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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I’m not sure if any laws like that exist in the US ( Those laws definitely do not exist in the US. Most companies encourage people to just give the bare minimum "yes, that person worked here" response, but it's not illegal for someone to go off script and talk poo poo. If the hiring company forced you to use your current boss as a reference and that happens, that's certainly bullshit on their end, but if any of your other references talk negatively about you then that means you did a poo poo job at picking references.
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May 20, 2022 19:49
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yeah right) but I have heard that it’s generally at least a standard HR practice (to cover their butts, as usual).
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Some states may have more specific protections, but generally in the US the only protection would be a civil lawsuit for defamation. Thus statements that are true are acceptable and I believe opinions grounded in truth should be acceptable as well. Companies just don't want to be sued and have no incentive to give a reference so they have blanket rules like will only verify dates of employments, etc.
asur fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 20:11
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You can still be liable for defamation, and the issue with a job is that that requires some sort of damage, and a job offer not being offered is definitely damage. So while it's still really hard to successfully bring a slander suit, lots of advice becomes "Don't say anything other than start and end dates" which is because you're already halfway there to a suit.
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May 20, 2022 20:15
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The larger companies I've worked for have usually had a service like The Work Number or something like it to deal with employee verification issues. HR and Managers were not allowed to verify employment over the phone. Peoplesoft also had a employment verification letter generator that would spit out a letter verifying employment dates, title, and salary that you could give to companies that needed it if necessary. They wanted to cover their rear end legally, so they were very strict about what they would do.
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May 20, 2022 21:38
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m0therfux0r posted:Those laws definitely do not exist in the US. Most companies encourage people to just give the bare minimum "yes, that person worked here" response, but it's not illegal for someone to go off script and talk poo poo. The one thing that is hard illegal is maintaining blacklists, but its very hard to prove; as they actually have to communicate they are not to be (re)hired under any circumstances to another company. (usa) 'm not an expert, but its something I had to look into recently, so if you guys know more, do say so.
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May 20, 2022 22:23
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Huh? That's a standard question in the list: is employee eligible for rehire Y/N? It's not illegal at all. You can get sued if you talk about an employee and say something that isn't correct that leads to a job offer being pulled. That's why most companies only give the basic position, length and eligible for rehire info. Some will give salary and I imagine my current employer would depending on who is asked, but if I get the call I've always said that's none of their business. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 22:40 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 22:36
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Just thanking you all and updating the thread after my long as gently caress negotiation process with "Big Tech Company XYZ." Thanks to everyone for not letting me balk and continuously drilling it into my head: "don't say the first number, wait them out." I was able to talk them up to an extra $20k total compensation per year, which put me right in line with the average for this position based on the salary data points I am able to see.
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May 21, 2022 00:50
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Eyyy congrats!
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May 21, 2022 01:56
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deported to Canada posted:Other way to go is to give them your current boss's details and *heavily* caveat that they are *not* to contact them unless they wish to make a serious offer. Tell them straight - most people would understand you not wanting to let your current employer know you are leaving. I'd have never thought to do this but I would consider it. As already said, it's definitely a power move. It probably wouldn't work since our stated company policy is to pass ALL reference requests to HR and they just confirm the bare details of the employment. But I have an excellent relationship with my manager and he knows all about the crap that happened and has made me a flight risk. If a top-notch employer turned up sniffing around they would know why and I think would respect the move, as much as (I think) it would bum them out. Bill Pullman fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 21, 2022 |
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May 21, 2022 19:58
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I had an interview the other day and something about it has just stuck out in my mind. I was asked during it why I'd be a good fit for the job (which is pretty standard, I think!), but it was worded a little strangely. To paraphrase a little, they asked me why, considering how competitive the position was and the strengths of the other applicants, they should consider me the right person for the position. Is that as much of a red flag as I think it is? I dunno, the phrasing and emphasis on other applicants as compared to myself just seemed a little odd to me. Another factor that might be affecting this is that I technically applied to the position a few days after its closing and still got an interview for the position with everybody I would be working with. I interpreted it as them knowing how that might look and trying to strengthen their position. Not sure if I'm looking in the right direction with that, though! I'm still pretty new to interviewing.
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May 22, 2022 19:56
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Dammerung posted:I had an interview the other day and something about it has just stuck out in my mind. I was asked during it why I'd be a good fit for the job (which is pretty standard, I think!), but it was worded a little strangely. To paraphrase a little, they asked me why, considering how competitive the position was and the strengths of the other applicants, they should consider me the right person for the position. Is that as much of a red flag as I think it is? I dunno, the phrasing and emphasis on other applicants as compared to myself just seemed a little odd to me. I don't have an actual answer for you, but it sounds to me like someone was just trying to fluff up the "why do you think you're the right candidate for the job" to sound smarter to themselves / convince themselves they added value to the process. Edit: at it's core, it's the same question: "Tell me why I should pick you". Thinking about it for a moment here, you're just giving them more stuff to put down on the paper for why they chose you; in effect, doing their job for them lol
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May 22, 2022 20:02
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It's a dumb way to say "tell us what you're good at and why"
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May 22, 2022 20:15
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So it's starting to feel like I am really just doing interviews for the sake of doing interviews. I have now cancelled two I know I really never want to pursue, but I still have a few pending for jobs that sound really meh, but could be well paid or something. How do you guys gauge when the sunken time is worth more than the experience? Really using a lot of my free time for these and it's starting to feel like a drag. Should I just cancel everything but the ones I think might be more interesting? Or stick it out for some more offers?
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May 22, 2022 20:30
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Zarin posted:I don't have an actual answer for you, but it sounds to me like someone was just trying to fluff up the "why do you think you're the right candidate for the job" to sound smarter to themselves / convince themselves they added value to the process. I guess I'm happy to help!  And that was a part of the answer I provided: I can't speak for the other applicants or your appraisal of them, but speaking for myself...cum jabbar posted:It's a dumb way to say "tell us what you're good at and why" It did seem pretty clumsy and dumb.
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May 22, 2022 20:35
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SEKCobra posted:So it's starting to feel like I am really just doing interviews for the sake of doing interviews. I have now cancelled two I know I really never want to pursue, but I still have a few pending for jobs that sound really meh, but could be well paid or something. How do you guys gauge when the sunken time is worth more than the experience?
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May 22, 2022 20:51
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SEKCobra posted:So it's starting to feel like I am really just doing interviews for the sake of doing interviews. I have now cancelled two I know I really never want to pursue, but I still have a few pending for jobs that sound really meh, but could be well paid or something. How do you guys gauge when the sunken time is worth more than the experience? I'm not interested in changing jobs but I'm currently going through the motions with two suitors just to get a refresh on what else is out there since it's been >5 years since I've really looked. Who knows, maybe one of them will blow me away with an offer and make my choice that much harder.
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May 22, 2022 22:18
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Arquinsiel posted:If it's taking that much time and you don't feel like continuing after a phone screen then just decline to proceed. This. Canceling a process early is actually a normal thing if you’re senior enough to know what you like and what you don’t. As far as I’m concerned, if I don’t feel it after the first real non-recruiter interaction, I just end it and don’t look back. It’s the company’s job to sell you on the role at every stage so don’t feel bad if they failed at that.
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May 22, 2022 22:29
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SEKCobra posted:So it's starting to feel like I am really just doing interviews for the sake of doing interviews. I have now cancelled two I know I really never want to pursue, but I still have a few pending for jobs that sound really meh, but could be well paid or something. How do you guys gauge when the sunken time is worth more than the experience? Then it sounds like you are in the driving seat here and that's a good thing. So take a minute to appreciate that. You should already have an idea of what you want to accomplish with your job hunt (money/career etc.) so take the time to whittle it down to only applying for roles you want and don't burn all your holiday on interviews. If you are getting that many offers then your current market is lucrative so maybe refine your search further or set your terms/goals higher.
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May 23, 2022 00:47
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deported to Canada posted:Then it sounds like you are in the driving seat here and that's a good thing. So take a minute to appreciate that. Yeah I already gauged the market pretty well, I have a clear idea of where I'm at for money and also apparently people are ready to hire me as a team lead, but not really much more money in that. I think I have already found the best offer out of the first rounds I completed so far and have an offer in hand from them. It's not the best paid one, but also not that far off. It's not really that exciting, but it will be my next step if I don't decide on another offer that actually is better I think. But to see if something else is better, I still have to at least go to the first interviews, as the recuiters are all more or less useless. I have open: 1 meet and greet with the team for a totally meh position at a business ISP > I was gonna cancel this, because it was scheduled out of town, but as they moved it locally today I guess I'll go anyway if only for some insider information. 1 offer for a open plan office type deal, where I asked to maybe see the office before going further. This is the job with the most interesting future options (forensics), but that's a pretty strong "maybe someday" and they have pretty bad contractual terms. Pay is good, but it's a salaried position, which I really am trying to avoid. 4 or 5 first rounds for mostly boring MSP work, although 2 of them sound decent in regards to what I would be doing and associated responsibilities. The others all have more or less one red flag and are the ones where I really am questioning if I want to keep going, but I feel rude cancelling as I am technically a good fit and don't have a good excuse other than "gently caress you, don't like your terms too much already". Any one of these could offer me a lot more cash, I got some salary ranges from the recruiter on these and at least one of them goes very high even compared to the good offers I have gotten so far. I guess that's why I'm still on track to do these, cause I want to see if someone would offer me crazy money. Also got the recruiters to "make an exception" multiple times on not naming a number first for these, so I am definitely getting better at that.
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May 23, 2022 13:31
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I fail to understand what exactly is so wrong with a professionally veneered "gently caress you, I don't like your terms enough already." I mean if it's strictly for interview practice, which is very valuable in itself, by all means just play along then tell them "sorry but I've decided to go another direction" if they end up making an inadequate offer at the end. (But companies don't want to be used for interview practice, which is a secondary reason they so many of them want your salary requirements up front) But if you've just changed your mind and are burned out on interviews and don't want any more practice right now, just tell them "y'know what, nothing personal I'm talking to some other companies that are offering [whatever the dealbreaker is, remote work or hourly instead of salary or not a loving open plan office or whatever] and that's important to me so I think it's best if we just end things here." Being a Barely Professional rear end in a top hat is not as much of a problem as is commonly thought. It just encourages them to believe you must be a hot commodity in high demand, otherwise you wouldn't dare be such an rear end in a top hat about not wasting your valuable time!
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May 23, 2022 14:17
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Eric the Mauve posted:I fail to understand what exactly is so wrong with a professionally veneered "gently caress you, I don't like your terms enough already." You are probably right and I have already cancelled two second interview rounds yesterday, but for the places I haven't even had the first round with I kinda want to give them the benefit of the doubt of the recruiter just communicating those red flags wrong. IDK, I am way too nice probably. I have definitely started telling interviewers "online or bust" for first rounds now and I already sent back offers with a detailed list of poo poo that they can change or eat it. One place (salaried) offered me barely above the legal limit for salaried employment, so I told them I would never consider a salaried contract for that and at least they got the offer to somewhere sensible, now with an optional yearly bonus on top. Still terrible contract, but at least would be "good enough". But yeah, considering the bad contract I am just playing "fix everything or go away" with them. Still, the salaried jobs I am really only talking to to see where the level for that is at, but so far I've got almost the same cash in hand for non-salaried jobs without infinite hours, so gently caress them.
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May 23, 2022 14:51
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Eric the Mauve posted:
I completely agree, it's a fine balance between confidence and arrogance. Interviews are the same as dating; it's a chance for you both to get to know each other. You shouldn't be prepared to settle down and marry the first person that kisses you. Likewise if you phone is blowing up from all the hotties in your area looking to hook up then feel free to play the field and don't feel bad for taking a day off to rest with an ice pack.
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May 23, 2022 15:01
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It comes down to me being bad at saying no, one of the reasons I quit in search for a job that demands less bullshit. I appreciate all the replies and I have opted for a strict online-only policy for first talks from now on and will just end all pending interviews after the first stage if the red flags don't get resolved immediately, because you are absolutely right, I don't have to deal with the horse girls of my area when the totally sane normal girls are also waiting to talk to me.
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May 23, 2022 15:50
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Seen elsewhere...  
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May 24, 2022 21:16
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Yes, the lack of ping pong had me quit. If only my boss had asked me that question at my exit interview.
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May 25, 2022 02:10
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Score one more point for why exit interviews are useless
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May 25, 2022 04:30
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I have to do the exit interviews. I've yet to see the data used for a goddamn thing but also can't convince the brass that they are useless and to let me stop doing them. As for that quiz answer, that's a dumb loving training program. I wish I knew what it was so I could blast it publicly cause holy poo poo we get a bad enough rap as it is, I don't need colleagues out here being intentionally made stupid.
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May 25, 2022 06:23
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As a departing employee, what exactly are my incentives to say anything other than bland pleasantries in an exit interview? I don't work here any more, it's not my job to fix your company's broken culture, and anything sharp or negative I say might come back to bite me some day (unlikely, but possible). Just give me my final paycheck and let me hand over my security badge and laptop.
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May 25, 2022 06:32
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From an employee perspective I can only guess at a few edge case scenarios that would benefit you if you planned on boomeranging and coming back in a couple years, but even then it's way too much risk vs reward. It's an option for our departing employees and I have no idea why any of them choose to do it.
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May 25, 2022 06:43
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They think you might buy them lunch.
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May 25, 2022 10:04
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Arquinsiel posted:They think you might buy them lunch. Or maybe a ping pong game or two, it satisfies an incredibly deep yearning.
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May 25, 2022 13:46
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Parallelwoody posted:From an employee perspective I can only guess at a few edge case scenarios that would benefit you if you planned on boomeranging and coming back in a couple years, but even then it's way too much risk vs reward. It's an option for our departing employees and I have no idea why any of them choose to do it. There are advantages to leaving on good terms. I wouldn’t necessarily go out of my way and I’d certainly not be fully honest, but exit interviews are one way of leaving a good memory as you depart. It’s not about burning them on the way out or fixing their problems it’s just another opportunity for you to communicate your value, which they have lost out on. It’s not just boomerangs, lots of people move around in industries / regions and you often end up working with the same people in other companies. For example the partner I did an exit interview with when I left my last place is now a partner at my current place. Ultimately the exit interview was only a part of our relationship, and not doing it wouldn’t have made a major difference, but it wasn’t a negative. How you leave / how you get treated when you leave is actually important to people.
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May 25, 2022 13:55
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I think exit interviews only exist so HR can say "you didn't mention it during the interview so you can't sue me for it later".
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May 25, 2022 14:38
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At my old job at some point after my departure, my old manager, who I actually liked, threw what I said in my exit interview in the CEOs face, at which point he basically acted as if he hadn’t read it, which he probably didn’t. My old manager left soon after that because it was obviously a really badly run company.
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May 25, 2022 15:11
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I'm intending to remain steadfast in politely refusing any exit interviews as a matter of personal policy, regardless of leaving on good or bad terms. Makes it more fair. Now if I can just finally get that next offer and not have them squirm away when I try to negotiate.
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May 25, 2022 15:29
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I've seen across a couple companies big and small changes come out of exit interviews. If you don't care, fine, but it can absolutely make changes at a company, which is how industries get better. Don't burn anyone, but saying "I really liked it here but the compensation was 30% lower than market/the benefits were not competitive/I didn't have a good path to grow/etc". You shouldn't go in there aggressive or trying to air grievances, but real feedback is listened. At my current company, we changed health insurance and PTO based on exit interviews, and at my last company several compensation initiatives were done based on exit interviews.
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May 25, 2022 17:32
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Yeah I've seen change from exit interviews too. It's easy enough to say things in a professional or neutral way or just flat out numbers like pay bump of n% which tells the story
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May 25, 2022 17:36
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As long as you don't talk poo poo about specific individuals, or go in guns ablazin' about capitalism and its ills, you'll be fine.
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May 25, 2022 18:02
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gbut posted:As long as you don't talk poo poo about specific individuals, or go in guns ablazin' about capitalism and its ills, you'll be fine. Dangit! thwarted again!
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May 25, 2022 18:25
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I've never quit a company that has had a ping pong table.
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May 25, 2022 18:40
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