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Gripweed posted:There should be no such thing as private defense attorneys. There should only be Public Defenders, everyone accused of a crime gets an attorney provided by the state. So everyone gets a bad defense on account of them all being overworked and underpaid?
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Jun 12, 2022 03:27
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In a world where even the rich have to use public defenders they wouldn't be overworked and underpaid anymore.
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Jun 12, 2022 03:38
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Gripweed posted:There should be no such thing as private defense attorneys. There should only be Public Defenders, everyone accused of a crime gets an attorney provided by the state. And also everything else.
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Jun 12, 2022 05:01
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Gripweed posted:There should be no such thing as private defense attorneys. There should only be Public Defenders, everyone accused of a crime gets an attorney provided by the state. So the state pays for offense and defense? Sounds like a conflict of interest 
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Jun 12, 2022 06:38
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Gripweed posted:There should be no such thing as private defense attorneys. There should only be Public Defenders, everyone accused of a crime gets an attorney provided by the state. Wouldn’t that just leave everyone with not as good, overworked lawyers who answer to a state that would much prefer that the prosecutor won?
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Jun 12, 2022 06:51
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thetoughestbean posted:Wouldn’t that just leave everyone with not as good, overworked lawyers who answer to a state that would much prefer that the prosecutor won? Instead of that only happening to the most vulnerable?
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Jun 12, 2022 06:54
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Captain Monkey posted:Instead of that only happening to the most vulnerable? Making things worse for everyone isn’t justice, it’s just spite
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Jun 12, 2022 06:55
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Ok then, every dollar spent on a private defense attorney, at least half the fee goes to the public defenders' office.
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Jun 12, 2022 07:31
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thetoughestbean posted:Making things worse for everyone isn’t justice, it’s just spite Making things worse for the rich is justice. But I suggest a compromise - the rich don't get lawyers, so the defense attorneys won't be overworked.
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Jun 12, 2022 07:32
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thetoughestbean posted:Making things worse for everyone isn’t justice, it’s just spite Are you actually arguing that the current state of things where guilt is often determined by whether you have money is ok? That any change that would make things more equitable, and thus worse for the rich is "spite"? Because that's one of the worst, most disgusting, takes in this thread for a while.
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Jun 12, 2022 07:41
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doverhog posted:Are you actually arguing that the current state of things where guilt is often determined by whether you have money is ok? That any change that would make things more equitable, and thus worse for the rich is "spite"? Goddamn that's an uncharitable read. Make everyone's representation as good as rich people get. Caufman posted:Ok then, every dollar spent on a private defense attorney, at least half the fee goes to the public defenders' office. I like this idea.
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Jun 12, 2022 08:09
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I'm not super pleased by it after having said it, because the notion that you have the right to a better outcome in a court of law by spending more money is still suuuper messed up and an indictment of the legal system.
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Jun 12, 2022 08:20
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thetoughestbean posted:Making things worse for everyone isn’t justice, it’s just spite When rich people have to suffer the consequences of a societal problem, it tends to get solved with a quickness.
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Jun 12, 2022 08:22
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doverhog posted:Are you actually arguing that the current state of things where guilt is often determined by whether you have money is ok? That any change that would make things more equitable, and thus worse for the rich is "spite"? No, I’m saying things should be better for everyone, not worse for everyone. Only having public defenders would be a huge jump towards authoritarianism. All it would do is reduce the choices available for middle and upper class citizens and create an even bigger strain on what public defenders we do have. People having the right to a private attorney is important. It’s important to have the ability to defend yourself legally not be totally in the hands of the state. And lawyers don’t just work for the richest of the rich; there’s a number of lawyers who aren’t public defenders who specialize in working for low-income people as well as the middle class Is the system as it is good? Not really. Should it be improved? Absolutely. Would getting rid of private attorneys help a single thing? Not in the slightest
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Jun 12, 2022 18:00
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PHUO: Authoritarianism is not a good descriptor of politics. It seems to mainly refer to "governments doing things I don't like" whereas something like Draconian at least has a better descriptive quality.
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Jun 12, 2022 18:05
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thetoughestbean posted:No, I’m saying things should be better for everyone, not worse for everyone. Tell me you've never interacted with a public defender without telling me you've never interacted with a public defender lmao
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Jun 12, 2022 18:08
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My understanding is that public defenders are actually quite good at what they do and have a lot of trial experience, they just don’t get nearly enough funding and have to stretch their resources really far. Also I recall a survey that suggested that they’re among the happiest lawyers. Not sure where the idea that PDs are “not as good at being lawyers” actually comes from
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Jun 12, 2022 18:14
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christmas boots posted:My understanding is that public defenders are actually quite good at what they do and have a lot of trial experience, they just don’t get nearly enough funding and have to stretch their resources really far. Also I recall a survey that suggested that they’re among the happiest lawyers. If: for poors then: bad
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Jun 12, 2022 18:26
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christmas boots posted:My understanding is that public defenders are actually quite good at what they do and have a lot of trial experience, they just don’t get nearly enough funding and have to stretch their resources really far. Also I recall a survey that suggested that they’re among the happiest lawyers. Oh, I have nothing but respect for public defenders, I just don’t think a) they should be the only option available and b) massively increasing their workload would be at all a good idea
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Jun 12, 2022 18:52
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I think we should get rid of private practices but increase the number of public defenders so they're not so overworked. Edit: I realize that's an extremely simplified idea but this is the Internet
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Jun 12, 2022 18:57
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I'm late to the Onion talk a few pages ago, but this is an interesting blog that looks at how the Onion has changed over the years: https://onion20.substack.com Related o(pi)nion-- I don't like Clickhole. I've enjoyed a few of the ClickVentures and a few articles like the one that's literally just the whole text of Moby-Dick, but in general I find their writing style annoying and too lolrandom monkey cheese.
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Jun 12, 2022 19:24
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Josef bugman posted:PHUO: Authoritarianism is not a good descriptor of politics. It seems to mainly refer to "governments doing things I don't like" whereas something like Draconian at least has a better descriptive quality. That's the fault of people using it wrong, not the term itself.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:47
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Perhaps a different approach might be to require that a lawyer serve as a public defender as a prerequisite to serving as a prosecutor or judge, or as a private defense attorney. Hopefully inspire some empathy. Provide school loan forebearance for as long as a lawyer remains a public defender. It seems like a simple enough idea that I’d assume there’s plenty of good arguments against it, but I suppose that’s why I’m not a lawyer!
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Jun 12, 2022 22:56
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Funny that the baseline arguments to defend a rich person take many times the time and money required to defend a poor person, for the same crime. The problem is the very basis of the law - there shouldn't even be space for technical arguments or procedural fuckery. Just straightforward facts and a moral judgement by a professional judge and a jury.
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Jun 12, 2022 23:20
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Related point - the idea of an elected judge is absolutely farcical
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Jun 12, 2022 23:21
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Strategic Tea posted:The problem is the very basis of the law - there shouldn't even be space for technical arguments or procedural fuckery. Just straightforward facts and a moral judgement by a professional judge and a jury. I don't know, there can be an awfully thin line between procedural technicalities and civil rights.
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Jun 13, 2022 00:58
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Gaius Marius posted:That's the fault of people using it wrong, not the term itself. If most people are using the term wrong, then they aren't using it wrong.
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Jun 13, 2022 02:55
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No that's dumb bud
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Jun 13, 2022 03:02
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at anything but the very fanciest restaurants table service is an inconvenience to customers and basically abusive to staff.
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Jun 13, 2022 03:23
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Gaius Marius posted:No that's dumb bud Did you know that "nice" used to mean correct or accurate? Not the lowest form of compliment. Meaning changes.
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Jun 13, 2022 06:04
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Yeah but when people say “authoritarian government” you know exactly what they mean
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Jun 13, 2022 06:38
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thetoughestbean posted:Yeah but when people say “authoritarian government” you know exactly what they mean Actually I don't. Most of the time it is applied to governments that are doing similar things to the government I live under. Sometimes that entails that other government doing things I think are good, c.f. Bolivia prosecuting the ex president who helped head massacres. It's a word that has no concrete meaning and, as such, is rather bad other than acting as a signal of what the user considers "bad". It's like using "administration" or "regime".
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Jun 13, 2022 06:51
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christmas boots posted:My understanding is that public defenders are actually quite good at what they do and have a lot of trial experience, they just don’t get nearly enough funding and have to stretch their resources really far. Also I recall a survey that suggested that they’re among the happiest lawyers. They get stretched thin and also the money is bad and public defenders usually have a ton of school debt. My oldest childhood friend is and DA and I lived with him when he used to be a public defender so I am blursed to know a bunch of lawyers and most of them were public defenders at one point and they were super serious about it and dedicated. Afaik the whole trope of public defenders being bumbling idiots is BS. It just boils down to them being given a huge stack of clients, while a rich person can just pay a lawyer a bunch of money to devote all of their time to them.
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Jun 13, 2022 07:01
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thetoughestbean posted:Yeah but when people say “authoritarian government” you know exactly what they mean requesting that you wear a mask while a plague is spreading
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Jun 13, 2022 07:02
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Byzantine posted:requesting that you wear a mask while a plague is spreading You know that they’re being hyperbolic and ridiculous, yes
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Jun 13, 2022 07:10
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When the "da da da da da da da da I'm loving it" jingle first appeared for McDonalds, I was like maybe eleven or twelve and I hated it. I forget what came before it, but this new one was terrible, and it was when I first started to become really cognizant of marketing. I remember thinking, Haha what a blunder, this is the worst marketing thing ever, and it's only going to be around for a little while and they're going to lose tons of money, Anyway, so, it's been like twenty something years, and I heard an ad for McDonalds on the
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Jun 13, 2022 07:37
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credburn posted:When the "da da da da da da da da I'm loving it" jingle first appeared for McDonalds, I was like maybe eleven or twelve and I hated it. I forget what came before it, but this new one was terrible, and it was when I first started to become really cognizant of marketing. I remember thinking, Haha what a blunder, this is the worst marketing thing ever, and it's only going to be around for a little while and they're going to lose tons of money, Anyway, so, it's been like twenty something years, and I heard an ad for McDonalds on the How do you feel about Jazz? Note: I’m not talking about the music
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Jun 13, 2022 07:43
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credburn posted:It's an awful collection of syllables, it's catchy but not in a pleasant way, I've never ever heard anyone say "I'm lovin' it" about anything and especially not McDonalds. https://youtu.be/wtglXEPUDUk
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Jun 13, 2022 08:32
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Jun 13, 2022 08:36
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FishBulbia posted:table service is an inconvenience to customers
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Jun 13, 2022 16:53
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