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There are established multi splitter setups for up to 32x32. I used to be able to build the 8x8 from memory, but I no longer build factories in ways that need those. Anyways, the most critical measurement is the throughput from any 1 input to any 1 output, with all other inputs empty and all other outputs blocked. The next difficult is 2 to 2. And, of course you can build much simpler things now that we have priority splitters.
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May 16, 2022 16:00
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I have balancers, I'm looking for a tap/split-off that will draw evenly from all lanes without blocking any when the extra output belt is full.
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May 16, 2022 16:07
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Do balancers ever do anything? In other words, is it ever the case that, modulo ores running out, the ratio between the amount of science produced by a factory with balancers and the amount of science produced by that same factory without balancers does not approach 1 as time approaches infinity?
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May 16, 2022 16:15
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Belt balancing is mostly aesthetic, but slightly future proofing as your bus gets longer and you keep adding intermittent loads and don't want anything to not produce at max rate. But if you feed 8 blue belts into your bus you really should expect to have less than half that soon enough. If you have stuff that's a guaranteed fixed load, like green chips or engines, those should have dedicated belts.
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May 16, 2022 16:19
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Balancers are important for things like loading/unloading trains, because you don't want a waiting train with 3 empty wagons and one full one because the supply or demand is uneven. Spamming balancers everywhere just to make things look pretty or to hide supply problems is useless at best and can actively decrease performance because not all balancer designs are throughput unlimited. That means that even though a balancer has e.g. 8 inputs and 8 outputs and will perfectly balance the inputs across all outputs, it's possible that you can get less than 8 belts though it at once because of bottlenecks in the balancer itself. e: this might be useful: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/u7zv6d/balancer_book_update_spring_2022/ quote:Factorio-SAT is a program that generates compact layout for balancers. It is the biggest balancer innovation in years. Many people have attempted to create such a program, but no one has succeeded, until R_O_C_K_E_T came along. He accomplishes this by reducing the balancer layout problem to SAT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_satisfiability_problem) , then feed it to a SAT solver to get the solutions. Tamba fucked around with this message at 16:34 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 16:24
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It should also be noted that balancers are horrendous for game performance once you get to a certain scale. There are places where it's hard to avoid them but generally it's better to find other solutions to your problem.
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May 16, 2022 17:09
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8x8 blues are getting to the size where you really should be shifting from belt bus to a train + isolated logistic bot islands system
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May 16, 2022 17:13
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I do wish you could set logistics zones without having to physically separate the roboports.
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May 16, 2022 17:42
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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If your entire map isn't one enormous logistics zone are you even playing factorio?
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May 16, 2022 17:56
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I did that once and sent my bots into an infinite loop over the ocean because they only path in straight lines.
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May 16, 2022 21:19
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Not paving the ocean sounds like a you problem.
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May 16, 2022 21:21
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I started playing Factorio in multiplayer with an experienced friend and another new player last night. The experienced player let us bumble our way to some early automation with the burners whilst we mass produced electric drills, then they gave us a little crash course in creating what I assume is a starter bus. After a few hours we had what feels like a decent start to our factory with a lot of plans in place to expand and fully automate red and green research. Needless to say I started my own single player factory tonight. My baby base has cobbled together enough resources that the next time I play I'm going to try and piece together my own bus. Luckily I like spaghetti, so what's the worst that can happen?
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May 16, 2022 21:52
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I also usually do the one big logistics zone and have the exact same water based problems. For those who keep separate logistics zones, how do you link them? buffer chests in each zone linked by belts?
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May 16, 2022 22:26
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Phobeste posted:I also usually do the one big logistics zone and have the exact same water based problems. For those who keep separate logistics zones, how do you link them? buffer chests in each zone linked by belts? Either a requester/passive provider pairing linked by belt, or a train. I also tend to have it so I'll have one logistics bot network that covers the entirety of a single production chain. Like a train served chip production plant. Trains drop off everything needed for green to blue chips, bots and pipes do everything in the giant block, and then trains carry off three delicious flavors of circuits. Then I put a wall around the whole block with gates and railroad crossings.
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May 16, 2022 22:41
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And if it's for letting bots build stuff, you can make a building train instead of letting bots carry everything across the whole map. Bonus points if you also make a way to clean everything up and bring the leftover items back home once the bots are done building.
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May 16, 2022 22:56
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Taffer posted:It should also be noted that balancers are horrendous for game performance once you get to a certain scale. There are places where it's hard to avoid them but generally it's better to find other solutions to your problem. I've always hated balancers for some reason, and at some point in the distant past I became a filthy cheater and I just use merging chests with loaders instead (or sometimes warehouses instead of merging chests depending on what modpack I'm playing) of balancers pretty much everywhere. I actually have no idea if merged chests with loaders are better or worse for performance, but they sure make life easier and I don't have to keep referring to blueprints to plop down complicated balancer setups.
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May 17, 2022 00:08
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Does that properly balance? Nothing would enforce pull rates of the loaders are equal
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May 17, 2022 00:10
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load balancers are fun and cool, the moment you need to use one is the moment you know your factory is officially "somewhat large"
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May 17, 2022 00:11
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If you use warehouses and loaders you don't need to balance anything. Busses suck for anything but small quantity mixed production
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May 17, 2022 00:15
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 Here's 600spm bus-based. Everything sciency is vanilla, only mods are visual/QoL/extended researches:  Everything on the left is "small quantity mixed production" (aka the mall) but everything on the right is all science parts and packs. Smelters were originally onsite but later switched to remote, now the stations that used to drop off ores instead drop off plates, but there's no reason why those couldn't still be on site and going directly to the bus. Without the mall there, this could easily support 1kspm. Here's all the bus splits for red/green/military/blue science: 
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May 17, 2022 00:45
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necrotic posted:Does that properly balance? Nothing would enforce pull rates of the loaders are equal It's always seemed to work fine to me, but I'm not sure I have ever really cared about pull rates so much as output balancing which it does perfectly at least visually.
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May 17, 2022 02:00
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Phobeste posted:I also usually do the one big logistics zone and have the exact same water based problems. For those who keep separate logistics zones, how do you link them? buffer chests in each zone linked by belts? You don't link them. Bot zones should be of a size where any request can be met in a reasonable time to limit bot shortages and power use and flight time. A central mall where you produce stuff you need nearby your production of the more complex items and science, with everything else (circuits, plates, etc) produced in isolated modules that get brought in by train.
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May 17, 2022 05:04
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KillHour posted:Not only was that basically done already, someone figured out the absolute minimum amount of time it would take, assuming perfect play. There's also this, which was an amazing watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFC7ez1bgnQ
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May 17, 2022 08:37
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The Locator posted:It's always seemed to work fine to me, but I'm not sure I have ever really cared about pull rates so much as output balancing which it does perfectly at least visually. Neat. I guess enough stuff under the hood has changed, in the past you could easily have an unbalanced pull on the source belts if they weren’t able to keep entering the chest at full throughput, as well as the other way around.
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May 17, 2022 16:32
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necrotic posted:Neat. I guess enough stuff under the hood has changed, in the past you could easily have an unbalanced pull on the source belts if they weren’t able to keep entering the chest at full throughput, as well as the other way around. That may be true, but I am too lazy and dumb to figure out how to test whether pull-rate is balanced using warehouses (or merged chests) and loaders. In places where this might matter, like a train unloading station, I keep this from happening by making sure that no train is requested unless there is room in the warehouse (chest) for at least 1 entire trainload of material, preventing any possible issues caused by unequal pull-rates on the train unloading belts.
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May 17, 2022 16:42
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can someone help me?I feel like the solution to this is going to be something really obvious and dumb I have 3 oil pumps sending crude to 1 refinery sending oil to 3 plants making plastic. All of a sudden production seems to have dropped off. Everything seems to be fully electrically powered. The fuel in the pipes seems really low though.
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May 17, 2022 17:17
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Are you still on basic oil processing? Or did you switch to advanced?
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May 17, 2022 17:22
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Check the oil wells. They can run out, which means they only output a fraction of their initial value (but they will never go down to 0)
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May 17, 2022 17:23
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massive spider posted:can someone help me?I feel like the solution to this is going to be something really obvious and dumb Did you run out of oil? Not sure how it works currently, but in the old days, old fields steadily dropped their yield until a certain minimum threshold but still kept on pumping. Alternatively, you're not consuming enough of one of your refinery resources and your pipeline has stalled.
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May 17, 2022 17:23
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Tamba posted:(but they will never go down to 0) I understand why this happens, but I have always hated this feature. Just let me drain that thing dry so I can see it's stuck and disassemble the whole operation.
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May 17, 2022 17:26
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xzzy posted:I understand why this happens, but I have always hated this feature. Just let me drain that thing dry so I can see it's stuck and disassemble the whole operation. That seems like it would be pretty reasonable to mod, if such a mod doesn’t exist already. Given some initial rate of extraction, you can calculate how much oil you would get from it in the time it is would take to bring it to ~5% of its initial rate, and set that amount to the oil well’s total reserves. The extraction rate of these could either be kept constant, or get slower as it empties. Just not exponentially slower so it will actually empty.
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May 17, 2022 18:48
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I did that once while messing with pseudo-infinite resources (i.e. every tile of ore has a million ore in it or whatever). Turns out the default oil having 24,000% or whatever matters because the extraction rate is proportional to that vs 100%. Quantity-based oil deposits always harvest at 100% which is very slow. Conversely you can get absolutely comical amounts of ore by giving ore super high percentages instead of fixed quantities because mines scale the same way.
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May 17, 2022 18:53
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Oh Jesus, is that what’s happening? I did a basic rail system for my oil supply and noticed it was spending 99% of its time acting as an extra storage tank since my consumption rate was so low and refills were so fast. I was playing with railway options since I was thinking of branching it to supply an offshoot mini-factory I wanted to build elsewhere and noticed it was taking for-loving-ever to reload the train when I sent it back a little early. I wasn’t sure if that was a new problem or if it just always took ages to fill the oil field buffer tanks and I didn’t notice since time between trips was so long. I suppose I’m still building the railway with oil flow going the opposite of what I thought and then adding some logic so trains only visit the crap field once it builds up enough supply to fill a train’s worth. yook fucked around with this message at 19:07 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 18:56
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yook posted:Oh Jesus, is that what’s happening? I did a basic rail system for my oil supply and noticed it was spending 99% of its time acting as an extra storage tank since my consumption rate was so low and refills were so fast. I was playing with railway options since I was thinking of branching it to supply an offshoot mini-factory I wanted to build elsewhere and noticed it was taking for-loving-ever to reload the train when I sent it back a little early. I wasn’t sure if that was a new problem or if it just always took ages to fill the oil field buffer tanks and I didn’t notice since time between trips was so long. If the oil field is producing oil faster than you can use it, it should be safe to just set a couple trains on "wait until full". In general there's no harm in having trains wait at a loading station.
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May 17, 2022 19:15
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xzzy posted:I understand why this happens, but I have always hated this feature. Just let me drain that thing dry so I can see it's stuck and disassemble the whole operation. K2 does this, it's a huge improvement.
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May 17, 2022 19:51
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I always liked oilfields producing forever; remember mining productivity also affects them, and you can throw speed modules/beacons in/around them very lategame. Since they produce forever, the return on investment for modules/beacons just grows the longer you play. Most wells seem to bottom out around 2/sec; with 300% mining prod, 2x speed 3 modules and a conservative average of 2 beacons per pumpjack, one well can be putting out 24 oil/sec; a field of a dozen splotches will then fill a train in under 2 minutes, and that's with a fully depleted patch. Bigger, more remote patches will produce even more and have a higher floor. If the patch never drying up and being forever "in the way" bothers you, I guess you could just pave over it (or use ore eraser or a similar mod when they reach minimum production). That's actually one thing I wish Factorio would take from DSP, the ability to just concrete over resource patches you don't want to see.
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May 17, 2022 20:55
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Freaksaus posted:There's also this, which was an amazing watch Pffft, his mining stack is weak. This is what true efficiency looks like 
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May 17, 2022 21:26
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KillHour posted:Pffft, his mining stack is weak. This is what true efficiency looks like Dear lord
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May 17, 2022 21:42
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I don't know how I managed to get myself stranded. I got on the island, surely I can get back off again? Now waiting for construction bots to build a chain of roboports about 3km out from my main base so I can get rescued. e: Got out of this with a spare spidertron that I called over to set a logistic request for landfill, sent back to the main base, and then called it back. Finding out the hard way that you shouldn't flip a blueprint if it depends on inserter lane output behavior. 
Xerol fucked around with this message at 08:29 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 00:06
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| # ? May 26, 2024 03:32 |
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Taffer posted:You don't link them. Bot zones should be of a size where any request can be met in a reasonable time to limit bot shortages and power use and flight time. A central mall where you produce stuff you need nearby your production of the more complex items and science, with everything else (circuits, plates, etc) produced in isolated modules that get brought in by train. What do you for when you need bots to repair walls and turrets on the perimeter? This is the main reason why I set up one giant connected zone.
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May 23, 2022 16:45
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