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I, for one, love that the Israel rhetorical defenses are so strong that my Rep gets away with just slamming primary challengers as anti-Semitic, even when that person is Jewish like Jen Perelman is lmao
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May 15, 2022 12:56
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https://twitter.com/facqberlin/status/1525835429475385346?t=ekKBmXbzDwsK6FBpIo2xYQ&s=19
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May 15, 2022 15:16
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 I only 'shopped the last line, the rest is sincere hasbara posted by the IDF spokesperson twitter account a few years back.
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May 15, 2022 22:11
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Nucleic Acids posted:And if you talk about this at all you get accused of antisemitism Yeah more or less. The real wild thing is that the whole hasbara apparatus directly benefits from actual antisemites, too. Normal people don't want anything to do with any goddamned Nazis, so if Nazis are allowed to dominate the anti-Israel rhetorical space, it will necessarily funnel those normal people back into pro-Israel positions. The incentive then becomes keeping actual antisemitic ideology in a prominent enough place that it will be the default point of reference to the public when it comes to criticizing Israel, but not a place so prominent that they're able to sabotage pro-Israel policy This of course leads to otherwise well-meaning people becoming very confused when they see someone like Bibi yukking it up with freaks like Trump and Orban who actively court antisemites in their own countries
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May 15, 2022 22:46
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The one really sloppy thing I see in discourse against the Israeli government and those who support is, is conflation of Jewish people, Israeli people, and the Israeli state and those who support it. Jews and Israelis are not the problem. There are many Jews and even Israelis, both Jewish and otherwise, who condemn the actions of the Israeli state and its current leadership. Maybe not enough of them for your liking, and maybe those Israelis are still benefitting too much from the apartheid state as it exists, but... let's make very clear, here: the state of Israel, specifically and exclusively, gets these protections people talk about. Jewish people in general? No protections. Israelis who condemn the actions of their own government? Oh, you better believe they don't get any protections. Every time you blame a Jewish person for the actions of the genocidal Israeli state, a hasbara gets its wings; the government of Israel gets one more piece of evidence to try to convince the foolish that criticism of Israel is equivalent to anti-Semitism. The Israeli state benefits hugely, in a rhetorical sense, from the conflation of the state of Israel with Judaism itself, and we who are critical of the state should be exceptionally careful not to help them in this direction.
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May 15, 2022 23:25
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PT6A posted:Jews are not the problem. Oh word?
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May 15, 2022 23:42
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PT6A posted:The one really sloppy thing I see in discourse against the Israeli government and those who support is, is conflation of Jewish people, Israeli people, and the Israeli state and those who support it. Where do you see this happening regularly exactly
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May 16, 2022 00:02
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PT6A posted:The one really sloppy thing I see in discourse against the Israeli government and those who support is, is conflation of Jewish people, Israeli people, and the Israeli state and those who support it. It's not just the Israeli state. There's plenty of independent Jewish-supremacy groups on the ground engaging in violence all on their own, even without the approval or explicit support of the Israeli state (though they usually have implicit support, such as a noted reluctance by the army to intervene against settlers). Vigilante attacks, group beatings, arson, and more.
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May 16, 2022 01:14
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Half the cracker settlers aren't even Jewish, so
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May 16, 2022 01:25
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the "palestinians" and the "israelis" are the same people. the people of "israel" are murdering their own brothers. it's as if we learnt nothing from any of it
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May 16, 2022 01:51
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Where do you see this happening regularly exactly Al-Saqr posted:The answer is that Israelis are loving barbaric animals When I read this I thought it was conflating Israeli people with the state but maybe I misinterpreted.
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May 16, 2022 02:09
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Lib and let die posted:I, for one, love that the Israel rhetorical defenses are so strong that my Rep gets away with just slamming primary challengers as anti-Semitic, even when that person is Jewish like Jen Perelman is lmao People accused Sanders of this too. Assuming the Israel = Jewish is anti-semitism, literally the classic duel loyalty canard.
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May 16, 2022 02:36
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FishBulbia posted:People accused Sanders of this too. My favorite part of the 2020 election was when Omar called AIPAC a group that traded money for influence, and everyone pulled a PT6A and tut tuted and then a week later Trump was asking why Jews weren't voting for him when he did so much for Israel.
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May 16, 2022 02:42
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Nakba Day, Toronto 2022.       
Mister Speaker fucked around with this message at 03:04 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 03:00
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nvrgrls posted:When I read this I thought it was conflating Israeli people with the state but maybe I misinterpreted. Fair I guess. I was more referring to the Israel = Judaism conflation than the Israeli state = Israeli people conflation, but I should have either filed down the post I was quoting to that part or been less flip Tbh though I don't actually think we should be conflating those two things, either. One group is a broad ethnoreligious group with no inherent connection to a brutal fascist state and the other are actual citizens of that fascist state who directly benefit from its brutality. You can still say the latter are entitled to more nuance or whatever but it's not at all the same thing as the nonexistant relationship between Israel and Jewish residents of other countries
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May 16, 2022 03:12
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So uh, what's up with the Iraq flag?
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May 16, 2022 04:10
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SlothfulCobra posted:So uh, what's up with the Iraq flag? Solidarity with Palestine.
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May 16, 2022 05:57
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McDonald's to leave Russia for good after 30 years https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61463876 There would never be this type of divestment from Israel. Often when a mass-scale boycott of Israel is discussed, it is often compared to the Kristallnacht. The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions group has been widely accused of antisemitism by both the Israeli government and its supporters. In the United States, boycotting Israel is illegal/restricted if your work has some connection to the American government.   Why is it illegal and antisemitic to boycott Israel for their crimes, but okay with Russia?
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May 16, 2022 14:28
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paul_soccer12 posted:Also my tax dollars go directly to support the zionist occupiers which makes it morally incumbent on me to oppose them since my country is a nominal democracy Israeli settlers are some of the most vile people alive.
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May 16, 2022 14:57
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Starpluck posted:[b] Not sure if serious but A. Ukraine's interests align with western Europe security and N.American cold war enmity. B. Scale, nature and rate of atrocities in Ukraine are more headline grabbing, comparable to WWII or Bosnia. C. Putin and Russia can be credibly compared to Hitler and Nazi expansion in scale and MO. Hitler and Nazis being the most well known and default Bad Guy ever in pop culture. D. Ukraine has an extremely effective, non-stop PR machine that goes all the way up to the president being a former (and current) actor. Eg. The Eurovision tie-in was amazing. Pretty people singing from the front. No sadness or whining, just plucky, attractive underdogs who need help to fight for Freedom. E. The overall scale of I/P is not big enough to affect a major brands image. An idiot in a hurry does not pay enough attention to know if there are Mcdonalds in I or P. D. History Channel still says Jews are pop culture victims that need protection. I/P is none of these things. No major power's interests align with Palestine, the atrocities are a regulated slow drip, Israel acts like Nazis toward P but is otherwise passable as a friendly democracy, and the P PR machine is abysmal, if they have one at all. Can't even sing along to the music in the P resistance videos, the tempo is so weird. Some of these points can't easily changed, but some of them can, and Ukraine is a good example. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 15:37
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https://twitter.com/hebh_jamal/status/1526061943089266690?s=21&t=GfkMyigEDbWm7ynE5fekrA bleak lol at the semi-official news organisation of the Israeli settler movement going 'here's why it's actually good that we murdered a journalist'.
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May 16, 2022 16:25
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Starpluck posted:Why is it illegal and antisemitic to boycott Israel for their crimes, but okay with Russia? Because there's no Jews left in Russia. Get with the pogram!
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May 16, 2022 18:14
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Starpluck posted:Why is it illegal and antisemitic to boycott Israel for their crimes, but okay with Russia? because if you ask Evangelicals, Jesus won't come back to earth unless there's a powerful Jewish state ruling in Jerusalem
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May 16, 2022 18:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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mahershalalhashbaz posted:the "palestinians" and the "israelis" are the same people. the people of "israel" are murdering their own brothers. it's as if we learnt nothing from any of it no, most israelis today are white european imports without a hint of levantine ancestry what you claim was true before the nakba but hasn't been the case for decades, especially after the fall of the soviet union when Israel imported as many cracker goys as possible to fight the demographics war against palestinians
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May 16, 2022 18:49
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Louis Theroux did a documentary about settlers and the guy that was leading him around was Australian and an old lady later on had a thick Scottish accent.
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May 16, 2022 18:54
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israeli settlers not being jewish is definitely one of the wilder things to come out of this thread
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May 16, 2022 19:14
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paul_soccer12 posted:no, most israelis today are white european imports without a hint of levantine ancestry
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May 16, 2022 23:22
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Aliyahs came in waves since the late 1800s. There werent millions but there were tens of thousands in each wave.
Madkal fucked around with this message at 11:21 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 23:27
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Nebalebadingdong posted:israeli settlers not being jewish is definitely one of the wilder things to come out of this thread Yeah I saw that and took a double take. Can I get a source in this?
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May 17, 2022 01:16
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HootTheOwl posted:Yeah I saw that and took a double take. Can I get a source in this? Well, yes and no: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel-1.10254835 I wouldn't say that they "aren't Jews" but I would say I find the, uh, sudden and purely spiritual desire to convert to Judaism and move to the West Bank more than a little suspect. That's different from a Jewish person from Australia or Scotland (with the accent to prove it!) deciding to move to a settlement in occupied territory. There's Americans and Canadians who do the same thing too, it doesn't mean they aren't Jewish. Both of those are different from the situation during and after the fall of the Soviet Union, where people with enough Jewish ancestry moved to Israel because it beats the gently caress out of living in the Soviet Union/Russia, despite not necessarily having any particular spiritual connection with Judaism as a religion. You can argue that's right, you can argue that's wrong, but Israeli law does provide for it to happen. I doubt those particular people are super eager to live in settlements in the Occupied Territories of Palestine to further Israel's geopolitical goals. Regardless of how you come to end up living in a settlement in the Occupied Territories of Palestine, provided you had a say in the matter at all, you're just a garbage person! Religion, personal history, place of birth, all those things, have gently caress all to do with it; you're just trash!
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May 17, 2022 01:41
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Generally the settlements are filled with ultra religious crazies, not to be confused with the ultra religious crazies who live in the cities.
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May 17, 2022 02:00
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paul_soccer12 posted:no, most israelis today are white european imports without a hint of levantine ancestry
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May 17, 2022 04:40
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PT6A posted:Well, yes and no: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel-1.10254835 It's utterly fascinating (though not in a good way) how, thanks to the Law of Return, Israel is becoming a magnet for right-wing extremists worldwide. In particular, the ultra-Orthodox hardline right-wingers are pretty terrifying. For example, the main subject of that article was inspired to convert to Judaism by an extremist Youtube rabbi who claims that most Holocaust victims weren't real Jews and that synagogue shootings are God's punishment for not being anti-gay enough. The guy's a virulently nasty piece of poo poo, and I wouldn't want to be in the same room as someone who found him inspirational. mahershalalhashbaz posted:i am not sure this is true There's no reasonable way to trace it back a thousand years. But if you confine it to just the last couple hundred years, the vast majority of Israeli's Jewish population are immigrants, as there were very few native-born Jews there. Even as early as 1931, when there were less than 200k Jews in the Mandate of Palestine, more than half were foreign-born, with the vast majority of them being from Europe. By the time the State of Israel was founded, nearly two-thirds of the population were foreign-born.
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May 17, 2022 05:10
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folks were brown as hell when i visited israel last but my perspective may be skewed from living in oregon
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May 17, 2022 05:25
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precious
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I don't know if some posters are just conflating Israelis with white Europeans or something but there are Sephardic Jews from North Africa, Ethiopian Jews, Iraqi Jews (as well as Jews from various other Arab nations as well as Iran), as well as native born Jews in Israel. There was a huge influx of European Jews into Israel, particularly in the 1900s for some reason, but those aren't the only Jewish people there.
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May 17, 2022 05:41
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Madkal posted:I don't know if some posters are just conflating Israelis with white Europeans or something but there are Sephardic Jews from North Africa, Ethiopian Jews, Iraqi Jews (as well as Jews from various other Arab nations as well as Iran), as well as native born Jews in Israel. There was a huge influx of European Jews into Israel, particularly in the 1900s for some reason, but those aren't the only Jewish people there. For some reason. Guess we'll never know why.
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May 17, 2022 06:16
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One of them mysteries. Anyway thread I know these are sensitive times but doing this whole jewish phrenological ethnology thing is just not a great look, roughly 40% of Israeli jews are of Mizrahi\Sephardic descent so even if you buy hook line and sinker into this whole pretty strange insistence that jews of european descent are khazars or I don't know what it's still weird to say that Israelis have nothing to do with the levant or the middle east or semitic appearances. It's just not a great look thread, and really when you think about it there's really no a very good reason to even make these claims, the crimes of the state of Israel are real and contemporary and actually have nothing to do with any of these historical narratives, in fact I'd argue that divorcing the "Current Israeli Story" from these laden historiographies is probably beneficial for western leftists who wish to make a liberal case against Israel, the sad stories of the exodus are immaterial to what Israel is doing RIGHT NOW.
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May 17, 2022 06:48
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Lazy_Liberal posted:folks were brown as hell when i visited israel last but my perspective may be skewed from living in oregon They're mostly immigrants too. In the aftermath of the Nakba and the various Arab-Israeli wars, much of the Jewish population of the Middle East and North Africa emigrated to Israel (not always by choice, though Israel heavily encouraged it regardless). Originally, the European immigrants were still the most populous, but higher birthrates have brought the Mizrahi population up to equal or higher than the Ashkenazi population, depending on which numbers you use. Still, even to this day, the European-origin Israeli Jews dominate Israel politically and economically.
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May 17, 2022 07:19
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If the blood quanta of the settlers are your angle of attack, I'm pretty sure you've lost the plot somewhere. Even setting aside the obvious, it also suggests you think the settlements would be less of an issue if they had the correct skin color/accent.
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May 17, 2022 08:29
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Well that is my daily dose of hosed up. Imma need a disappointment  smilie
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May 17, 2022 10:30
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