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bob dobbs is dead posted:'abaddon' was a borrowing from the hebrew 5 centuries before the lads at nottingham were born Yeah if we wanna get nitpicky, אבדון would be pronounced "ah-bah-DOHN" since Hebrew often stresses the last syllable.
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Jun 9, 2022 13:16
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If we want to get properly nitpicky that transliterates to "avddn" because Hebrew text doesn't represent vowel sounds as letters and uses diacritics instead, and ב is not the same as בּ . We really are languaging on easy-mode here in the anglosphere.
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Jun 9, 2022 13:26
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nah, all languages have an irresistible core of bullshit. hebrew has the gently caress-you-readerness of optional vowels but english's gently caress-you is orthography
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Jun 9, 2022 13:35
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My native language is written exactly as it is spoken, which occasionally trips me up when reading names in scifi/fantasy in English. Anytime English-speakers ask how to names should be pronounced in stories in English I become momentarily confused, until I remember that the same does not apply. Like, the way English speakers pronounce the word "hero", we would write it "hiirou" because that's what we hear. Another example, we'd write "colonel", as "köönol".
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Jun 9, 2022 16:40
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Warden posted:My native language is written exactly as it is spoken, which occasionally trips me up when reading names in scifi/fantasy in English. Anytime English-speakers ask how to names should be pronounced in stories in English I become momentarily confused, until I remember that the same does not apply. English is manageable as long as it just messes with vowel length and openness, and anyway there's going to be some accent around the world where your pronunciation is mostly right. The Welsh accent sounds a fair bit like Euro English at times (and yes, most Welsh people do have English as their first language). The 'gently caress you' moments are stuff like "iron" where you have to skip the "r" even though no other similar word works that way, e.g. "irony" doesn't. Or my favourite, the British version of "lieutenant" where you have to add a F out of absolutely motherfuckin' nowhere (it isn't even in the French word they stole!).
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Jun 9, 2022 17:23
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Everything I've heard from ESL speakers leads me to believe that learning to speak English is pretty easy but learning to read and write it is a nightmare. We have a few sounds that are weird (I think our "r" sound can also be found in Chinese languages and basically nowhere else) but they can be worked around if you don't mind having an accent. Our grammar is pretty straightforward with a few notable exceptions but our spelling, jfc. It's something native speakers struggle with so I can't even imagine non-native folks trying to hash out bullshit like "their, there, and they're".
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Jun 9, 2022 17:49
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FishFood posted:Everything I've heard from ESL speakers leads me to believe that learning to speak English is pretty easy but learning to read and write it is a nightmare. We have a few sounds that are weird (I think our "r" sound can also be found in Chinese languages and basically nowhere else) but they can be worked around if you don't mind having an accent. Our grammar is pretty straightforward with a few notable exceptions but our spelling, jfc. It's something native speakers struggle with so I can't even imagine non-native folks trying to hash out bullshit like "their, there, and they're". Mistakes that native speakers commonly make aren't necessarily hard for non-native speakers. "They're", "their" and "there" for instance was never a problem for me or any other non native speaker I know. What is hard largely depends on the languages you already are fluent in: Many Chinese speakers, for instance, will mix up "he" and "she" because in Mandarin it's pronounced the exact same. Another common one is things like bored vs boring. English pronunciation vs how things are spelled are completely out of whack too. Most people learning English will struggle with that (I personally used to say "character" with the "ch" sound of "check" for instance)
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Jun 9, 2022 18:23
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English also has a lot of weird “informal” rules that are actually ironclad. Like adjective order. Or ablaut reduplication. (Google that last one!)
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Jun 9, 2022 18:24
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NihilCredo posted:Or my favourite, the British version of "lieutenant" where you have to add a F out of absolutely motherfuckin' nowhere (it isn't even in the French word they stole!).  ) by rendering it as "leifteanant".a7m2 posted:Mistakes that native speakers commonly make aren't necessarily hard for non-native speakers. "They're", "their" and "there" for instance was never a problem for me or any other non native speaker I know. What is hard largely depends on the languages you already are fluent in: Many Chinese speakers, for instance, will mix up "he" and "she" because in Mandarin it's pronounced the exact same. Another common one is things like bored vs boring.
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Jun 9, 2022 18:33
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I am an ESL teacher, among other things, and one of my great joys has been Brits, especially older ones, trying to figure out my class background based on the way I speak without doing so overtly, and me messing with them by failing to play along. I have a slight, vague sort of accent, which can be recognized as non-native English speaker, but it is apparently close enough that they can't just help themselves trying to instinctively figure out where I fit in society, and when that fails, they try to ask subtle probing questions to find out.
Warden fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jun 9, 2022 |
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Jun 9, 2022 19:21
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NihilCredo posted:The 'gently caress you' moments are stuff like "iron" where you have to skip the "r" even though no other similar word works that way, e.g. "irony" doesn't. Or my favourite, the British version of "lieutenant" where you have to add a F out of absolutely motherfuckin' nowhere (it isn't even in the French word they stole!). The French lieutenants take command in lieu of a higher ranking officer. The English lieutenants are left in charge when the CO naffs off.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:46
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Iron and irony have way different etymologies though are both in the end indo European (English etymology is fun  )
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Jun 9, 2022 19:56
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Warden posted:I am an ESL teacher, among other things, and one of my great joys has been Brits, especially older ones, trying to figure out my class background based on the way I speak without doing so overtly, and me messing with them by failing to play along. I have a slight, vague sort of accent, which can be recognized as non-native English speaker, but it is apparently close enough that they can't just help themselves trying to instinctively figure out where I fit in society, and when that fails, they try to ask subtle probing questions to find out.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:59
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Arquinsiel posted:My accent is so mild that since moving to the UK one person has managed to identify me as being Irish. This has not included any of the other Irish people I have spoken to. At one of my old jobs a customer once asked if I was Irish. This was in in Ontario, where I was born and lived my entire life. I've never even been near Ireland
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Jun 9, 2022 20:20
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Apparently pretty common in smaller towns in Ontario. Newfoundland is more famous for it though.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:52
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English is a garbage language for garbage people Why are words with the same vowel structure pronounced differently????
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Jun 9, 2022 21:51
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Because gently caress you, that's why
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Jun 9, 2022 22:04
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every conquest, the language gets a little weirder. english speaking peeps have conquered the world. twice.
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Jun 9, 2022 22:10
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:English is a garbage language for garbage people Because English isn't one language. The grammatical base is Old English which is a Germanic language that the Anglo Saxons brought over. The Normans added a significant amount of vocabulary of Norman French into the mix. Then you add some Greek and Latin and you then get the bases of modern English. This is why pig is from Germanic roots while beef is from French/Romance roots Then when the first dictionaries were being written the stupid fuckers decided to standardise the spelling from the root language of the word instead of going with a sensible phonetic system. Then you add in a significant pronunciation drift just after the spellings were codified. This is why we have often have two, three, four or five ways to spell the same phoneme and a complete clusterfuck of grammar and rules. The worst example is that there is technically no correct plural of octopus, or there are three correct plurals. Plus before you Americans think you have a superior version of English, Americans ignored most of Webster's ideas to sort out English spellings and only kept a few like dropping the u.
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Jun 9, 2022 22:43
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Improbable Lobster posted:At one of my old jobs a customer once asked if I was Irish. This was in in Ontario, where I was born and lived my entire life. I've never even been near Ireland I was born and raised around Chicago and when I went to Ireland it was mind blowing to have multiple people tell me they couldn't understand my accent.
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Jun 9, 2022 22:55
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Foxtrot_13 posted:Because English isn't one language. The History Guy did a video recently about the various attempts to fix American English spelling, but just like the metric system Americans wouldn't have any of it.
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Jun 9, 2022 23:01
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Arquinsiel posted:If we want to get properly nitpicky that transliterates to "avddn" because Hebrew text doesn't represent vowel sounds as letters and uses diacritics instead, and ב is not the same as בּ . If you want to get even more nitpicky, Hebrew is often written without the vowels/nikkud and you just have to know them because just like in English - gently caress you that's why. Semitic languages are a nightmare for learners. (Source: me, a Jew and Hebrew reader)
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Jun 10, 2022 00:09
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Bucnasti posted:The History Guy did a video recently about the various attempts to fix American English spelling, but just like the metric system Americans wouldn't have any of it. I dont get where the idea we're scared of Metric came from. We use it all the time its just in addition to Imperial measurements. When you walk into a grocery store in the US milk is sold in gallons and soda is sold in litres. In school the rulers have an inches side and a centimeters side. Lots of expensive spices and illegal drugs are sold in grams as well.
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Jun 10, 2022 00:17
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AnEdgelord posted:I dont get where the idea we're scared of Metric came from. We use it all the time its just in addition to Imperial measurements. When you walk into a grocery store in the US milk is sold in gallons and soda is sold in litres. In school the rulers have an inches side and a centimeters side. Lots of expensive spices and illegal drugs are sold in grams as well. I always tell people that as an American I only speak English because instead of learning a second language we all have to learn two measuring systems.
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Jun 10, 2022 00:51
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Count Thrashula posted:If you want to get even more nitpicky, Hebrew is often written without the vowels/nikkud and you just have to know them because just like in English - gently caress you that's why. Semitic languages are a nightmare for learners. AnEdgelord posted:I dont get where the idea we're scared of Metric came from. We use it all the time its just in addition to Imperial measurements. When you walk into a grocery store in the US milk is sold in gallons and soda is sold in litres. In school the rulers have an inches side and a centimeters side. Lots of expensive spices and illegal drugs are sold in grams as well.
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Jun 10, 2022 01:25
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Yeah everything at the store usually has both American Freedom units and Metric on it, especially nutritional info. We'll get the odd label where serving size is listed in imperial but the rest of the details are in metric, too, because gently caress us, right?
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Jun 10, 2022 02:17
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As the old joke says, anyone who is learning english as a second language and doesn't completely lose it when they get to 'yacht' is a hero.
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Jun 10, 2022 03:51
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http://www.i18nguy.com/chaos.html
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Jun 10, 2022 03:54
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IshmaelZarkov posted:As the old joke says, anyone who is learning english as a second language and doesn't completely lose it when they get to 'yacht' is a hero. Personally I love that Pacific Ocean has C three times and they're all pronounced differently.
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Jun 10, 2022 06:23
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Inspector_666 posted:Personally I love that Pacific Ocean has C three times and they're all pronounced differently. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1291227/
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Jun 10, 2022 06:41
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chainchompz posted:Yeah everything at the store usually has both American Freedom units and Metric on it, especially nutritional info. We'll get the odd label where serving size is listed in imperial but the rest of the details are in metric, too, because gently caress us, right? In his latest attempt to shore up support in his crazier base Boris Jonson was bloviating about bringing the imperial system back last week. Almost certainally just stupid posturing, but FFS even suggesting it.
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Jun 10, 2022 09:12
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Foxtrot_13 posted:This is why we have often have two, three, four or five ways to spell the same phoneme and a complete clusterfuck of grammar and rules. The worst example is that there is technically no correct plural of octopus, or there are three correct plurals. What's the third one? I've got octopi and octopusses.
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Jun 10, 2022 14:08
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Syncopated posted:What's the third one? I've got octopi and octopusses. Octopodes. https://oceanconservancy.org/blog/2022/02/01/plural-octopus/
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Jun 10, 2022 14:13
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Syncopated posted:What's the third one? I've got octopi and octopusses. Octopodes.
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Jun 10, 2022 14:16
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octupli octuplae octupla
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Jun 10, 2022 15:24
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Octopodi
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Jun 10, 2022 19:25
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Jun 10, 2022 19:28
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Deptfordx posted:In his latest attempt to shore up support in his crazier base Boris Jonson was bloviating about bringing the imperial system back last week. That's insane. I would much rather measure things in metric like the majority of the world. There's no need for anyone to go back.
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Jun 10, 2022 20:56
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Getting into the later Gaunt's Ghosts books and missing the times when he had no love interests. It just looks like a dour man sleeping with his subordinates.
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Jun 12, 2022 05:42
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Which book are you on, by chance? Traitor General?
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Jun 12, 2022 07:43
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