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Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Black Beauty |
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2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
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4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
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117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
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11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
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54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
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Rob Filter posted:Two things: This is also important because there's absolutely zero chance that most countries adopt China-style COVID prevention policies. Maybe China's doing it right, and maybe they aren't, but for someone suggesting policy for COVID prevention in the US, that question is purely academic because neither of the political parties have any interest in adopting China-style COVID policies any time in the foreseeable future. Rob Filter notes things that might be at least possible in the short term in countries like the US, so for anybody interested in talking about actual realistic policies for most western countries, this is the type of stuff we should be talking about.
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May 19, 2022 08:05
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Rob Filter posted:Two things: I agree with much of this and think stuff like scrapping free PCR testing, failing to create special COVID isolation sick leave, and constantly pushing for a full-time return to the office is an example of "number go up" ideology in action, which of course does exist - it just isn't the driving cause behind either governments or people no longer considering it worthwhile to strive for COVID-zero.
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May 19, 2022 08:16
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A big flaming stink posted:do we talk about monkeypox here? yeah that's fine Worth noting that monkeypox is less contagious than COVID and easier to contact trace and isolate as symptoms are very visible (rash in particular). https://www.gov.uk/government/news/monkeypox-cases-confirmed-in-england-latest-updates quote:The virus spreads through close contact and UKHSA is advising individuals, particularly those who are gay, bisexual or MSM, to be alert to any unusual rashes or lesions on any part of their body, especially their genitalia, and to contact a sexual health service if they have concerns. The reason for special warning for MSM is that is where most of the cases have been identified in the UK.
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May 19, 2022 08:22
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Do they still do the bifurcated needle thing for vaccination or are we past that?
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May 19, 2022 08:36
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Stickman posted:How many Americans have suffered from Long COVID so far? GAO's best estimates are 7.7-23 million, with 1 million pushed out of work because of COVID sequelae. We'll see how it goes with recovery/new cases as we infect most of of America multiple times per year, but that is a lot of long COVID. Rob Filter posted:2. Where is the evidence that the risk of disability from COVID is low post vaccination? quote:Re: bolded, does anyone have any evidence that the risk is super super low? The only data based summary of long covid risks I've personally seen comes from this twitter thread, and it says 10%~, which is not low.
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May 19, 2022 10:58
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Jaxyon posted:The cost is measured in dollars, and the benefit is measured and dollars and lives. If dollars were so useless to life, why do aid agencies keep asking for more of it if? The cost of China's full strength lockdowns are definitely far more than some rich peoples bank accounts being less. Some of the all-in comments are treating covid as the only problem in the world and that things like Malaria (a disease that kills more children under five each and every year than covid did at its height) immunization development/trials didn't get put on hold because of covid lockdowns and travel restrictions. Happily, West Africa soon lost full lockdown as a methodology, international travel become possible and they were therefore able to run trials that show >75% efficacy just recently (previous best was like ~30% only recommended for broad use end of last year). Hopefully in a few years, it will be fully approved and production 100's of millions of doses saving hundreds of thousands of <5 year old children's lives every year can get happening none too soon. This number go up is children's lives but the hate for some old rich wanker having a big boat dominates thinking so much sometimes that people lose sight that lockdowns are a very big impact. Now that covid treatment understanding and vaccine situation has improved dramatically, that impact is increasingly outsize to the benefit. I.e. full strength lockdowns are increasingly unsustainable simply because they will kill and cause long term harm to more people than they will save.
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May 19, 2022 12:57
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Ridiculous to me that the CDC and FDA are still just sitting on vaccines for kids under 5, but I am glad to find that my 8 year old can get a booster, probably as early as tomorrow. Supposedly June will be the meeting to approve under 5 vaccines? Hopefully?
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May 19, 2022 13:58
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Lol, someone who *actually* lives in Shanghai and has to deal with what their COVID-zero policy entails makes a great effortpost and it goes completely ignored by the “China-style lockdowns here now” crowd
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May 19, 2022 14:13
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illcendiary posted:Lol, someone who *actually* lives in Shanghai and has to deal with what their COVID-zero policy entails makes a great effortpost and it goes completely ignored by the “China-style lockdowns here now” crowd I don't think you'll find many people going the "listen to real ______" route that is so popular on Twitter whenever a country is in the news. It was an interesting read. China's motivations are clearly based on long-term economic outlook and the labor pool's health.
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May 19, 2022 14:47
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Lager posted:Ridiculous to me that the CDC and FDA are still just sitting on vaccines for kids under 5, but I am glad to find that my 8 year old can get a booster, probably as early as tomorrow. Supposedly June will be the meeting to approve under 5 vaccines? Hopefully? On June 8, 21, and 22, the FDA meets to discuss the under 5 vaccine.
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May 19, 2022 15:28
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It is interesting that lockdowns are described as inhumane but letting a million Americans die of covid is somehow not described that way I guess because the latter is just common sense or something, or the term "humane" is referring to something other than saving lives (not inconveniencing the rich, I suppose)
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May 19, 2022 15:51
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Fleve posted:People seem to be underestimating how disruptive a Chinese-style lockdown is. This isn’t some leisurely work-from-home semi-holiday with walks in the local countryside. Thanks for this post. You are correct that people in this thread who are advocating for these types of strict lockdowns have not personally experienced them, or even tried to learn what they are actually like. To them, the whole thing is basically about powering their pre-existing beliefs of "China good" and "USA bad", which is why they only care about one single metric as the end-all-be-all number: deaths prevented. I think one such poster unironically used the term "score board" earlier to describe how China was doing better wrt Covid. They no doubt view the whole thing as a game.
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May 19, 2022 16:30
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VitalSigns posted:It is interesting that lockdowns are described as inhumane but letting a million Americans die of covid is somehow not described that way Multiple things can, in fact, be inhumane, and if you don't have anything of more substance to say after someone put up a huge effort post about actually living in Shanghai under Covid lockdown, you are certainly free to shut the gently caress up, it costs literally nothing.
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May 19, 2022 16:35
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Lager posted:Ridiculous to me that the CDC and FDA are still just sitting on vaccines for kids under 5, but I am glad to find that my 8 year old can get a booster, probably as early as tomorrow. Supposedly June will be the meeting to approve under 5 vaccines? Hopefully? It's not so much sitting on it as the data came back from the trials and they didn't really work in 2-5s, at least in Pfizer's case, because they undershot the dosage. So the two options are start phase 2/3 trials again with a higher dose or try a third dose with the lower dosage. The latter is much faster and what they're going with but still takes a bit of time. I think some people seem to think that it's the FDA running the studies on the vaccines and they're dragging their feet. They don't, they just analyze the data the companies provide and make a decision. The issues with the under 5 studies/dosages aren't something just US regulators are concerned about. As far as I'm aware of no country has approved Pfizer for under 5s because they're all pulling from the same submitted data. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 16:39 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 16:37
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Slow News Day posted:Thanks for this post. You are correct that people in this thread who are advocating for these types of strict lockdowns have not personally experienced them, or even tried to learn what they are actually like. To them, the whole thing is basically about powering their pre-existing beliefs of "China good" and "USA bad", which is why they only care about one single metric as the end-all-be-all number: deaths prevented. I think one such poster unironically used the term "score board" earlier to describe how China was doing better wrt Covid. They no doubt view the whole thing as a game. I wouldn't think I'd need to elaborate on why deaths are super bad, basically the worst possible thing, but for example of just one knock-on effect, COVID has orphaned 5 million children. Trying to do a cost benefit analysis with lockdowns sucking vs. piles and piles of bodies. It's like trying to balance a feather vs. a brick and then when they don't balance you're like "ah, but I've got another feather here, sometimes the food is bad in lockdown and that makes people sad. See, two feathers."
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May 19, 2022 16:39
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Lager posted:Ridiculous to me that the CDC and FDA are still just sitting on vaccines for kids under 5, but I am glad to find that my 8 year old can get a booster, probably as early as tomorrow. Supposedly June will be the meeting to approve under 5 vaccines? Hopefully? My 5-year-old just got his shot yesterday, and it's such a goddamn relief. The last 2 years have been nerve-wracking.
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May 19, 2022 16:40
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I'm not certain we even need a COVID-zero strategy at this point, and it's pretty obvious that the harsh lockdowns required to actually pursue COVID-zero are bad in their own ways, but the alternative should be a "COVID-reduction" strategy instead of simply letting everything go with literally no restrictions or precautions. That's going to save lives, and having better air filtration, and wearing masks consistently is not actually a big imposition in any way, compared to the lives it would save. poo poo, having better ventilation and air filtration is probably very good for its own sake!
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May 19, 2022 16:48
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If China is doing so great, why did they let this disease escape their boarders in the first place? Maybe if they hadn't been telling doctors to shut the gently caress up the rest of the world wouldn't have had to suffer through this in the first place.
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May 19, 2022 16:48
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PT6A posted:I'm not certain we even need a COVID-zero strategy at this point, and it's pretty obvious that the harsh lockdowns required to actually pursue COVID-zero are bad in their own ways, but the alternative should be a "COVID-reduction" strategy instead of simply letting everything go with literally no restrictions or precautions. That's going to save lives, and having better air filtration, and wearing masks consistently is not actually a big imposition in any way, compared to the lives it would save. poo poo, having better ventilation and air filtration is probably very good for its own sake! It would obviously be better than what the U.S. is doing right now, no argument from me there. We are a country so easily blinkered by ideology that half of us won't wear masks, which is basically asking nothing of a person.
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May 19, 2022 16:54
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Zerocovid will work until it finally doesn't, then it will never work again. What matters is what you do with the time it buys.
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May 19, 2022 16:54
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Someone pointing out that starving people in their apartments and delivering them spoiled food after weeks is inhumane should not be taken as an endorsement of the way the US is currently (not) dealing with Covid. There are in fact other countries than China and the US in the world. Stop making up strawmen to get mad at ffs.
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May 19, 2022 16:57
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Solkanar512 posted:If China is doing so great, why did they let this disease escape their boarders in the first place? Maybe if they hadn't been telling doctors to shut the gently caress up the rest of the world wouldn't have had to suffer through this in the first place. That's definitely a thing that gets forgotten a lot, but not by me. If the CCP had acted quickly and responsibly they could have spared the entire world this plague. Obama committed massive resources to East Africa in the fight against the Ebola outbreak in 2014. He understood you have to act quickly and with enormous resources to nip these potential disasters in the bud. In late 2019 the CCP was sending cops to harass doctors who spoke out about a new virus, and censoring discussion on social media.
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May 19, 2022 17:04
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PostNouveau posted:I wouldn't think I'd need to elaborate on why deaths are super bad, basically the worst possible thing, but for example of just one knock-on effect, COVID has orphaned 5 million children. That argument breaks down under the smallest scrutiny though. If society thought that preventing deaths was a proverbial "brick" and the Most Important Thing Ever and everything else was a "feather" in comparison, then we would immediately cease activities such as driving personal vehicles. Traffic accidents kill 60k people in China every year, a number that is likely to increase as more Chinese people get to own cars. And yet I don't see you advocating for a Zero Driving policy. Why is that? Even at the individual level, humans regularly decide that life under such-and-such conditions is not worth living. People in prison, people who have suffered tremendous loss, people who cannot get their most basic needs met, etc. So clearly, things like "quality of life" matter way more than you seem to believe. How are u posted:That's definitely a thing that gets forgotten a lot, but not by me. If the CCP had acted quickly and responsibly they could have spared the entire world this plague. Obama committed massive resources to East Africa in the fight against the Ebola outbreak in 2014. He understood you have to act quickly and with enormous resources to nip these potential disasters in the bud. In late 2019 the CCP was sending cops to harass doctors who spoke out about a new virus, and censoring discussion on social media. I'm reminded of that one Chinese doctor who sounded the alarm early on, got silenced/censored by the CCP, and died from Covid a short time later. Poor guy.
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May 19, 2022 17:15
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VitalSigns posted:It is interesting that lockdowns are described as inhumane but letting a million Americans die of covid is somehow not described that way Who's saying this? The only mention of "humane" or "inhumane" in the last three pages was to describe China putting communities in house arrest for a month and a half without consistent food supplies and with no guarantee that you'd be able to go to the hospital in a timely manner even in the case of a serious medical issue. Do you think that's not at least a little inhumane? If so, I'd appreciate if you directly confronted that, rather than throwing around vague allusions like this. Besides, human society weighs lives vs convenience all the time. COVID can join the long list of things that governments already let their citizens die of. Tobacco kills half a million Americans a year, putting it roughly on par with COVID in terms of current death count. And the impact is worse in poorer countries, resulting in 7 million tobacco-related deaths a year worldwide (which is higher than COVID's entire confirmed death toll to date). That doesn't even count the long-term health consequences smoking causes, or the way that secondhand smoke can spread that impact to others (though secondhand smoke's contributions are factored into those death counts). I don't know the exact methodology behind those numbers, but I see them everywhere, including from both the CDC and WHO, so I assume they're not bullshit. Yet despite the fact that tobacco kills more people every year than COVID does, and the fact that tobacco cigarettes have basically no positive uses besides being kinda enjoyable for some people, we've failed to ban or heavily restrict cigarettes - even though just stopping their manufacture and sale is far easier and much less disruptive to people's lives than suddenly putting a whole neighborhood under house arrest for a month. It's not just tobacco, either. A hundred thousand Americans die from alcohol-related causes every year, not to mention the considerable life impacts alcohol can have, both on the drinker and on those around them. Yet we don't ban recreational alcohol drinking. Obesity causes the deaths of at least a hundred thousand Americans every year. Yet we don't ban sodas, cakes, or calorie-heavy fast food. The considerable death toll of driving was already brought up recently. The consequences of neglecting climate change get brought up often enough in D&D. And so on. So there's already plenty of evidence that humanity as a whole is already willing to let some entirely preventable deaths happen, simply because preventing those deaths would involve too much inconvenience to too many people. If you want to give your moral opinion on that, I suppose you can feel free. But I don't think it's really all that applicable to the current thread, since all of us (including you) are complicit in preventable deaths. After all, as we all know:  So if we want to talk the ethical dimensions of lockdowns vs COVID, we need to get a lot more specific than just pointing to the existence of preventable deaths and expecting that to end the argument.
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May 19, 2022 17:19
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:That argument breaks down under the smallest scrutiny though. If society thought that preventing deaths was a proverbial "brick" and the Most Important Thing Ever and everything else was a "feather" in comparison, then we would immediately cease activities such as driving personal vehicles. Traffic accidents kill 60k people in China every year, a number that is likely to increase as more Chinese people get to own cars. And yet I don't see you advocating for a Zero Driving policy. Why is that? It always seems very fuzzy, where would one draw the line? From what I understand, there's a common rule of thumb that actuaries use that the risk of death in childbirth is an acceptable level of risk. In the U.S. you can ballpark it at 10-15 per 100K. Risk of death from COVID is about 300 per 100K so it's way off. I mean, I wouldn't make decisions based on it, but it brings a little clarity about how society balances these things typically. I'd say the biggest other factor here is COVID is highly contagious, and driving isn't. If you don't stamp it out, it grows exponentially.
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May 19, 2022 17:39
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Well, the thing is, yes we obvious allow the sale and use of alcohol and tobacco despite the harm they cause. But we don't simply say "well, perfection isn't possible, so go hog wild!" No, we say "you can't smoke indoors in public places, you can't smoke on school property, you can't smoke in your car if your kids are in there, if you choose to smoke you'll pay high taxes to cover some of your inevitable healthcare costs, you can't operate a vehicle drunk" and so on and so forth, because we recognize that some limitations on the freedom to use tobacco and alcohol are reasonable and prudent. We need that with COVID.
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May 19, 2022 17:39
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PostNouveau posted:I'd say the biggest other factor here is COVID is highly contagious, and driving isn't. If you don't stamp it out, it grows exponentially. Have you seen how wildly aggressive people have been driving since the pandemic started?  I'm being a little bit flip, but honestly I do think there's something about bad driving that's contagious to some degree.
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May 19, 2022 17:42
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Social contagion and pathogenic contagion aren't quite the same thing
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May 19, 2022 17:45
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:It's not so much sitting on it as the data came back from the trials and they didn't really work in 2-5s, at least in Pfizer's case, because they undershot the dosage. Yeah, except that Moderna also has an under 5s shot ready and has submitted their results, back in March if memory serves, but FDA decided they didn't want to rush and they'd just wait 2-3 months to look at it and make a decision.
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May 19, 2022 18:46
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Lager posted:Yeah, except that Moderna also has an under 5s shot ready and has submitted their results, back in March if memory serves, but FDA decided they didn't want to rush and they'd just wait 2-3 months to look at it and make a decision. April 28th, it's only been 3 weeks. That's also when they started submitting the data. They didn't complete it until a week ago. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-completes-fda-submission-use-covid-shot-adolescents-kids-2022-05-11/ Also often if things take long time, anyone in regulatory will tell you that's often because there's some serious issues that need resolving and the regulator is giving the manufacturer a chance to actually rectify things without outright rejecting it. Happens in medical devices all the time. That being said it's really not a sure thing. Moderna reported something like 37% effectiveness in 2-6s. That's far below the original acceptance criteria regulators set. Doesn't mean it won't get through but it does mean there'll be some back and forth and careful scrutiny of any reported adverse events. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 18:55
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illcendiary posted:Lol, someone who *actually* lives in Shanghai and has to deal with what their COVID-zero policy entails makes a great effortpost and it goes completely ignored by the “China-style lockdowns here now” crowd Most of my coworkers are in Shanghai, I was already familiar with how much the lockdown sucked. And nobody in the thread is saying "chinese lockdowns here now", they're talking about how effective lockdowns are. If you want to argue against lockdowns, fine, but saying "buuuuuut the economics" is not super convincing when, tough as they are to live through, they absolutely save huge amounts of lives. "It really sucked" vs "and yet almost nobody died" isn't hard math. I'll take a lovely 2 months over death. The US has people who don't get food and live in squalor and have uncontrolled COVID roaming the land.
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May 19, 2022 19:53
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:April 28th, it's only been 3 weeks. That's also when they started submitting the data. They didn't complete it until a week ago. Thought it was earlier than that, but I guess that's time dilation working its magic on me. Though the reporting around this has been that the FDA is not holding off on approval due to serious issues or manufacturing problems but rather due to political concerns over confusing the public by authorizing Moderna's shot when the Pfizer shot isn't ready until sometime in June. In fact, listening to the CDC meeting on boosters for 5-11 year olds that is wrapping up right now, some of the committee members are bringing up that they believe the FDA should expedite the process for the Moderna EUA and get the shots out to kids as quickly as is safely possible. So it seems that even some within these groups are frustrated at the perceived inaction.
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May 19, 2022 20:57
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:April 28th, it's only been 3 weeks. That's also when they started submitting the data. They didn't complete it until a week ago. yeah this makes me curious, iirc any vaccine in 2020 had to have at least 50% efficacy to be considered to be 'effective' and worth the government paying for. 37% ain't gettin' it. They need to just scale down the omicron version they've already got and use that (though I can see why they don't).
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May 19, 2022 20:58
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Slow News Day posted:Thanks for this post. You are correct that people in this thread who are advocating for these types of strict lockdowns have not personally experienced them, or even tried to learn what they are actually like. To them, the whole thing is basically about powering their pre-existing beliefs of "China good" and "USA bad", which is why they only care about one single metric as the end-all-be-all number: deaths prevented. I think one such poster unironically used the term "score board" earlier to describe how China was doing better wrt Covid. They no doubt view the whole thing as a game. I wouldn't say they're as cavalier as treating it as a game, but the China weabooism feels at least in part an emotional response to the US' complete and total failure to even try to stop COVID from ripping through the country. I know that would've made me angry if I lived there and I can see how it would put blinkers on. PostNouveau posted:I wouldn't think I'd need to elaborate on why deaths are super bad, basically the worst possible thing, but for example of just one knock-on effect, COVID has orphaned 5 million children. This was a relevant argument in 2020 and some of 2021, when COVID-zero was an excellent policy. It's not a relevant argument after widespread vaccination. Jaxyon posted:I'll take a lovely 2 months over death. Pay attention to what people living under that policy are taking the time to tell you: quote:If all of that would be contained to, say, a 2-month period and then everything would be more or less normal, then yeah. It’s still terribly disruptive, but that might be worth it. But to have all that loom over your head for an indefinite period, with no plan for the future other than more zero-covid, with no efforts for any long-term alternative? That’s just not a sustainable environment to be living in. You’re basically always on the brink of another natural disaster at the whim of the government with no end in sight. I’m hoping to leave in June. Nobody in this thread to my memory has once argued against lockdowns because of "the economics."
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May 19, 2022 21:33
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freebooter posted:Pay attention to what people living under that policy are taking the time to tell you: I have. Did you somehow get the idea that I think it doesn't suck? Do you think it's nice as a immunocompromised person to live under an unending reign of death? For literal years? Or do those folks count for less? quote:Nobody in this thread to my memory has once argued against lockdowns because of "the economics." Well, Thorn Wishes Talon posted:That's not what happened in China though. Not only did Shanghai shutting down have significant and severe downwind economic effects on every other province (not to mention the country as a whole, and perhaps even the entire world that depends on China), people in places like Beijing and Guangzhou were (and still are) in a state of constant fear as well, not knowing whether their own cities or provinces might be locked down next. Granted, Cincinnati is nowhere as economically significant as Shanghai, but the idea that local shutdowns are isolated to their locality and everyone else can go on with their lives is, frankly, bonkers.
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May 19, 2022 21:47
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The reason everyone gets stuck on ‘China food, no actually it’s bad’ arguments is to claim China is good admits that personal liberty isn’t the highest priority in life and to claim that it’s bad, actually, admits that the millions died to preserve that personal liberty, not because it was somehow inevitable. VV-- But you read it, and I think you're sweet for it --VV nomad2020 fucked around with this message at 22:55 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 22:44
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No idea what that post means but Chinese food is good and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
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May 19, 2022 22:51
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The only reason Shaghai's lockdown lasted as long as it did is because the local government tried to half-rear end it. As soon as the central government said "gently caress you, you aren't special, do it our way or get out" it rapidly came under control. If Shanghai had followed the rules from the start, their lockdown would already be over and people would have suffered far less under them. This is the exact same thing as Australia, except our federal government didn't step in to fix things. You can say 'people stopped supporting lockdowns because cases kept rising', but cases kept rising because NSW was allowed to keep half-assing it. Of course people are not going to support lockdowns if they can plainly see that governments are setting lockdowns up to fail. People aren't stupid. I'm probably the most pro-lockdown person I know, but as soon as I saw what NSW was doing I bought a respirator and started planning to 'live with covid'. And I was frustrated with Victoria's government for continuing to push state lockdowns while it was obvious we were just going to keep importing cases from NSW, because it was only undermining public support for lockdowns generally. None of this is complicated. Lockdowns work (and do not require 'inhumane' methods drawn out over months). Literally all it requires is a government willing to tell rich people that they have to follow the same rules as everyone else, without exception. This means lockdowns cannot succeed in most countries, and that's hosed and people should be angry about it. It's a failure of leadership.
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May 20, 2022 00:38
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100% this ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Also, 
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May 20, 2022 00:54
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I'm not sure there's any point to lamenting the lack of China-style lockdowns in the United States, the reality is such measures would have been impossible to enforce when half the country believed Covid was a hoax from the start and chuds were shooting up security guards for being asked to put on a mask. At that point you might as well be lamenting the fact that Paxlovid didn't exist in March 2020 if you're trying to think up fantasy scenarios that would have saved a million lives.
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May 20, 2022 00:59
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