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General Battuta posted:Now do the smart thing and avoid SFWA and everything associated with it for the rest of your life!
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# ? May 22, 2022 20:08 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 12:54 |
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# ? May 22, 2022 20:40 |
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General Battuta posted:Now do the smart thing and avoid SFWA and everything associated with it for the rest of your life! Huh? This is the first negative opinion of SFWA I have encountered. It's hard to play devil's advocate here and see your point of view. I guess if you were like, indie or punk and hated establishments you might be against SFWA. Or if you were on a magazine that was previously snubbed by SFWA rules. I don't have much experience with volunteering with SFWA, have you volunteered with them in the past and had a bad experience? DropTheAnvil fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 22, 2022 |
# ? May 22, 2022 21:23 |
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DropTheAnvil posted:Huh? This is the first negative opinion of SFWA I have encountered. tbf the general is a fairly well-known sci fi author, so its understandable if they don't want to spill the tea in a way that might come back at them
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# ? May 22, 2022 21:30 |
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It's like being on Twitter. There's very little to gain from it and a very good chance you will get sucked into something unbelievably stupid and possibly life-destroying. There is no boundary between professional and fan spaces in SFF. 'Fan' activities like organizing conventions and litigating polyamorous drama occur in the same spaces as 'professional' activities like running publishing houses or reviewing work. 'Fan' preoccupations like determining the morality of character ships in Steven Universe bleed directly into 'professional' preoccupations like talking shop about who got a big advance. They happen in the same spaces among the same people at the same time. If you have looked at the kind of drama that happens in fan spaces, you can imagine what kind of septic environment SFWA generates. Add some deranged stalkers (who, for example, recently scraped the personal info of everyone in SFWA and are now busily looking for people to accuse of pedophilia) and a culture of paranoid reading and circular purity testing that has been hardened by least twenty years of constant internal grudgebuilding over every issue imaginable. Add the occasional blowup so bad it makes international news and/or hospitalizes someone. Now imagine that as a professional organization. Would you want to sign up? e: The new blood also comes in through a narrow cluster of writers' workshops like Clarion and Odyssey, so they all know each other and are pre-set to start having affairs and big friend breakups over who got a book deal first. These interpersonal networks kind of stack in a columnar fashion all the way back to the 70s when everyone slept with everybody else. It just fuckin sucks. It's an awful professional environment. It is not well suited to doing things that matter like 'writing books' and 'being happy'. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 23, 2022 |
# ? May 23, 2022 01:16 |
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Have you ever heard a single piece of news or gossip about SFWA that didn't seem excruciatingly embarrassing? I guess the scambusting stuff and medical coverage are both pretty wholesome.
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# ? May 23, 2022 01:20 |
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Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Writing Books or Being Happy: Choose One ducks and leaves
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# ? May 23, 2022 01:55 |
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So I got some enthusiasm readers for my novel project and some interesting results. For setup purposes, the book is a dark fantasy horror-thriller inspired by stories like The Thing, The Descent, Day of the Jackal, and Death Wish (Brian Garfield's anti-vigilante novel, not the ridiculous but fun movies) and is meant to be an anti-war, anti-imperialism narrative. I wrote it because I really generally don't like most fantasy I've read and I'm trying to write to my personal tastes by making the story very character- and character action-focused. That means no omniscient lore dumps and the absolute minimum of noodly fantasy genre-style descriptions. There's no real magic, and there are three species of sentients (Human, Elf, and Dragonborn-like Lizardmen). The nations and cultures are all basically mirrors of many of our real world cultures, so I have characters named Lorraine, Hiram, Rupert, Oliver, Vera, etc. The novel has also been an exercise in writing close POVs and unreliable narrators, which has caused interesting feedback. I have both readers of traditional fantasy and readers who are fair weather fantasy fans like I am. The latter tend to pick up on things like the unreliable narrators while also enjoying having mysteries to keep them reading. Their critiques are usually about things like the flow of my prose and recommendations for cleaning up passages here and there. The former get quite upset about things like lore consistency and are really unhappy about having mystery. When it comes to lore, three of said readers (who have no contact with one another) were upset that a POV character was disappointed that she missed a chance to meet <x> character from <y> nation when she could have, as she had heard <z> about said character's culture. Later on, a character from <y> nation shows up and is nothing like the <z> impression of the culture. I meant for that POV character to be misinformed about <x> nation's culture because she lives thousands of miles away from <x> nation and had no reason to be fully informed about their culture, and is meant to tie into characterization and the sense of mystery. Another POV is from the perspective of a veteran from the losing side of a recent war whose POV is informed by his incorrect prejudices against the nation and people that his country lost the war to. One reader said "Oh, that's neat, I actually like it," but I got heavy pushback from the other two readers who seem to be massive lore pedants who believe that "unreliable narrator" is something that should never be done. They also seem to hate mysteries and also want to point out "historical inaccuracies." One of these inaccuracies was really amusing in that a reader was upset that I had characters written to have Australian dialects and accents, when "Australia did not have that much impact on the Imperial Age" (it's a flintlock fantasy). They seemed to have no problem that I had sapient Lizardmen speaking Australian slang with bogan accents, though. I posted this because it's an interesting new experience, and I don't get many opportunities to engage with other writers these days.
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# ? May 23, 2022 02:35 |
General Battuta posted:It just fuckin sucks. It's an awful professional environment. It is not well suited to doing things that matter like 'writing books' and 'being happy'. While I've had no experience with SFWA, my experience querying and seeing Writer Twitter with my own eyes has been illuminating as to this kind of culture and, yeah, it loving sucks. I don't really understand it and the lack of simple professionalism has been astounding.
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# ? May 23, 2022 03:32 |
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:One reader said "Oh, that's neat, I actually like it," but I got heavy pushback from the other two readers who seem to be massive lore pedants who believe that "unreliable narrator" is something that should never be done. I had this same problem with an epistolary I did recently where two people recounted the same event differently. I got pushback from multiple beta readers telling me I needed to fix the continuity errors and I was like ???? The moral of the story is, I think some people struggle with the idea that we all remember the same events a little differently. General Battuta posted:It's like being on Twitter. There's very little to gain from it and a very good chance you will get sucked into something unbelievably stupid and possibly life-destroying. You think that's bad, you should see what happens when you try to buy Twitter. Nae fucked around with this message at 03:42 on May 23, 2022 |
# ? May 23, 2022 03:35 |
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writers are menaces to society and shouldn't be allowed to gather in any quantity tbh
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# ? May 23, 2022 03:35 |
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if only we had a dome to put all the writers in
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# ? May 23, 2022 04:18 |
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Djeser posted:if only we had a dome to put all the writers in They would just fight
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# ? May 23, 2022 04:22 |
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sebmojo posted:They would just fight You could sell tickets, I bet. Hey, also gambling.
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# ? May 23, 2022 05:00 |
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:The novel has also been an exercise in writing close POVs and unreliable narrators, which has caused interesting feedback. I have both readers of traditional fantasy and readers who are fair weather fantasy fans like I am. The latter tend to pick up on things like the unreliable narrators while also enjoying having mysteries to keep them reading. Their critiques are usually about things like the flow of my prose and recommendations for cleaning up passages here and there. The former get quite upset about things like lore consistency and are really unhappy about having mystery. What? What have these traditional fantasy readers actually read from the canon that they aren't acquainted with the idea of unreliable narrators?
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# ? May 23, 2022 05:49 |
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General Battuta posted:It's like being on Twitter. There's very little to gain from it and a very good chance you will get sucked into something unbelievably stupid and possibly life-destroying. It sucks poo poo and I hate it, but I don't see SFWA as being particularly unique in regards to it. SFWA weren't the ones going for the throat with Isabel Falls or Tamsyn Muir, y'know? SFWA members aren't the ones sending editors video of themselves at the gun range or calling people's workplaces trying to get them fired because they didn't denounce Today's Scapegoat loudly enough, SF/F is just a toxic loving environment. I wanted to write wizard books and somehow I ended up in a space where once a month we pick somebody at random and destroy them. I am currently a paid-up member but I'm not sure I'm going to continue with them in future; I was super excited to qualify but I've found them deeply ineffectual, but I haven't found them to be actively malicious or harmful, unlike a LOT of actors in this space. It's constant petty high-school level poo poo but they're not trying to get me killed. I'm gonna be an awful fuckin goon here, but the NCR vs the Legion seems kinda apt. (which is why real gamers say gently caress that noise and take over the lucky 38) SurreptitiousMuffin fucked around with this message at 08:37 on May 23, 2022 |
# ? May 23, 2022 07:50 |
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Leng posted:What? What have these traditional fantasy readers actually read from the canon that they aren't acquainted with the idea of unreliable narrators? You'd be surprised. I had a knock-down drag-out argument with an acquaintance once over the nature of ASOIAF lore where they insisted that there's no conflicting viewpoints or red herrings or anything like that. There are still people who read ASOIAF that fight against the idea that George muddied up the lore a lot. That, and there are people in any Fromsoft space who think "No, there is no mystery in this Soulsborne game, this is the definitive lore," and those people all disagree with each other. At some point years ago, "unreliable narrator" became a critique in and of itself, likely because of stories that misused the concept. Now, a lot of people think the idea is something that should never be done. EDIT I GUESS: I'm also not waving away that feedback. I don't want any sort of mystery or narrative tricks to get in a reader's way of enjoying my story if I can avoid it. I've tried to read stories where I'm being fed misinformation as a trick to cover up the story's faults and I hate that. Also, I'm used to working in some pretty crushingly negative feedback spaces, which on one hand can be helpful. On the other hand, it can make you feel like you're not doing anything right. Receiving positive feedback feels like I'm being pointed in the right direction. Coquito Ergo Sum fucked around with this message at 15:18 on May 23, 2022 |
# ? May 23, 2022 13:46 |
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Looks like SFWA had a rough weekend of giving someone a Grandmaster award one night and then kicking them out of the conference for using racial slurs the next morning, so perhaps it is true that SFWA has a knack for finding press trouble. SFWA Statement: https://www.sfwa.org/2022/05/22/statement-removal-mercedes-lackey-nebula-conference/ EDIT: Oh looks like the SFF thread is already on this. Nae fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 23, 2022 |
# ? May 23, 2022 16:01 |
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When they announced Lackey was getting grandmaster there was Discourse around it and ultimately people went with "look she hasn't said anything THAT bad for somebody her age and she's contributed a lot and people can change, we can't keep kicking out left-leaning people because they said something problematic once" and then immediately after being awarded she's like TIME FOR A SLUR FROM THE 1930S
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# ? May 23, 2022 21:49 |
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:When they announced Lackey was getting grandmaster there was Discourse around it and ultimately people went with "look she hasn't said anything THAT bad for somebody her age and she's contributed a lot and people can change, we can't keep kicking out left-leaning people because they said something problematic once" and then immediately after being awarded she's like TIME FOR A SLUR FROM THE 1930S what did she say?
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# ? May 23, 2022 22:14 |
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She called Chip Delany "Colored" Which like, I know there are worse slurs but you've gotta know that's not a good thing to say, that hasn't been a thing that's been okay to say for a really long time.
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# ? May 23, 2022 22:18 |
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:She called Chip Delany "Colored" I think the SFF thread has some good takes on this. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3900237&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=481 Discussion happens halfway down the thread.
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# ? May 23, 2022 22:26 |
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Not really sure how I feel about the ardent defence of her. It's not the worst thing she could've said but considering how she must know there was debate around her past comments and some people were unhappy with her nomination, it feels like maybe she could've chosen her words more carefully. I don't buy "she's old", she was born in the 70s, not the 40s. I give more leeway for older folks who learned things differently, but that one wasn't considered cool in her time. The statement is an overreaction but it was a lovely thing to do and she should've known better. SurreptitiousMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:08 on May 24, 2022 |
# ? May 24, 2022 00:06 |
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Not really sure how I feel about the ardent defence of her. It's not the worst thing she could've said but considering how she must know there was debate around her past comments and some people were unhappy with her nomination, it feels like maybe she could've chosen her words more carefully. I don't buy "she's old", she was born in the 70s, not the 40s. She IS 70. She was born in the 50s. Not saying it changes the calculus too much, but it does put her squarely in the range of most goons' parents, so you can ask yourself "would my parents say that?" as an easy litmus test. (mine wouldnt but ypmv)
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# ? May 24, 2022 00:10 |
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There's also the fact that "of color" is in vogue now. I think I'm gonna choose to not read any more about this, but without any other info I'd bet that's what she was probably going for.
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# ? May 24, 2022 00:23 |
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I feel like this could have possibly been a "in the future, don't say that," instead of summarily just kicking her out of a position sort of situation but I may be living too far out of the conversation.
Coquito Ergo Sum fucked around with this message at 03:23 on May 24, 2022 |
# ? May 24, 2022 03:12 |
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It's worth noting that Chip issued a statement today saying he doesn't have an issue with it and uses word to refer to himself – there's a whole 'nother conversation about the harm of witnessing, but that's very much secondary to the person directly affected and old mate really doesn't seem to give a poo poo. It kinda feels like overkill, but knives were out for Lackey already and I don't see folks putting them away any time soon.
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# ? May 24, 2022 03:27 |
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I can imagine her being puzzled at the distinction between "person of color" (absolutely fine, normal, respectful, proceed) and "colored person" (nuke statement from orbit, delete anything and anyone associated with it).
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# ? May 24, 2022 03:39 |
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:So I got some enthusiasm readers for my novel project and some interesting results. I think the issue here may be a mismatch of genre expectations. To be honest, your novel sounds fuckin' weird--I was really thrown when you opened with "it's like The Thing or The Descent" and then later mentioned there are elves and lizardmen. This isn't a bad thing imo--it sounds like you are trying to do something original with the genre. But it does mean you should think about what kind of readers you want to attract and how you're going to do that. Both in terms of marketing and how the opening chapters set up the reader's expectations. The "historical inaccuracy" thing is just dumb, especially if you're writing a complete secondary world rather than alt-history-with-magic. Some people are just... very blinkered about stuff like that. I once got a crit that it was "unrealistic" that my fantasy world was cold in the southlands and warm in the north.
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# ? May 24, 2022 03:53 |
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Sailor Viy posted:I think the issue here may be a mismatch of genre expectations. To be honest, your novel sounds fuckin' weird--I was really thrown when you opened with "it's like The Thing or The Descent" and then later mentioned there are elves and lizardmen. This isn't a bad thing imo--it sounds like you are trying to do something original with the genre. But it does mean you should think about what kind of readers you want to attract and how you're going to do that. Both in terms of marketing and how the opening chapters set up the reader's expectations. Yeah, I'm worried that the post was me dumping on my readers, which I'm not. I'm actually taking it as helpful advice and is just a story about my first experience working with readers outside of "writer's circle" critique situation. The remark about The Thing or The Descent is that the plot is that it's about a bunch of people who don't trust each other locked into a desperate situation. There's no monster or supernatural element or anything like that. I guess maybe Assault on Precinct 13 or something like that would be closer.
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# ? May 24, 2022 04:02 |
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:You'd be surprised. I had a knock-down drag-out argument with an acquaintance once over the nature of ASOIAF lore where they insisted that there's no conflicting viewpoints or red herrings or anything like that. There are still people who read ASOIAF that fight against the idea that George muddied up the lore a lot. Forget the larger picture. Did they not pay attention when reading Sansa's POVs at all? Sailor Viy posted:I once got a crit that it was "unrealistic" that my fantasy world was cold in the southlands and warm in the north. As someone who lives on a continent where you only get snow when you go pretty far down south, I feel obligated to invite this person to come visit Australia. To contribute something to the discussion. How often you attempt to do something clever structurally? And then, how often do you manage to pull it off? And is there any pattern to the make or break factors? Because I have just finished reading a first in series that uses
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# ? May 24, 2022 05:54 |
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Leng posted:Forget the larger picture. Did they not pay attention when reading Sansa's POVs at all? Have you seen ASOIAF discussions? Sansa is pretty widely hated among the more casual readers for being "a dumb girl who cares about dumb girl things instead of seeing the larger picture" or something like that. quote:To contribute something to the discussion. How often you attempt to do something clever structurally? And then, how often do you manage to pull it off? And is there any pattern to the make or break factors? I'm finishing one of the biggest book series of all time and I went from enjoying myself to absolutely hating it because there are a bunch of characters who have important information that could help the protagonist and none of them give him this vital information because *shrug*. These people could have given information the antagonist to the hero but the story kept twisting itself in knots in order to keep the reader in
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# ? May 24, 2022 16:02 |
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Leng posted:To contribute something to the discussion. How often you attempt to do something clever structurally? And then, how often do you manage to pull it off? And is there any pattern to the make or break factors? My ideas for working up to some clever twist never seem to survive the actual writing because, once I delve into it, I find a deeper story underneath the reveal and realize the twist itself is pretty shallow. If you have to hold back a story’s development for your big reveal, then there’s not enough story to prop up your big reveal. Every part of a puzzlebox narrative should hold up on its own and be interesting in its own right. Some of the best puzzlebox narratives are ones where you’re not even aware its a puzzlebox until it all clicks into place Also the best inreliable narrators develop organically through their psychology. Like, the ones who are merely holding back information so the author can go “hey presto” later are terribly obvious and annoying. If they’re naturally unreliable because they’re lying to themselves, honestly believe a lie, or have existential reasons to uphold a lie, they’re far more compelling than a character holding back info just because the plot demands x can’t be revealed until y happens
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# ? May 24, 2022 16:40 |
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Yeah. While there are some amazing exceptions, generally the key to an unreliable narrator is that they are lying to themself. edit: also, in my experience from workshops, otherwise intelligent people often have batshit takes on seemingly straightforward writing. Extreme literalness is definitely a common one, along with the ability to relate all characters and plots to their own personal life, no matter how twisted the interpretation. ultrachrist fucked around with this message at 18:06 on May 24, 2022 |
# ? May 24, 2022 18:04 |
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This has definitely been eye-opening. I mostly workshop with other writers, swapping stories. Normally, I get all kinds of critique that has been super helpful, but just taking in enthusiasm readers is actually getting me a lot of feedback that I've wanted but never really received in the past. For example: I got feedback from two readers where they said "I enjoyed this part here, but it feels like you cut the tension off a little early," which is pretty helpful, as I sometimes worry I'm adding in too much description or internalization or something, so it's nice to hear from a reader or readers that I can go a bit further sometimes. It's a really helpful perspective to receive when most writer critiques would tell me to trim down as much as I can (within reason for both scenarios, of course). I'm catching a lot more people coming to the light on my narration perspectives, which has been fun. One reader got to the end of the story and went back and re-examined their critique of a character misremembering a major event in their life. They added in some advice on changes I could make that I'm now considering. The discussions are fun, too, and it's nice to encounter some positivity. My writer workshops can sometimes feel like death marches, so more positive reinforcement of what I'm doing well is a fresh and invigorating feeling. There is only one problem reader, and they are going line by line and nitpicking things like "too many people wearing armor in the flintlock age" when 90% of weapons that people wield in the story are common handheld blades and clubs. Apparently, banjos should not exist in my fantasy setting because ?????
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# ? May 29, 2022 05:41 |
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Enthusiam readers are seriously underrated for how much perspective they provide. Staying firmly within a writer’s crit bubble can absolutely kill your drive when it’s nothing but nitpicks and, “this is how I’d write your story…”Coquito Ergo Sum posted:There is only one problem reader, and they are going line by line and nitpicking things like "too many people wearing armor in the flintlock age" when 90% of weapons that people wield in the story are common handheld blades and clubs. Apparently, banjos should not exist in my fantasy setting because ????? However, these people are the absolute worst. Fire their crits straight into the sun
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# ? May 29, 2022 06:13 |
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:There is only one problem reader, and they are going line by line and nitpicking things like "too many people wearing armor in the flintlock age" when 90% of weapons that people wield in the story are common handheld blades and clubs. Apparently, banjos should not exist in my fantasy setting because ????? Stuporstar posted:However, these people are the absolute worst. Fire their crits straight into the sun Nonononono. Put these people on a separate list labeled "gamma readers" and call them when you're in proofreading with a list of specific things to look out for. That's when you need their super powers for line and word level nitpicking.
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# ? May 29, 2022 07:51 |
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# ? May 29, 2022 16:11 |
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Leng posted:Nonononono. Put these people on a separate list labeled "gamma readers" and call them when you're in proofreading with a list of specific things to look out for. That's when you need their super powers for line and word level nitpicking. That’s only if their nitpicking can be reined in though. Like if you can give them a list and those are what they’ll focus on, great. But my experience with this type of nitpicker is they will never ever stop complaining about dumbass poo poo that’s entirely pedantic or subjective (like that banjo example) and won’t actually improve the story at all if you take in all their annoying suggestions. So all these kinda critters do is waste your time For proofreads, you want a proofreader, not some exhausting well-aktually nerd Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 16:49 on May 29, 2022 |
# ? May 29, 2022 16:46 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 12:54 |
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:There is only one problem reader, and they are going line by line and nitpicking things like "too many people wearing armor in the flintlock age" when 90% of weapons that people wield in the story are common handheld blades and clubs. Apparently, banjos should not exist in my fantasy setting because ?????
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# ? May 29, 2022 21:34 |