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imo the only infantry archers that should have AP are Waywatchers.
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May 18, 2022 23:04
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:31 |
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I think that ranged AP damage is not worth as much in TWW3 as in TWW2 because there are four demon factions plus DP and three of them are more or less unarmoured while Khorne's armour is limited (I think even the Bloodthirster is ARM 70 and it's only Khornate warriors that have decent armour). And even ogres aren't known for their armour other than ironguts, mournfang cav, the stonehorn, and the artillery. Empire in Warhammer 3 are probably better off investing in pistoleers and hunters than handgunners and outriders.
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May 18, 2022 23:21
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nah, they should let avelorn archers still be ap, but they should be limited to one or two for every wood elf tree settlement you take (avelorn obviously counts as one). so you can try and get more OP archers, but you'll have to get a taste of that medicine before you can start doling it out.
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May 18, 2022 23:23
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Nobody but me should ever get to use sisters of avelorn
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May 18, 2022 23:27
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Give all shielded infantry missile deflect
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May 18, 2022 23:32
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Give missile balance over to the historical nerds and just accept what comes out.
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May 18, 2022 23:43
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Launch wh1 and WH3 were both better than WH2, and WH2 got even worse over time with DLC. That's my one concern with the WH2 DLC folks being in charge. E: as far as AP missile damage goes I mean. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 00:23 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 18, 2022 23:47
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Take away all the armored piercing missile damage and give it to Grimgor. He needs an armor piercing missile attack the most.
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May 18, 2022 23:52
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Ranged units fall under a few general categories. Non AP arrows, which have the benefit of arcing but are relatively slow projectiles. These tend to fall off in effectiveness mid to late game as resists and armor get stronger. For factions that can carry with ranged most of the time it's more to do with the VOLUME of fire more than anything. Trash ranged units scale better in quantity than trash melee units because ranged can have 100% of the unit shooting any given time. The ballistic trajectory means it's also easier to hit things in general. The best way to keep this type of unit relavent mid to late game is to have mid to high tier versions that frontload damage at the expense of ap, as there will still be some viable targets that will take far more damage with this combo. Armor piercing gun projectiles which do disproportionately more damage to ap targets and have a flat trajectory and fast projectile speed. They're harder to get in LOS but much better vs flyers due to inherently better accuracy. Better mid to late game. One nice thing about flat trajectories is that you're likely to hit another model behind the intended target if you miss. It's relatively easy to balance with low ap weapons, as a high dmg/low ap arrow will have more dps vs unarmored, and a low dmg/high ap bullet will have more dps vs armored. I enjoyed mods that made rifle units even more specialized by giving them very high per shot damage but extremely low reload; positioning became very important and it was a waste to use them against numerous trash infantry. Repeater crossbows which fire a pair of bolts per model and typically have better ap but lower range than arrow units. It's important to note the game designates a unit as "ap" if it does more than 50% of its dps as ap so not all ap projectiles are alike. Melee units can be similarly deceptive, often a 'great weapon' unit will do more ap than a 'halberd' unit while both being considered armor piercing. The 2x xbow projectiles can offset smaller squad sizes and improves the chances of shots getting through vs shielded enemies. Nonstandard projectiles which include unusually high ap arrows, low ap bullets, and poison/fire/magic projectiles. Most of these are either prohibitively expensive to field or are more intended as support. Since neither poison nor fire stacks on a single target you don't need to go overboard with these variants. The magic projectiles are particularly notable as these will bypass missile resist (which you see a lot of in fast flanking units and high tier monster units). AP doesn't help vs that and so these will do pretty well. Best example being Ice Guard, which have only moderate base damage but in the form of long range, magic, and slowing. This unit doesn't need a ton of base dps because so goddamn much of it will be getting through, and the ice/tempest lores have other slowing effects that can stack with frostbite. One thing I feel is lacking is bonus vs large, as late game you're going to be shooting at more large targets and this is another format very easy to balance via low damage high anti large damage (SFO did this with cannon which were slow firing and meh vs infantry but MURDERED large targets if they hit them).
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May 18, 2022 23:53
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jokes posted:Nobody but me should ever get to use sisters of avelorn On a similar note, I'm glad that the bug where that technology gave every Khorne unit vanguard deployment has been fixed, now that I've finished a legendary Skarbrand campaign.
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May 19, 2022 00:21
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Panfilo posted:One thing I feel is lacking is bonus vs large, as late game you're going to be shooting at more large targets and this is another format very easy to balance via low damage high anti large damage (SFO did this with cannon which were slow firing and meh vs infantry but MURDERED large targets if they hit them). There's several anti-large ranged units; empire huntsmen, scourgerunner chariots, and marauder hunters come to mind. Globadiers used to be in this niche too before the skaven rework. Anti-large ranged units have to be handed out very carefully, because ranged units are already disproportionately good against large targets due to their large size making them easier to hit and ranged being able to focus fire them.
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May 19, 2022 02:35
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Jeff the Mediocre posted:Take away all the armored piercing missile damage and give it to Grimgor. He needs an armor piercing missile attack the most. This is the answer. All power to Grimgrog.
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May 19, 2022 02:41
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Jeff the Mediocre posted:Take away all the armored piercing missile damage and give it to Grimgor. He needs an armor piercing missile attack the most. Let him throw goblins like the Doomdiver Catapult, but he starts with no ammo and the only way he can replenish it is to use an ability on a nearby goblin unit that takes a few of their models.
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May 19, 2022 03:07
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Nah let him get in the doomdiver and get shot across the map directly into enemy lines doing massive aoe damage and then getting combat buffs while he krumps everyone around him
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May 19, 2022 04:18
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Arghy posted:Give missile balance over to the historical nerds and just accept what comes out. paging Shad, Skallagrim, Metatron and that German guy who makes crossbows (awesome)
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May 19, 2022 09:00
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:Nah let him get in the doomdiver and get shot across the map directly into enemy lines doing massive aoe damage and then getting combat buffs while he krumps everyone around him
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May 19, 2022 09:03
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Looking over at the nice improvements to research for Kislev, I'm thinking Strelsi might be even more overall good late game on account of applying so many more tech buffs than before. Probably should have renamed Breech Loaders if you were going to apply it to Kossars. Breech Loading bows? Come on lol.
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May 19, 2022 11:33
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Panfilo posted:The magic projectiles are particularly notable as these will bypass missile resist they don't.
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May 19, 2022 13:50
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I am astounded that no modder has attempted any of the proposed solutions to ranged AP dominance suggested in this thread. Surely such a thing would be comparatively simple next to the much more ambitious balance overhauls that exist.
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May 19, 2022 15:04
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I think you balance ranged power by improving the state of melee infantry, not by kneecapping cool rear end missile units. - Campaign level ammo replenishment, with a post battle option to replenishment some n% of ammo, encamp stance and such in enemy territory. - Buff infantry shields across the board - shooting directly into the front of a shielded unit should not be nearly as effective as it currently is. - Boost melee infantry replenishment for all races. They are by their nature going to take losses, they should be able to replenish faster than their ranged counterparts.
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May 19, 2022 15:06
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Just give the AI an extra four units of Dogs to summon into every battle
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May 19, 2022 15:08
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99pct of germs posted:I think you balance ranged power by improving the state of melee infantry, not by kneecapping cool rear end missile units. ???? (I agree with the suggestions but this is definitionally kneecapping ranged units) Though, real talk, people would probably be enormously pissed about having to micromanage ammo expenditures in battle.
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May 19, 2022 15:10
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Ranged units are less likely to take model losses in a battle, but unlike melee units can fully regain all of their combat potential even after a defeat. Granted its probably a bad idea, because it'll be another system the AI wouldn't be able to handle. edit: I would rather be punished with more strategic decisions than watch individual units get turned into garbage because ranged power outclasses most other units. 99pct of germs fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 15:43
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There was a mod that does campaign ammo replenishment. Each fight, you expend ammo, and only replenish in friendly territory. It was interesting but came with a lot of other stuff. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2789865012
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May 19, 2022 15:52
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Tiler Kiwi posted:they don't. This makes no sense. Magic damage already bypasses physical resist, why wouldn't it bypass missile defense? After all, if you want the be all end all damage mitigation you have ward saves.
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May 19, 2022 16:31
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Missile resist stopping missiles makes perfekt sense tho?
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May 19, 2022 16:42
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jokes posted:I liked the anti-large bow boys that Empire gets from that one expansion. I liked the ridiculous anti large archers that the tomb kings had
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May 19, 2022 16:42
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Panfilo posted:This makes no sense. Magic damage already bypasses physical resist, why wouldn't it bypass missile defense? After all, if you want the be all end all damage mitigation you have ward saves. Missile resist is effective against all types of missiles period. It's not "physical missile resist", it's "missile resist".
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May 19, 2022 17:36
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I think the solution would be to make cavalry better because archers just aren’t scared enough of cavalry if they can blunt the charge by murdering them. They should also do a cavalry cost nerf across the board. I don’t know why all these high tier cavalry cost so much for their current performance.
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May 19, 2022 17:52
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Missile resist is a ward save vs missiles so it's a flat damage reduction which is why you shouldn't neglect it.Jimmy Noskill posted:I am astounded that no modder has attempted any of the proposed solutions to ranged AP dominance suggested in this thread. Surely such a thing would be comparatively simple next to the much more ambitious balance overhauls that exist. Oh they have multiple times but it's really hard balancing all the missile units across all the factions so you usually end up with super OP units or garbage units. In the end a toggle for direct fire mode like the pointy ear arty would be the best, arcing missiles will have almost no AP but direct fire would be majority AP.
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May 19, 2022 18:53
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Lord Packinham posted:I think the solution would be to make cavalry better because archers just aren’t scared enough of cavalry if they can blunt the charge by murdering them. I'm still sad that what I presume are TWW engine limitations prevents us from having 3K levels of shock cav. I like using TWW cav and they're more usable than most people think, but I'd really enjoy the "elite heavy cav slams into an infantry block's rear and they vaporize like an ice block hit with a flamethrower" effect from 3K.
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May 19, 2022 19:20
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Panfilo posted:This makes no sense. Magic damage already bypasses physical resist, why wouldn't it bypass missile defense? After all, if you want the be all end all damage mitigation you have ward saves. because it bypass physical resist, which otherwise also reduces ranged damage. magical fire attacks don't bypass fire resist either, which is more niche but it is consistent.
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May 19, 2022 19:29
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Just reduce all the firing arcs to WH1. And restore cav/monster mechanics to WH1. And make gun LOS issues worse like in WH1. I've been playing some WH1 and it's honestly been quite fun. It's gotta be 99%+ of players that don't give a gently caress about good racial balance and just want warhammer smash things fun game. TWWH2 was fun but the cav/monster changes have made it quite a bit worse. e: Empire Knights can beat a unique of Peasant Halberds 1 on 1 in TW1. It's not pretty, but given they cost way more $ and tech, it fits. Monsters are even better. 1st_Panzer_Div. fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 19:34
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I don't remember what cav/monsters were like back in the day but please no on the LOS issues.
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May 19, 2022 19:47
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Did they fix the terrible autoresolve for nurgle and slaanesh?
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May 19, 2022 22:26
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the one idea id like to see is damage falloff so range isn't the end all be all for ranged units. indirect shots ought to be less damaging as well. it doesn't help that "AP" is so binary, as is the notion of something hitting something else or not. really tho the biggest issue that makes ranged op in campaign is just too many stacking bonuses to ammo, and that the ai is really terrible at dealing with it. in mp you generally want two or three infantry units for every ranged since players will mercilessly try to throttle any ranged unit you've got - even as wood elves you'd rather not have your elite fire-while-moving fae lads waste all their expertly crafted arrows on some menacing goblins running after them.
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May 20, 2022 03:37
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That recent patch was everything the roadmap said it would be, am I right? I guess we're waiting for July now. Do the fixes work? Any new problems besides the patch somehow switching around the campaign lord select screen? Any tips for Kislev vs Kislev fighting in the campaign?
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May 20, 2022 04:00
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Tiler Kiwi posted:the one idea id like to see is damage falloff so range isn't the end all be all for ranged units. indirect shots ought to be less damaging as well. it doesn't help that "AP" is so binary, as is the notion of something hitting something else or not. yeah, that's good thinking. probably the quickest way to change it would be taking away the lord's ability to give more ammo to all of his archers, but instead get the ability of the gunnery wight and be able to give some of those units more ammo. you can still have some extra ammo techs in the technology tree, but far more limited.
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May 20, 2022 04:10
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oh i kind of mangled that last paragraph, it was meant to be more separate concerns (too much ammo, and the AI is bad vs ranged armies). but its also bad at dealing with excessive amounts of ammunition as well so it worked out. its more that some units like sisters or waywatchers are very ammo starved in MP but in SP they get enough shots that even if you send shielded chaff to screen them out they'll trivially wipe them out without busting their quivers. what is also going on that makes campaign different from MP is that in MP your unit count and army value are generally never that high. the cost effectiveness of ranged fire is on a curve - spend a little, and its cost effective as they are protected enough by infantry that they can put out their damage. get more of it, and it flips to being cost ineffective - they're more expensive than infantry of similar quality and they can be shut down a lot more easily. but once you spend a fairly large amount, ranged units become extremely cost effective as they can put out enough firepower to cancel out their own weakness of being overrun by selectively annihilating melee units trying to approach. on top of that, of course, is that the 20 unit limit on armies greatly benefits both high cost units, and ranged units. Now, a player could still counter this - bring hard hitting fast units and micro them very well so they cannot be individually focused down, but such an army is less generally useful, will take more casualties, and more difficult to use than 19 lothern archers + light archmage. And the AI doesn't build armies specifically to counter what you're up to. or, outside of wood elves, go that heavy with elite ranged to necessitate brining specialist armies. and then wood elves are a huge loving pain to fight since you often end up in some horrible 40 v 40 match in a loving forest anyways. one idea i just had to try to reduce the impact the 20 unit limit has on things is to let you 'stack up' units - but each additional unit stacked in such a way increases the units cost by, idk, 2x or something. People might not complain about stuff like skavenslaves becoming useless in campaign if you could get 480 rats in a single unit, and itd be great for screening ranged fire.
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May 20, 2022 04:40
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:31 |
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"Screening" ranged fire can't really exist as long as a ranged unit can do full damage at full range in an arc over any potential screens. Also more powerful techs further limits usefulness of allies. Which is part of why I generally liked the techs and redline as-is. Again, while the game had some problems, I'm not sure the reddit hivemind identified them all correctly.
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May 20, 2022 12:23
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