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PhazonLink posted:Someday some fanfics and other dumb internet things will be ivory twoer grownup serious business topics of study. Once read an article about queer representation in Star Trek shipping in the seventies. And that was written at least 30 years ago.
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Jun 12, 2022 02:09
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i’m pretty sure there have studies about sherlock holmes fans. the original book, way back in the victorian era. apparently when he “died” in the books there were people doing poo poo like wearing mourning bands lol.
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Jun 12, 2022 13:22
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Sobatchja Morda posted:Once read an article about queer representation in Star Trek shipping in the seventies. And that was written at least 30 years ago. The term "slashfic" to refer to stories where a gay couple is shipped was invented for Trek. The first instances were Kirk/Spock.
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Jun 12, 2022 14:56
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Fanfiction, as a concept, is as old as copyright. And before that we just called it fiction.
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Jun 12, 2022 15:00
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Jedit posted:The term "slashfic" to refer to stories where a gay couple is shipped was invented for Trek. The first instances were Kirk/Spock. Huh, did not know that. I only knew Star Trek fanfic was also the birthplace of Mary Sue.
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Jun 12, 2022 15:01
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PhazonLink posted:Someday some fanfics and other dumb internet things will be ivory twoer grownup serious business topics of study. I once sat through an academic paper on the Omega verse at a law conference.
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Jun 12, 2022 15:51
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Plenty of the classics are full with dynamics that we'd consider fanfiction hallmarks, too. Lancelot from the Arthurian myth is basically one author's pet Original Character Do Not Steal, put in there to be basically the best knight in the world who is even more fated and noble than Arthur and also gets the girl. And of course Dante's Inferno was basically author's self-insert getting to hang out with his favourite idols from history while describing how his contemporary rivals will totally burn in hell.
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Jun 12, 2022 16:16
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Perestroika posted:Plenty of the classics are full with dynamics that we'd consider fanfiction hallmarks, too. Lancelot from the Arthurian myth is basically one author's pet Original Character Do Not Steal, put in there to be basically the best knight in the world who is even more fated and noble than Arthur and also gets the girl. And of course Dante's Inferno was basically author's self-insert getting to hang out with his favourite idols from history while describing how his contemporary rivals will totally burn in hell. yea people really need to understand that a poo poo ton of literature is indeed 'fanfic'. Just because it's not literally 'The Riddler Kisses Batman, A Book By Me' doesn't mean it's not fanfic.
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Jun 12, 2022 16:30
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you do not have to use the word fanfic
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Jun 12, 2022 17:01
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hawowanlawow posted:you do not have to use the word fanfic Dante's Inferno is biblical fanfic.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:22
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Perestroika posted:Plenty of the classics are full with dynamics that we'd consider fanfiction hallmarks, too. Lancelot from the Arthurian myth is basically one author's pet Original Character Do Not Steal, put in there to be basically the best knight in the world who is even more fated and noble than Arthur and also gets the girl. I find it very hard to take a claim that Lancelot was more noble than Arthur seriously when the girl he got was Arthur's wife. Galahad is the gentil parfait Knight, and not getting the girl is kind of his thing.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:27
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Samovar posted:Dante's Inferno is biblical fanfic. Paradise Lost was fanfic that's slowly been adopted into canon.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:32
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hawowanlawow posted:you do not have to use the word fanfic but they are literally fiction written by fans of (x) to include themselves/their characters/their ideas
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Jun 12, 2022 17:35
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Jedit posted:The term "slashfic" to refer to stories where a gay couple is shipped was invented for Trek. The first instances were Kirk/Spock. The official novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture has an aside written in-character as Kirk wondering why people think he'd hook up with someone who only has sex every seven years.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:36
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IIRC even after he was introduced Lancelot was a solid B-lister in the myths for a long time
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Jun 12, 2022 18:03
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Jedit posted:I find it very hard to take a claim that Lancelot was more noble than Arthur seriously when the girl he got was Arthur's wife. Galahad is the gentil parfait Knight, and not getting the girl is kind of his thing. That bit in particular is actually a pretty interesting example of how literary mores changed over time. Later writers were quite critical of their affair as Christianity had a greater influence on their writings and obviously adultery doesn't quite fly there. But for earlier writers it was a prime example of courtly love as it was in fashion at the time, which was all about mutual pining after an unattainable partner. It being adultery wouldn't have been considered morally wrong, as it was actually the very thing that made the affair all the more romantic and meaningful in the first place. The marriage between Arthur and Guinevere would've been thought of as just a practical matter, whereas the affair between Lancelot and Guinevere would've been thought of as genuinely romantic and literally ennobling.
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Jun 12, 2022 18:17
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Jedit posted:I find it very hard to take a claim that Lancelot was more noble than Arthur seriously when the girl he got was Arthur's wife. Unless whoever came up with him in the first place was the historical equivalent of all those people who talk about cucks and alphas and betas and whatnot. Or, to be fair, marrying somebody for politics at the demand of your family only to secretly sleep with someone you actually love/are attracted to was enough of a medieval thing I can see someone claiming an adulterer was noble with a straight face, it seems cheating was downright universally accepted among the powerful (powerful men, at least; women are just things to be seduced not seduce themselves). Though from what I've gathered from folks more familiar with Arthurian mythos, the whole thing seems to be fanfic the whole way down. Main thing sets up a great king with a court of the best knights in the world, come up with your own special knight and just stick him in the story having to go get his head cut off by a green man or whatever. Most Arthurian stuff even today does that exact same thing, Prince Valiant and the like are just following an ancient tradition. I suppose the Holy Grail quest stuff could have been people making the equivalent of an Avengers team up plot. Fanfic admittedly isn't quite a fair term though, there was no "canon" at the time these tales were conceived because you didn't generally have somebody writing it down; if it's just people telling stories, who would know when you make up your own and insert it into the framework? If people like the story, they start incorporating what you invented into their stories and so it gets spread. I expect there were several lame Knights of the Round Table who never made it into our knowledge because people thought they were boring/bad enough to never repeat the tales.
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Jun 12, 2022 18:32
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Jedit posted:I find it very hard to take a claim that Lancelot was more noble than Arthur seriously when the girl he got was Arthur's wife. Galahad is the gentil parfait Knight, and not getting the girl is kind of his thing. It is in fact moral and ethical to commit crimes against the unelected nobility.
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Jun 12, 2022 18:34
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Toshimo posted:It is in fact moral and ethical to commit crimes against the unelected nobility. Lancelot was a cop so let’s not get carried away here
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Jun 12, 2022 19:54
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christmas boots posted:Lancelot was a cop so let’s not get carried away here And also, adultery is not a crime.
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Jun 12, 2022 20:04
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I'm gonna let y'all finish but El Cid is the greatest knight of all time
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Jun 12, 2022 20:11
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hawowanlawow posted:I'm gonna let y'all finish but El Cid is the greatest knight of all time It's true
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Jun 12, 2022 20:17
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Galahad was a much later addition also - you see Malory's book try to sort of cover for this by making 'Galahad' Lancelot's original birth name and 'Lancelot' his confirmation name. He didn't get added into the stories until the Vulgate cycle in the 13th century. RUINING EVERYTHING.
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Jun 12, 2022 20:17
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Alhazred posted:And also, adultery is not a crime. Not in a lot of countries in the modern day, maybe. I’m just glad that we can recognize Lancelot as the toxic OC that he is
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Jun 12, 2022 20:17
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To add to Arthur/Galahad/Lancelot chat, I read TH White's lovely Sword in the Stone, as a wee child, then immediately moved on to his sequels, which are... difficult and painful for a little kid to read.
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Jun 12, 2022 20:20
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Museums around the world are just packed full of Biblical fanart. People pay to travel to see it.
Shiroc has a new favorite as of 21:05 on Jun 12, 2022 |
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Jun 12, 2022 21:01
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Pookah posted:To add to Arthur/Galahad/Lancelot chat, I read TH White's lovely Sword in the Stone, as a wee child, then immediately moved on to his sequels, which are... difficult and painful for a little kid to read. What happened in them?
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Jun 12, 2022 21:14
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One of the earliest known fanfiction/author disputes involved Don Quixote. After the original novel was published, there were a "sequel" from a different author. Cervantes was peeved enough by this that he sat down and wrote a proper followup (now just added as extra chapters on the end) 10 years after initial publication.
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Jun 12, 2022 21:17
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Shiroc posted:Museums around the world are just packed full of Biblical fanart. People pay to travel to see it. They’re more often full of depictions of the saints and the like, who aren’t in the Bible
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Jun 12, 2022 21:22
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MadDogMike posted:(powerful men, at least; women are just things to be seduced not seduce themselves). on the contrary, the medieval European view was that women were the seducers because women are massively lustful, their wild horniness constantly corrupting innocent men who would totally have been celibate if women weren't constantly demanding sex
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Jun 12, 2022 22:27
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thats still default idea today. well at least when some fundie fuckface or some other notable/important/powerful social figure gets caught.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:31
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Josef bugman posted:What happened in them? The same stuff that happens in La Morte D'Arthur. Incest, death, betrayal, misery, torment.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:43
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Just a bunch of medieval women being all "Yeah, your right, I was so jealous of your micro-husband, I just couldn't wait to have terrible sex with him just like you do. Seriously? After 10 years he learned nothing? That's all you got out of him?"
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Jun 12, 2022 22:43
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Also, courtly love is an interesting thing if seen from the woman's perspective. Here you are, in an arranged marriage with a king who's probably twice your age and always away. And then one day there is a strapping young lad who is super tough but also very sensitive in his approach to you, someone who adores you so much that they will do anything to prove it. If you take the first successful Arthurian romances that introduced courtly love into the mix, you see that writers like Chrétien de Troyes wrote mainly on commission for Queen Marie of France. So basically, once storytellers figured out that the women of court were by far their most important audience, you start getting stories about sensitive men who appreciate a woman, even though she is married to an uncaring husband.
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Jun 12, 2022 23:47
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The Bible Extended Universe
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Jun 13, 2022 00:09
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Alexander Hamilton posted:The Bible Extended Universe ah The Apocrypha
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Jun 13, 2022 00:11
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verbal enema posted:ah The Apocrypha and revelations.
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Jun 13, 2022 00:37
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Disney needs to buy the rights to the Bible and clear out all the cruft from the EU
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Jun 13, 2022 00:41
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"Gawrsh, Sora, how are we gonna cross the Red Sea without a boat?"
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Jun 13, 2022 00:56
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Mooseontheloose posted:and revelations. really? huh the more ya know
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Jun 13, 2022 01:04
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