestion (unless you really want to) If you have enough control over pop rules, it might be possible to do something interesting with transhumanism and digitization of consciousness. It'd create a new type of pop that has totally different needs. Possibly just electricity and maintenance parts, but much less than a flesh and blood human. And that could create a very weird situation where you have a nation that has a growing digital population that has full voting rights but wildly different priorities. You could end up with various levels of cooperation, or one may try to disenfranchise and/or enslave the other. The upside of digital sentience would be that for any work that doesn't require physical presence, the job could be done by someone who has rock-bottom living expenses. But that's also a huge downside in a similar way to automation in the industrial revolution. And this is just from noodling on it for 20 minutes. I'm really excited to see what kinds of crazy stuff that modders come up with!
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May 16, 2022 07:40
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Charlz Guybon posted:Is that about not being especially hosed up by Bronze age Mesopotamian standards (an extremely low bar) or about theocratic communism? Calling it communism seems anachronistic to me. It is putting todays political ideas into the far distant past. I don't think most historians refer to their society in that way.
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May 16, 2022 09:05
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Hryme posted:Calling it communism seems anachronistic to me. It is putting todays political ideas into the far distant past. I don't think most historians refer to their society in that way. Look, I've translated Marx's work from the original Sumerian and it's still relevant today.
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May 16, 2022 10:29
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Hryme posted:Calling it communism seems anachronistic to me. It is putting todays political ideas into the far distant past. I don't think most historians refer to their society in that way. I mean he’s not a historian so I think it’s fine to be anachronistic. Hell ancient Historians did it all the time they didn’t give a gently caress
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May 16, 2022 10:33
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Hryme posted:Calling it communism seems anachronistic to me. It is putting todays political ideas into the far distant past. I don't think most historians refer to their society in that way. Well, he doesn't call it communism per say, but he does call it a command economy and it was used to redistribute food, shelter, and general resources amongst the population.
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May 16, 2022 11:39
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Charlz Guybon posted:Well, he doesn't call it communism per say, but he does call it a command economy and it was used to redistribute food, shelter, and general resources amongst the population. https://strategiesforparents.com/pe...tin%20spelling.
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May 16, 2022 14:47
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Charlz Guybon posted:Well, he doesn't call it communism per say, but he does call it a command economy and it was used to redistribute food, shelter, and general resources amongst the population.
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May 16, 2022 15:57
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It's very hard for me to imagine a pre-modern state that has control over the populace compared to even the most liberal country nowadays. I imagine it's a very limited definition of control.
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May 16, 2022 16:06
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I hate ship designers and always use the default auto-builds.
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May 16, 2022 16:51
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Ship designers in a game like master of orion with detailed turn based combat make sense. A good chunk of the game focuses around these battles and by actually using the ships yourself in battle you get that complete and total feedback on the designs and can really feel the difference a good design makes and how situational they are. So many "4X" games decided to not have detail turn based combat, but still have this legacy idea of "you need a really detailed ship designer" and it never ends up good because the player isn't really getting to know their ship well enough to get the feedback they need. I hope some insane modders turn V3 into a space game some how to become what Stellaris should have been.
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May 16, 2022 17:09
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ilitarist posted:It's very hard for me to imagine a pre-modern state that has control over the populace compared to even the most liberal country nowadays. I imagine it's a very limited definition of control. I mean if you run all goods through a temple complex for deities that people deeply believe in, you can still get a decent amount of control between the cop/diety in your head and access to grain stores and whatnot.
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May 16, 2022 17:17
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ilitarist posted:It's very hard for me to imagine a pre-modern state that has control over the populace compared to even the most liberal country nowadays. I imagine it's a very limited definition of control. It's a way simpler economy, though. Like it's mostly agriculture + textiles and a handful of artisans, and there is a long history of restrictions affecting the bulk of population that are farmers.
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May 16, 2022 17:20
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Baronjutter posted:Ship designers in a game like master of orion with detailed turn based combat make sense. A good chunk of the game focuses around these battles and by actually using the ships yourself in battle you get that complete and total feedback on the designs and can really feel the difference a good design makes and how situational they are. So many "4X" games decided to not have detail turn based combat, but still have this legacy idea of "you need a really detailed ship designer" and it never ends up good because the player isn't really getting to know their ship well enough to get the feedback they need. What if some designer decided to go all-in on the ship designer as the main focus of the game, and made a game all about designing spaceships? The combat, economy, etc, stuff is all abstracted, and your score depends entirely on the ship designs your shipyard comes up with! Design ships, send them off, get rewarded for better designs that perform better and get access to stronger weapons and bigger hulls!!
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May 16, 2022 23:03
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DrSunshine posted:What if some designer decided to go all-in on the ship designer as the main focus of the game, and made a game all about designing spaceships? The combat, economy, etc, stuff is all abstracted, and your score depends entirely on the ship designs your shipyard comes up with! Design ships, send them off, get rewarded for better designs that perform better and get access to stronger weapons and bigger hulls!! This feels more like a zactronics game the anything else.
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May 16, 2022 23:09
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DrSunshine posted:What if some designer decided to go all-in on the ship designer as the main focus of the game, and made a game all about designing spaceships? The combat, economy, etc, stuff is all abstracted, and your score depends entirely on the ship designs your shipyard comes up with! Design ships, send them off, get rewarded for better designs that perform better and get access to stronger weapons and bigger hulls!! Oh boy do I have the game for you: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1542810/Sunshine_Heavy_Industries/
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May 17, 2022 00:00
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Isn't that just Rule the Waves
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May 17, 2022 00:35
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