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Tenasscity posted:Are the shitheads the cEDH players? I’m sure this is fine in your playgroup but in my playgroup I can’t think of anything more toxic than behaving this way and you would just straight up stop getting invited to game night. Is “sportsmanship” or “sportsmanlike behavior” not a factor in your playgroups? Looking at your cards and going “oh, well I would’ve won, smell ya later, LOSERS!” and just folding then & there seems like something you would do in the beginning of an 80’s movie was to establish who was the rear end in a top hat bad guy.
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May 16, 2022 12:20
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Do you quit when you start to win in other games? Good poker hand means you fold? Doing well in an online game means you pull the plug? Roll a few critical hits in an RPG so you just decide to kill your character? Get lucky draws in candy land so you just walk away? The questions here are a little exaggerated but I am actually curious if this is an EDH only behavior or if this is how you approach games in general.
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May 16, 2022 12:24
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 per the LGS owner of that “banlist” yesterday
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May 16, 2022 12:47
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The idea that casual and competitive players are playing different games should be drawn out even further. When you get to the point where an inherently competitive game (in the sense that it is players against each other vs a cooperative game) has people actively seeking to not win, it sounds like they would be better off with an entirely different game. If you want collaborative storytelling, play D&D or some RPG. If you want to build decks and team up with people, try the LotR card game or any other cooperative card game. Magic is not built to do that type of stuff. You can beat on the square peg to make it sort of fit into the round hole, but it is far from perfect and relies on everyone in the group 100% agreeing on the approach, intent, and "power level" which obviously doesn't work based on (a) the constant discussions about decks being too good/fast/reliable and (b) admissions from players who seek this style of play voluntarily removing themselves from a game when they can't even meet their self imposed restrictions.
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May 16, 2022 12:52
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Bust Rodd posted:
FWIW I was visiting a store many years ago and asked about commander, so they shared their points based achievement sheet with me that had a similar ban list and other oddities. I wrote the store off (because what this game really needs is another 4 pages of victory conditions, right?). I swung by again a few years later and it had two tables of people playing cedh. Then they took up a "lol virus isn't real" stance and I quit going. Truly a rollercoaster experience.
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May 16, 2022 12:55
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I just reject the idea of “casual” play completely. The rules of the game are that one player wins because the other players lost. That’s the game, those are the rules. Sitting down to play a game with other people but using your own rules that you make up in your head is called “cheating”. If you sit down to play EDH, you’re agreeing to the game, to trying to reduce your opponents life or library to zero, and to possibly losing that game. Anything outside of that is just being a spoilsport/bad sportsman/cheater IMO. Like Aranan said, just play a different game.
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May 16, 2022 12:55
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Bust Rodd posted:I just reject the idea of “casual” play completely. The format you want is called Canadian Highlander.
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May 16, 2022 13:42
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I don't think they're playing different games, per se, but playing in different leagues. You're always trying to win, but if someone took an F1 car to their local Sunday Cup race it'd be interesting and cool exactly once, if even once.
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May 16, 2022 13:54
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Canlander, while fun, is a wholly different experience than a 4 player cedh game, with a vastly different metagame and effective playstyle. Stop recommending it to cedh players as if that's the 'true' experience they want.
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May 16, 2022 13:56
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Magnetic North posted:The format you want is called Canadian Highlander. I like Commanders and I think a Point Buy system is really, really dumb, and honestly I know this isn’t a huge issue but a point buy system also leaves wiggle room for cheating that really chafes me
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May 16, 2022 13:56
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berenzen posted:Canlander, while fun, is a wholly different experience than a 4 player cedh game, with a vastly different metagame and effective playstyle. Stop recommending it to cedh players as if that's the 'true' experience they want.
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May 16, 2022 14:00
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Magnetic North posted:The format you want is called Canadian Highlander. No, it's really not, and I'm tired of that being thrown around. I want to play commander. I like commander. I like building a deck around the identity of a commander and playing 4 person games. I do not like to have to be ashamed of winning or wanting to win because some people are absolutely bereft of the ability to emotionally regulate but are, for some reason, rewarded for that behavior by the community. You do not get to decide who is and is not playing the format right. If I wanted to play Canadian Highlander, I'd play Canadian Highlander. But I don't, so I won't. Framboise fucked around with this message at 14:34 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 14:32
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Magnetic North posted:The format you want is called Canadian Highlander. No it isn't. I'd echo what others have said but basically canlander doesn't appeal to me.
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May 16, 2022 14:32
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Aranan posted:The idea that casual and competitive players are playing different games should be drawn out even further. When you get to the point where an inherently competitive game (in the sense that it is players against each other vs a cooperative game) has people actively seeking to not win, it sounds like they would be better off with an entirely different game. Yup. It's one thing to not build the super competitive decks, or work within budget constraints, or have a power level you and your group are comfortable with. And it's lovely to knowingly play a deck way above the known power level just to crush people. But when there are penalties for playing legal cards or taking legal game actions, or when you design your deck for any outcome other than "if I execute my game plan better than everyone else, I will probably win," you're not playing EDH or even Magic, you're using the cards to play something else and you cannot expect randos who walk into your store or who you meet at a convention to know and agree with the rules to your something else.
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May 16, 2022 14:43
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I will say that the current state of Historic Brawl on Arena is basically Duel Commander//French 1v1 and is probably my favorite format in M:tG at the moment. There’s cEDH power level cards and a huge diversity of commanders, decks, and playstyles. Maybe a little expensive to get into if you’ve been playing since Beta, and im sure, but it’s like the perfect middle ground between cEDH and 1v1 that’s perfect for jamming 10-15 games of commander in an hour or two
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May 16, 2022 14:44
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Bust Rodd posted:perfect for jamming 10-15 games of commander in an hour or two I'm a fan of high power level, but 4-5 minute games isn't what I'm really here for.
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May 16, 2022 14:46
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Toshimo posted:I'm a fan of high power level, but 4-5 minute games isn't what I'm really here for. At least online you wouldn't have to shuffle.
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May 16, 2022 15:11
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Bust Rodd posted:https://twitter.com/rose0fthorns/status/1525702479442513920?s=21&t=1P4HzENBzFr0CDRmumhN7A The card that confuses me the most is Mycosynth Lattice because it's really bad and doesn't do anything, and I can only guess why it's ended up there, because anything that'd enable shenanigans is already banned.
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May 16, 2022 15:24
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:The card that confuses me the most is Mycosynth Lattice because it's really bad and doesn't do anything, and I can only guess why it's ended up there, because anything that'd enable shenanigans is already banned. Karn doesn’t appear to be banned, or collector ouphe or stony silence. Those are hard locks.
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May 16, 2022 15:39
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:The card that confuses me the most is Mycosynth Lattice because it's really bad and doesn't do anything, and I can only guess why it's ended up there, because anything that'd enable shenanigans is already banned. People and their 0 interaction battlecruiser decks probably got tired of other people dropping Lattice + Darksteel Forge + Nevinyrral's Disk
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May 16, 2022 15:57
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Toshimo posted:I'm a fan of high power level, but 4-5 minute games isn't what I'm really here for. This was a slight exaggeration. In an average play session grinding out my 4-15 daily wins or quests or whatever I get a handful of decently 10-15 games, usually one really good grindy attrition match where it comes down to raw top deck strength, and a handful of non-games where one of you has the Thoughtseize/removal/removal/planeswalker opening and you just absolutely can’t do anything to stop them. Planeswalkers as Commanders is NOT BALANCED for a 1v1 format when most planeswalkers can just come down the turn after and kill your creature commander, but whatever, nothing’s perfect
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May 16, 2022 16:21
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Toshimo posted:I'm a fan of high power level, but 4-5 minute games isn't what I'm really here for. I've linked these before, but I do think they're a good representation of the kind of "dark side" that an extremely competitive mindset can succumb to. Here, we see an Inalla turn one win. This isn't a particularly difficult combo to set up via mulligan, and, while it requires a thorough mastery of the deck to achieve, it also really isn't any fun to play against. This is a deck for tournament play, where winning at all costs is the aim so one gets the prize. Without Force of Will or similar pitch spells, the game is over as it begins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec1dxkypVkc That is a fine mindset to have if victory is the goal. One wants the stakes, so one pursues them to the utmost. Similarly, though this is an Alpha Magic format game, this match between WotC founder Peter Adkinson and early Magic pro Brian Weissman is boring as hell by game three. Because of how finely tuned their decks are, the odds of a non-turn one win is close to zero. The game is determined by the rock/paper/scissors at the beginning of the match, and the actual play somewhat of a formality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96sukgjTZk4&t=217s Again, this is appropriate for a game with money/cards/prestige/whatever on the line. However, when a game is being played for no stakes, the mindset can be (not is, can be) different. Sometimes you don't want to execute a multistep turn one win, you instead want to play to see if you can make some dumb and unlikely win condition occur because it'll be fun to brag about the one time it worked. Sometimes you want to be the 90s Chicago Bulls, sometimes you want to be the Harlem Globetrotters. I have no answers on how to resolve this beyond the usual conversations and social awareness. Very few people want to watch Shaq's Lakers destroy a high school JV team, but similarly, not everyone wants to just play teaching games where they hold back against their opponents to keep things "fair".
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May 16, 2022 17:54
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Lol imagine playing a game for fun with mates, right? Only one person can enjoy themselves at a time let’s make 3 other people miserable as often as possible! The issue this banlist is trying to solve is power level mismatches. Sheldon wrote about something similar himself wrt a modular ban list. If we encourage people to cultivate their experiences in all other areas - social media, workplace culture, online gaming - why wouldn’t we encourage the same thing in Commander? “Sorry bro you’re just playing at a different level ima go find another table” is a perfect response to avoid stomps and feel-bads and if you can’t accept that someone doesn’t want to play with you the problem ain’t them, champ. It’s you.
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May 16, 2022 18:57
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I appreciate how vaguely worded that post is so there's no way to tell which side you're scolding. Almost as if self centered dicks exist at all levels of play. 🤔
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May 16, 2022 19:01
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Aranan posted:I appreciate how vaguely worded that post is so there's no way to tell which side you're scolding. Almost as if self centered dicks exist at all levels of play. 🤔 It’s almost like universal solutions exist but people don’t want to use them and would just rather complain
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May 16, 2022 19:02
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Balon posted:Lol imagine playing a game for fun with mates, right? Only one person can enjoy themselves at a time let’s make 3 other people miserable as often as possible! Sheldon's argument about modular banlists is absurd. It's very very possible to have a power-based modular sets of banlists, and he doesn't want to do it, and so he wrote an article that reveals how much he operates in bad faith. Instead, he wrote an article where you'd have to ban "all fast mana" instead of you know, the broken fast mana; like somehow in Sheldon's head Rite of Flame and Sol Ring are equivalently problematic cards. You very much could ban another 40 cards and say "with these cards banned, you're playing high power" and ban another 40 cards and that's medium power, and you can ban another 40 cards and go play yugioh instead. The RC is lazy and doesn't want to actually support the way people play EDH, instead, they just want to collect money from writing articles for affiliate card selling sites and chant about Rule 0.
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May 16, 2022 19:09
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Toph Bei Fong posted:I've linked these before, but I do think they're a good representation of the kind of "dark side" that an extremely competitive mindset can succumb to. Bust comes in here talking about taking psychic damage from that LGS ban list and here comes Toph to just body me by reminding me about that loving Inalla game. I am dead, posting from beyond the grave.
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May 16, 2022 19:11
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If you want to play cut throat games where winning is the only goal then go for it, there are countless formats for you to live that experience including cEDH. I enjoy that but I also enjoy the experience of a casual EDH game people take into account the experience their opponents have. When I was 15 I had no problem being the dick who loops extra turns or locks my opponents out of the game completely but now I find that sort of play embarrassing. It’s not too far off of being the sort of rear end in a top hat who poo poo stomps his little cousins in Super Smash every single game or the guy who gets into constantly min/max rules lawyer arguments in D&D. Aranan posted:I appreciate how vaguely worded that post is so there's no way to tell which side you're scolding. Almost as if self centered dicks exist at all levels of play. 🤔 Uh, it’s quite obvious who he’s scolding.
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May 16, 2022 19:12
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LeafHouse posted:If you want to play cut throat games where winning is the only goal then go for it, there are countless formats for you to live that experience including cEDH. I enjoy that but I also enjoy the experience of a casual EDH game people take into account the experience their opponents have. When I was 15 I had no problem being the dick who loops extra turns or locks my opponents out of the game completely but now I find that sort of play embarrassing. Winning shouldn't be the only goal, but it should be a goal. There's nothing wrong at all with not playing extra turn loops or not playing stax, those are absolutely valid choices to make about your play experience and the power level of the decks you play with. Where it becomes a problem is when you build a deck that at the end of the day simply does not play to win. Likewise, Sheldon Menery, who has never been right about anything in his career, saying "the right thing to do is to ban certain cards, but we're not going to ban them! You should ban them in your play group! And when new players show up and want to play with you, you can shame them for playing the game wrong!" doesn't actually help anything. It lets him feel like he's off the hook but it's one of the primary contributors to Commander steadily becoming more and more toxic over the years.
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May 16, 2022 19:26
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disaster pastor posted:Winning shouldn't be the only goal, but it should be a goal. There's nothing wrong at all with not playing extra turn loops or not playing stax, those are absolutely valid choices to make about your play experience and the power level of the decks you play with. Where it becomes a problem is when you build a deck that at the end of the day simply does not play to win. Is that part of the axiom that judges are bad at Magic? He was an L5 so he's just the absolute worst/wrong?
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May 16, 2022 19:30
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pseudanonymous posted:Sheldon's argument about modular banlists is absurd. It's very very possible to have a power-based modular sets of banlists, and he doesn't want to do it, and so he wrote an article that reveals how much he operates in bad faith. The format of Commander is a coding language, not a program. There’s no ‘one way’ to play it and that’s why the RC keeps things as loose as possible - to allow people to play the format however they want. The issue is that people try to fit square pegs into round holes. They feel that THEIR personal way to play commander is what EVERYONE wants and should accept. “We’re all playing commander just deal with it lol here’s a turn 3 infinite combo” or “dude it’s only turn 10 there’s still plenty of time left” are what’s wrong with the format. People don’t want to talk to each other, set expectations, and get consent about what FOUR PEOPLE want from the game. You shouldn’t be subjecting someone to your concept of fun. The RC can’t ban dozens of cards because that kills THOUSANDS of peoples play styles. It’s easier to give people a framework and the tools to find players within their agreed level of play. IMO the issue is that the RC won’t set the example of giving players the social tools they need to find games with players that are looking for the same experience, and that leads to bigger concerns than “ban this card plz”
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May 16, 2022 19:45
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Balon posted:The format of Commander is a coding language, not a program. There’s no ‘one way’ to play it and that’s why the RC keeps things as loose as possible - to allow people to play the format however they want. You're yelling at people who spent pages saying the same things you just said.
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May 16, 2022 19:52
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Toshimo posted:You're yelling at people who spent pages saying the same things you just said. I’m not yelling at anybody? I’m summarizing!
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May 16, 2022 19:53
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Unrelated to the current topic, LRR did their RoboRosewater Masters gameplay on Friday, and they teased that they also got the RoboRosewater Commander decks, so we can expect a RoboRosewater Commander night from them sometime in the future. You know, in case you wanted to see what real Commander looks like. 
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May 16, 2022 20:55
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It's not real commander if you're not playing with custom legendary creatures drawn in your likeness.
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May 16, 2022 21:20
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disaster pastor posted:Winning shouldn't be the only goal, but it should be a goal. There's nothing wrong at all with not playing extra turn loops or not playing stax, those are absolutely valid choices to make about your play experience and the power level of the decks you play with. Where it becomes a problem is when you build a deck that at the end of the day simply does not play to win. Once you sit down and shuffle up, whatever deck you picked, you're playing to win. That's it. Play your hand the best you can, and pick whatever line you think will get you the W at the end, you already did the "nice" part by building your deck and having a pregame conversation to figure out what everyone is going to play with.
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May 16, 2022 22:31
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Infinite Karma posted:Nobody asked me, but this is the way I think about it: when you sit down to build a deck, you have to consider power level, and that's the point at which you consider everyone's enjoyment and the social nature of the game. You might say you're not going to include Consult/Oracle in your 5-color deck just because you don't want to win that way. You might include Armageddon in your otherwise friendly combat-matters deck to close out a game when you're ahead. You can be as focused and cutthroat or janky as you want at this stage. Yeah this is exactly how I approach the game and it seems to work pretty well with the play groups I have run with. Then again I don't play with gigantic babies so
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May 17, 2022 00:20
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The Shortest Path posted:Yeah this is exactly how I approach the game and it seems to work pretty well with the play groups I have run with. Then again I don't play with gigantic babies so I imagine babies, even gigantic ones, would not have the fine motor control to shuffle their deck and obsessively flick through the cards in their hands.
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May 17, 2022 00:22
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Infinite Karma posted:Nobody asked me, but this is the way I think about it: when you sit down to build a deck, you have to consider power level, and that's the point at which you consider everyone's enjoyment and the social nature of the game. You might say you're not going to include Consult/Oracle in your 5-color deck just because you don't want to win that way. You might include Armageddon in your otherwise friendly combat-matters deck to close out a game when you're ahead. You can be as focused and cutthroat or janky as you want at this stage. Yes. Exactly. If you show up with Zndrsplt and Okaun but say you're Prodigal Sorcerer Tribal and you usually win with damage multiplying effects, I don't care. In fact, I hope you do, that sounds badass! If you show up with Zndrsplt and Okaun and say you're "a fun deck" and you don't have a win condition, you're just here for everyone to have fun, and you usually just play Warp World and Confusion in the Ranks and Scrambleverse until the board state is too complicated to keep track of and people decide the game is over, I'm not going to find that fun and I'm not going to want to play with you.
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May 17, 2022 00:49
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Batterypowered7 posted:It's not real commander if you're not playing with custom legendary creatures drawn in your likeness.  I think Maro did a pretty good job.
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