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His Divine Shadow posted:The euro sucks poo poo. Biggest mistake Finland did this millennium. Biggest mistake so far.
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May 16, 2022 09:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The issue with Brexit was that it was a referendum on something completely undefined, which made it easy to hijack. A referendum on joining NATO is a far more binary affair, with clear examples of what NATO membership entails from Sweden's neighbors. Well, so far the NATO discussion have touched upon permanent bases, nuclear-weapons and Turkey, which are basically non-issues that NATO opponents bring up as valid discussion points and not the straw man arguments they are. So a NATO referendum would be hijacked, yes. I mean, we sadly never got the 10k German gays invasion. Oh, and if you say that we should trust the public, let's have a referendum on immigration.
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May 16, 2022 11:48
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Cardiac posted:Oh, and if you say that we should trust the public, let's have a referendum on immigration. Clever. That certainly hasn't been addressed in any election. Edit: PM says Denmark will guarantee Swedish and Finnish safety in interim period. Good luck. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 16:05 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 12:40
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SplitSoul posted:Edit: PM says Denmark will guarantee Swedish and Finnish safety in interim period. Good luck. Our strategic beer reserves are nearly finished. We will not survive like this, please help
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May 16, 2022 16:55
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Cardiac posted:Well, so far the NATO discussion have touched upon permanent bases, nuclear-weapons and Turkey, which are basically non-issues that NATO opponents bring up as valid discussion points and not the straw man arguments they are. So a NATO referendum would be hijacked, yes. I mean, we sadly never got the 10k German gays invasion. Should Sweden seek membership of NATO? Yes/No If Sweden becomes a member of NATO, should it allow the permanent military bases staffed by non-Swedish militaries? Yes/No If Sweden becomes a member of NATO, should it allow nuclear powers within NATO to station nuclear weapons on Swedish soil? Yes/No This is basically the exact way they should have handled Brexit, making the vote not just on Brexit, but also what Brexit means to people, except it's much easier to write succinct options in a referendum on NATO. There's no need to add a bunch of tradeoffs for any of the options, because you're not going to be choosing between nuclear weapons and being able to retire in Spain, or no nuclear weapons and losing your ability to use your driver's license in other NATO states.
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May 16, 2022 17:35
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Guys. We're not joining nato. Give it a rest https://www.dn.se/varlden/turkiet-sverige-och-finland-lamnar-inte-ut-33-terrorister/ Putin made a phonecall. Finland, we're on our own.
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May 16, 2022 18:28
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Guys. We're not joining nato. Give it a rest Aww shucks. The cruise missiles are hitting Skansen petting zoo as we speak.
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May 16, 2022 18:33
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Aww shucks. The cruise missiles are hitting Skansen petting zoo as we speak. Look, nobody is expecting the russians to just blow everything up now. I for one never wanted an alliance with turkey. NATO was just a necessity. I just hope Erdogan getting the F-35's is enough, let's not pretend this is about one journalist from a newspaper.
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May 16, 2022 18:44
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Look, nobody is expecting the russians to just blow everything up now. I for one never wanted an alliance with turkey. NATO was just a necessity. I just hope Erdogan getting the F-35's is enough, let's not pretend this is about one journalist from a newspaper. Hey I agree really, this is the time to join. But the squirm and beg show is mildly amusing nontheless.
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May 16, 2022 18:48
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Plan B is that Sweden and Finland get annexed by Norway as autonomous regions.
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May 16, 2022 18:50
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Look, nobody is expecting the russians to just blow everything up now. I for one never wanted an alliance with turkey. NATO was just a necessity. I just hope Erdogan getting the F-35's is enough, let's not pretend this is about one journalist from a newspaper. I mean, it's a paper alliance with Turkey, and Turkey would never honour that paper if tested. The US is going to force a solution to this bs soon enough, and it will be by some force on the turks.
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May 16, 2022 19:08
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 https://twitter.com/detljuvalivet/status/1526250539670982658?t=go-uTdGqRhLpjcjO1wQ3iQ&s=19
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May 16, 2022 19:17
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The people who have always wanted Sweden and Finland to join NATO surely don't give a poo poo about any kurds. If that's the only issue they will be sold out, like usual. Seems more likely to me that Turkish resistance is about the arms industry or either a favor for Putin or the repayment of one.
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May 16, 2022 19:56
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thotsky posted:The people who have always wanted Sweden and Finland to join NATO surely don't give a poo poo about any kurds. If that's the only issue they will be sold out, like usual. Seems more likely to me that Turkish resistance is about the arms industry or either a favor for Putin or the repayment of one. You think 60% of the Swedish public supporting NATO rn and S et al would be ok with your mentioned minority selling out the kurds? How much power do you think "The people who have always wanted Sweden and Finland to join NATO" have? Fake e: Who do you think they are?
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May 16, 2022 20:05
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It's not really clear to me what Erdogan could get out of this with regards to Kurds or PKK. If he blocks NATO memberships out of principle then he gets nothing. If he wants the countries to hand over the people he wants, then good luck getting that through courts regardless of who is in government. Finland and Sweden would have to completely abandon rule of law i.e. a constitutional and legislative coup for this to happen. So again, he gets nothing. Any pinky swear promises not to stand in Turkey's way in the future would hold no sway after the memberships were accepted, so even that would give Erdogan nothing. We could give him some money. Money is more than nothing.
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May 16, 2022 20:13
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:You think 60% of the Swedish public supporting NATO rn and S et al would be ok with your mentioned minority selling out the kurds? How much power do you think "The people who have always wanted Sweden and Finland to join NATO" have? Do they have to be okay with it? This is the time of pushing stuff through. Even if the fear of Putin was not enough to make them welcome it being swept under the rug I still think it is unlikely they would do more than complain a little. Most liberals and conservatives. I think the speed with which the Swedish libs have abandoned their long-standing position on the issue, with polling showing the populace barely in favor, just goes to show they were never really invested in that position.
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May 16, 2022 20:33
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BigglesSWE posted:We got to vote about Euro, which was....something? OTOH do you _really_ want the average dumbshit who's mainlining social media for their "research" and lacks all the information presumably available to our elected officials to make these sorts of decisions?
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May 16, 2022 20:57
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Yeah, when you think about it, Democracy is a fool's errant and your average sheep needs someone smart and handsome to decide for them.
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May 16, 2022 21:03
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Jack Trades posted:Yeah, when you think about it, Democracy is a fool's errant and your average sheep needs someone smart and handsome to decide for them. It's called "representative democracy" and is, in fact, democracy.
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May 16, 2022 21:08
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Direct Democracy, but only for good proposals.
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May 16, 2022 21:08
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Nenonen posted:It's not really clear to me what Erdogan could get out of this with regards to Kurds or PKK. Turkish Hubris on this is just obscene, especially on twitter right now. They have an economy smaller than Swizerland, purged half their airforce since the coup attempt and got kicked out of the F-35 programme. Their economy is in the shitter, inflation is at 70% for this year so far and their currency can't beat Swedish toilet paper at forex, never mind the Euro or SEK. Now they wanna block a unification of NATO near the arctic circle, an area which is going to be of much more value in the coming decades to the USA than any old strait in the mediterranean. They also have frosty relations with everyone except Qatar. The entire core of NATO shipped guns and money to the YPG because they were by far the most able group in fighting ISIS, and their "operation olive branch" was condemned across most of the alliance. I seriosuly doubt France, the US, the UK, and Germany are looking forward to being humiliated by Ankara after having spent no small amount of time bombarding media channels with how easy it would be for Sweden and Finland to join NATO. Man, social media has really hosed up politics. It is hard to imagine this being a thing when Erdogan didn't need to run on clickbait in the upcoming election. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 21:21 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 21:17
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Direct democracy, but only me and my friends get to vote
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May 16, 2022 21:18
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Clayton Bigsby posted:It's called "representative democracy" and is, in fact, democracy. And then your average dumbshit with social media addled brain goes and votes SD. Why risk it in the first place.
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May 16, 2022 21:20
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Turkish Hubris on this is just obscene, especially on twitter right now. First time? There are some Turkish Power Users when it comes to the internet and Twitter rn is no exception. This is the norm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301_(Turkish_Penal_Code) My birthday is shared with the Armenian Genocide day of remembrance and guess who won’t ever be able to forget that.
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May 16, 2022 21:34
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My favourite example of 'direct democracy' is that Switzerland held a referendum to let women to vote and 65.7% of men voted for universal suffrage at federal level. In 1971. The previous referendum on the same subject had been held in 1959 and then 67% voted against it. Swiss democracy is a joke.
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May 16, 2022 21:37
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On the plus side, Denmark can still invade Sweden then.
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May 16, 2022 22:04
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The only loss with be central Malmö, they'll never make it up the incline to Kirseberg
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May 16, 2022 22:07
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Anyone remember when Fogh became Secretary-General of NATO by banning a Kurdish TV station based out of Denmark during the whole "free speech" hubbub? Good times.Woodenlung posted:On the plus side, Denmark can still invade Sweden then. Unarmed fishermen, watch out. 
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May 17, 2022 00:08
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Turkish Hubris on this is just obscene, especially on twitter right now. How hard is it to kick a country out of nato?
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May 17, 2022 06:05
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His Divine Shadow posted:How hard is it to kick a country out of nato? There is no mechanism for it, so "very".
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May 17, 2022 06:30
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SplitSoul posted:Anyone remember when Fogh became Secretary-General of NATO by banning a Kurdish TV station based out of Denmark during the whole "free speech" hubbub? Good times. Hey hey hey. I was deployed to iraq and Afghanistan so AFR could be NATO sec general. I did my part 
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May 17, 2022 06:39
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Potrzebie posted:There is no mechanism for it, so "very".
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May 17, 2022 07:20
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I know the point of vetos is that everything has to be in agreement, but when you get to a certain size, it should require more than one party to block everyone else from progressing. There, I have fixed everything. You're welcome.
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May 17, 2022 08:44
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THE BAR posted:I know the point of vetos is that everything has to be in agreement, but when you get to a certain size, it should require more than one party to block everyone else from progressing. Counter-point: what if Europe decided to take NATO to a direction that USA doesn't agree with? Just the possibility of that happening could sour relations. USA would probably want a veto right then, or walk out.
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May 17, 2022 09:18
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Like all of Europe, unanimously?
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May 17, 2022 09:59
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Nenonen posted:Counter-point: what if Europe decided to take NATO to a direction that USA doesn't agree with? Just the possibility of that happening could sour relations. USA would probably want a veto right then, or walk out.
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May 17, 2022 10:12
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Sweden has been 100% supportive of everything Nato has done for the past 50 years, so joining up is just the final step to force an answer to the question "so you'll have our back if some poo poo goes down?"
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May 17, 2022 10:15
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His Divine Shadow posted:How hard is it to kick a country out of nato? Aren't they too important due to location and and so on, to even entertain that idea?
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May 17, 2022 10:22
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Sweden has been 100% supportive of everything Nato has done for the past 50 years, so joining up is just the final step to force an answer to the question "so you'll have our back if some poo poo goes down?" Except for that stupid phonetic alphabet we insist on keeping.
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May 17, 2022 10:33
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Woodenlung posted:Aren't they too important due to location and and so on, to even entertain that idea?
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May 17, 2022 10:49
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