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some notes on my experience using music theory to write songs for the first time... firstly, it's not at all true that theory knowledge hinders creativity. for me it's the opposite: i have a broader palette to choose from. i drew up a chart of all the chords i might want to use for a song in a major key: The Pillars: I(maj7), IV(maj7), V(7) Secondary diatonic: ii(min7), iii(min7), vi(min7) Secondary dominant: II7, III7, VI7 Parallel / borrowed: bIII, iv, bVI, bVII notably, this allows you to harmonize with any chromatic note. tons of options. and that's without getting into diminished 7th or augmented chords, which give you even more to play with. melodic considerations: try not to use too many roots. keep the rhythm interesting and contrast it with the accompaniment. try to use 7ths, 9ths, and 13ths in the melody for flavor. whenever i listen back and find something a bit boring, stale, or too diatonic, i can either add a chromatic melody note, or harmonize non-diatonically. both help create more interest (but be careful using both, things can get off the rails) the puzzle of how to fit together different parts of a song is a great joy. it can also be frustrating. i hope to continue writing stuff even as this workshop ends and i no longer have deadlines the songs: https://vocaroo.com/1gCkog5Cqf2D, https://vocaroo.com/1htEAmhq78mg, https://vocaroo.com/17la3yp65vSg a.p. dent fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 12:59
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I don't have anything to add, just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading about your experience with the workshop.
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Jun 13, 2022 13:21
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a.p. dent posted:some notes on my experience using music theory to write songs for the first time... thanks for sharing the songs, and for giving us insight into your way of thinking about this stuff. Out of these, I liked Peppermint Tea (first one) the best. Your singing voice is very pretty, I would listen to it on purpose!
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Jun 14, 2022 14:51
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... there isn't actually a formalized music theory for drums, is there? I looked more online and even within the domain of classical music theory, I saw a lot of what boiled down to "just talk to a drummer/percussionist lol." I am reminded of the terrible teacher trope in manga where someone tried to teach something with "first you go 'wooooosh' and then 'crunch.'"
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Jun 14, 2022 18:39
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:... there isn't actually a formalized music theory for drums, is there? I looked more online and even within the domain of classical music theory, I saw a lot of what boiled down to "just talk to a drummer/percussionist lol." This could help- this book tries to figure out why certain rhythms are good and universal. It's very dense and modern notation looks like geomancy magick but with all things music, reading about it is different from sitting there behind a kit or DAW and programming rhythms for hundreds of hours and getting the feel. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CLZSUN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Jun 14, 2022 18:57
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IME drums are a very “gently caress it sounds good” part. And historically artists “borrow” drum patterns from other artists all the time, they’re not quite like a melody or something that’s more unique or nameable. These two videos are pretty much all I know about drums. https://youtu.be/voXkdxjyqRM https://youtu.be/FoMmVlAvjmM I haven’t watched these two videos, but they seem interesting. https://youtu.be/kT_kojcfIX8 https://youtu.be/TKodQQD9AmE Come up with a few patterns, do a small fill at the end of every 4 measures, do a big fill before you change drum patterns. Vary up the drum line over the course of the track by making stuff quieter or louder or more or less hectic, etc. Understand syncopation and anticipation+approach notes (both rhythmic and tonal) and what a groove is. That’s about all I know and (try to) do. Uhhh some other content I guess idk https://youtu.be/ItsMmqTOgKo Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 19:00
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:... there isn't actually a formalized music theory for drums, is there? I looked more online and even within the domain of classical music theory, I saw a lot of what boiled down to "just talk to a drummer/percussionist lol." I found the concepts this wikipedia article talks about very helpful for doing my own analysis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_rhythm_and_divisive_rhythm my goals were just to write better rave music though. At the time tresillo/clave rhythms were coming in vogue again. I'm still digesting, so apologies for vagueness, but I find a lot more concepts that relate to the contemporary rhythm vernacular in Indian classical & improv (i.e. ragas) theory than I do in European schools. NC Wyeth Death Cult posted:This could help- this book tries to figure out why certain rhythms are good and universal. It's very dense and modern notation looks like geomancy magick but with all things music, reading about it is different from sitting there behind a kit or DAW and programming rhythms for hundreds of hours and getting the feel. that looks sooooo dope
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Jun 15, 2022 00:26
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Well that's better than anything I was getting.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:36
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JamesKPolk posted:I found the concepts this wikipedia article talks about very helpful for doing my own analysis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_rhythm_and_divisive_rhythm Highly recommend reading it with a pad of graph paper lined at 4, 8, 12 and 16 from top to bottom, each square is an eighth note and mark it out every time you see a rhythm. By the end you have a massive library of world rhythms that you can then stack on top of one another. It's crazy easy to get lost in experimenting with it.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:56
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I've never bought a book for so much. Not even a college textbook. Boy that is some price. I am very tempted though
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Jun 15, 2022 02:16
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I see it listed new for something like $55 elsewhere. We'll see if my new credit card becomes Russian property.
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Jun 15, 2022 04:25
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Basic Poster posted:Hi friend. got the book yesterday and it's excellent. perfect for self-study, imo. starts at the absolute basics and has great exercises. the counterpoint material is so clearly presented, much better than Fux (unfair to judge a 17th century book but whatever). really looking forward to binging this
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Jun 15, 2022 13:21
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a.p. dent posted:got the book yesterday and it's excellent. perfect for self-study, imo. starts at the absolute basics and has great exercises. Really glad it seems to have suited your needs! Being mostly self taught (switched majors after sophomore year) I cannot express the personal joy I am getting from helping someone in this thread.
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Jun 15, 2022 18:12
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Basic Poster posted:Really glad it seems to have suited your needs! Being mostly self taught (switched majors after sophomore year) I cannot express the personal joy I am getting from helping someone in this thread. very much appreciate the recommendation. now i just need to figure out why the gently caress i can't get a 3rd species counterpoint in minor to work. parallel 5ths / 8ves are like cockroaches
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Jun 15, 2022 20:50
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a.p. dent posted:very much appreciate the recommendation. now i just need to figure out why the gently caress i can't get a 3rd species counterpoint in minor to work. parallel 5ths / 8ves are like cockroaches HTH.
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Jun 15, 2022 21:47
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a.p. dent posted:very much appreciate the recommendation. now i just need to figure out why the gently caress i can't get a 3rd species counterpoint in minor to work. parallel 5ths / 8ves are like cockroaches I guess the original book request wasn't yours, but glad it's helpful. Sorry, I'm not familiar with what you're trying to accomplish exactly. But unless you're writing classical pieces, common practice study is idk...exists for that but also mainly for the sake to justify the pedagogy for itself. It's definitely cool to think about chord progressions in terms of counter point (a bunch of individual melodies occuring at once that happen to work as a harmonic progression). But sometimes things sound bad because they just do. It might be less of you getting them to work and more of it just sounds bad. A lot of common practice sounds dumb as hell to me...but that's an individual thing. Like, everyone nearly in pop ignores the hell out of the half diminished in a diatonic 7th degree, and just puts it as a major or minor (, borrowed) but to my ears it's rad. Anytime I can blow a 4 and on a diminished, or put it between any two things a whole step apart, I love it. So what I'm saying is, if you don't like it, it's likely less that you're not making it work, but that it just sounds bad to you, which is a cool thing.
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Jun 16, 2022 07:30
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Basic Poster posted:I guess the original book request wasn't yours, but glad it's helpful. Sorry, I'm not familiar with what you're trying to accomplish exactly. But unless you're writing classical pieces, common practice study is idk...exists for that but also mainly for the sake to justify the pedagogy for itself. ah yeah, this makes sense - i was more talking about following the rules and not being able to avoid parallel 5ths and octaves no matter what i tried. i think i was being too restrictive with how i defined them, now i see that if there is an imperfect consonance between them it's allowed. doing counterpoint exercises, where you label each interval, is great training for recognizing intervals. after doing this for a while it became faster for me to visualize the staff when identifying an interval by note names, rather than counting the distance out
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Jun 16, 2022 13:31
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a.p. dent posted:ah yeah, this makes sense - i was more talking about following the rules and not being able to avoid parallel 5ths and octaves no matter what i tried. i think i was being too restrictive with how i defined them, now i see that if there is an imperfect consonance between them it's allowed. Jesus, you are tearing through that book.
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Jun 16, 2022 15:33
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I did harmony and counterpoint exams when I was younger where they'd provide a melody and you have to fill in a four voices, and with all the rules you could easily write yourself into a dead end where you're forced to break a rule, which sucks when you're halfway through that particular question and you have to waste time starting over or lose points for breaking a rule. Who the gently caress decided composition needs to be a timed exercise??
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Jun 16, 2022 16:15
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Basic Poster posted:Jesus, you are tearing through that book. i already did a bunch of counterpoint exercises from Fux, so i jumped right into it. third species was where i stopped before, it's making more sense now bltzn posted:I did harmony and counterpoint exams when I was younger where they'd provide a melody and you have to fill in a four voices, and with all the rules you could easily write yourself into a dead end where you're forced to break a rule, which sucks when you're halfway through that particular question and you have to waste time starting over or lose points for breaking a rule. Who the gently caress decided composition needs to be a timed exercise?? yeah, music theory classes can be really stressful in that way. i remember in my class, everybody constantly being on edge wondering if they'd get called on to identify the 7th chord quality he was playing or whatever. 4-voice counterpoint exam sounds hard as hell, though!
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Jun 16, 2022 16:53
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This is more of a techniques question, I guess. What exactly is going on around 1:40 here? https://youtu.be/ypuaJLHK_LQ?t=1m40s This is something I’ve seen a lot on guitar or bass, generally as part of a solo or fancy bassline. The notes flow freely one after another in almost a purposeful fashion, but I can’t figure out the pattern if there is one. They’re cool as poo poo and I wanna write good bass and solos, but idk what I’m doing most of the time so  Is this something that would be outright composed, or is it just flitting up and down a particular scale?
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Jun 21, 2022 14:41
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NC Wyeth Death Cult posted:This could help- this book tries to figure out why certain rhythms are good and universal. It's very dense and modern notation looks like geomancy magick but with all things music, reading about it is different from sitting there behind a kit or DAW and programming rhythms for hundreds of hours and getting the feel. I bought this book because rhythm is not my strong point and holy poo poo. Diagrams are exactly what I needed
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Jun 21, 2022 15:08
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Pollyanna posted:This is more of a techniques question, I guess. What exactly is going on around 1:40 here? it sounds to me like a repeating pattern moving up the scale, something like this (not the specific pattern being used in this song, just an example): (1st) C D E F E C (2nd) D E F G F D (3rd) E F G A G E etc. it's something you see a lot in scale pattern exercises. easier to see the pattern in notation (Am here): 
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Jun 21, 2022 16:29
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So it’s not some sorta complex pattern and it’s just going up and down??? drat, maybe I’m seeing complexity when it’s not actually there.  I think I’m psyching myself out…maybe I’ll experiment with arping up and down a scale and seeing what happens.One thing I do like about that particular example is the cool effect you get when the beginning of the scale doesn’t line up with the first beat in the measure. I forget if that’s called polymeter or polyrhythm. Edit: I think it has to do with the rhythm and which beats are accented. If the sixteenths of a measure are split into 6-6-4 with a kick at the beginning of each, a straight up traversal of the entire scale is less interesting and compelling than starting the scale over at each division, and it’s even weirder if the scale starts at 8-8 instead of 6-6-4. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 17:28
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a.p. dent posted:it sounds to me like a repeating pattern moving up the scale, something like this (not the specific pattern being used in this song, just an example): (1st) C D E F E C (2nd) D E F G F D (3rd) E F G A G E etc. it's something you see a lot in scale pattern exercises. easier to see the pattern in notation (Am here): I am probably not the correct person the weigh in here, but I hear a couple things. At the time stamp there is some call and response counter motion. The call starts with an ascending diatonic three note run that repeats and the response descends in the same fashion (both approach the same argent note. If it were say a G, then the first ascends by step to g and the second descends by step to a half step past G or whatever target note it actually is and overshoots it and immediately resolves back to it). It also sounds kind of maybe...Hungarian minor or even Phrygian. Also some of the runs are doing a sort of scale degree excercise as said where it's starting wherever (let's call it 1), going up by step three or four notes, and found the same but starting on 2 or m3...so, sort of model runs. Finally lots of hammer ones and pull offs which make it sound fancy and flourishy.
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Jun 21, 2022 19:00
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so i'm finally regularly writing full songs in chords and structure. which is great. now i'm trying to write vocal melodies to them, and i often have trouble with it sounding really cluttered -- trying to write a melody that sounds like a separate part to the chords, in the same range as a lot of them -- since i have a baritone/tenorish range, and i like a lot of really high up extensions usually. i was wondering how to get around this? i usually prefer the effect of the vocal melody being the highest thing in the harmony, nice and clear, extending chords underneath it. lately my strategy has just been to invert everything to hell, and get it as low as i can, but it really limits the possibilities harmonically, i find.
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Jun 27, 2022 18:32
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I got to the intervals part of the beginning of that music theory book and figured out I don't understand them correctly at all. I'm now using this to quiz myself: https://www.musictheory.net/exercises/interval and feeding myself some videos and stuff until I can more comfortably chew through them. I had looked ahead and it was spraying intervals around like candy so I am pretty sure I shouldn't move on until I can follow along easily.
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Jun 28, 2022 08:33
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I got to the intervals part of the beginning of that music theory book and figured out I don't understand them correctly at all. I'm now using this to quiz myself: this is a good instinct and you will want to know intervals cold. however, i'd caution against waiting too long to begin counterpoint exercises. the species exercises, where you're labeling every interval as you go, is the way i finally got good at recognizing intervals. once you understand the general theory i'd say you're good to move on.
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Jun 28, 2022 12:41
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I'm not sure what to do with that. Do you mean I should keep reading while just practicing interval recognition independently? Edit: Is there a place where I can enter a clef/key signature and an interval and have it shown to me? That might help me keep going if I can safely see what is going on (and probably just help me better recognize intervals anyways). Rocko Bonaparte fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 15:54
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I'm not sure what to do with that. Do you mean I should keep reading while just practicing interval recognition independently? here's one: https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/music-interval you're talking about the Stone book, right? are you doing the workbook exercises at the end of each chapter? as long as you can get through those, you should be totally fine continuing. don't worry if each one takes a long time, or you need to count the pitches by hand or with a keyboard nearby. it'll get faster as you keep doing it. keep reading, keep doing the exercises. interval recognition is something you practice during nearly every musical exercise, so you shouldn't need to drill it for long before moving onto other things.
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Jun 28, 2022 16:11
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Well, I decided to spend some money on some Berklee press books. Got their theory one and two books. What a grift. I mean they are not wrong but they feel like pamphlets and cover less than what's on Wikipedia. Very basic, childish stuff. Good for the fundamentals I guess but each chapter comes with a few example problems and a few ear training things you can get online but all in all... extremely boiler plate stuff Do not recommend
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Jun 28, 2022 18:35
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Some interval hell. Why is this m3 and not M3?
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Jun 29, 2022 08:42
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You're in the key of F (or D minor). The two notes indicated are therefore D natural and F natural. Those notes are three semitones apart. Three semitones is a minor third.
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Jun 29, 2022 09:32
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Yep, major and minor third are defined by their distance in semitones. Three semitones is a minor third, four semitones is a major third. Five semitones gets you the cool kids club of a perfect fourth (not assuming augmented or diminished). I most certainly did not double check myself against Wikipedia what are you talking about hahaha. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 10:27
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Some interval hell. Why is this m3 and not M3? What they said above but I highly recommend sitting down in front of a keyboard or have a picture of a keyboard open in front of you. It helps to visualize it until it gets internalized.
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Jun 29, 2022 13:11
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Some interval hell. Why is this m3 and not M3? everyone else is correct. i'll add that eventually, you'll be able to quickly derive most intervals based on the C major scale. in this example, i can see visually that it's a 3rd of some type because the notes are on adjacent lines. then i think "a third up from D - since i know that in C (no accidentals) the D chord is minor, and neither of these notes are altered. so it's a minor 3rd." sounds like a lot, but this all happens unconsciously after a while, and is faster than counting semitones.
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Jun 29, 2022 13:30
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Some interval hell. Why is this m3 and not M3? can you identify these intervals by ear? internalizing the sound of each interval is much more important than instead of learning to read them from a score. https://www.musictheory.net/exercises/ear-interval NC Wyeth Death Cult posted:What they said above but I highly recommend sitting down in front of a keyboard or have a picture of a keyboard open in front of you. It helps to visualize it until it gets internalized. i agree -- I'm getting the impression that the OP is trying to learn everything from books without making any connection to actual sound. Check out OP's post in the drum thread (emphasis mine): Rocko Bonaparte posted:I came here from a recommendation in the music theory thread. I'm looking for a book on general drum music theory from the perspective of composing music and without too much interest in actually learning to play the drums. When I was a lot younger, I'd play around with stuff in trackers and I was absolutely garbage when it came to drums. I'm simultaneously looking for general music theory stuff (got a recommendation already) but I don't expect that drums are covered in particular detail there. Is there anything that would particularly help me here? I'd like something with exercises that I could try out day-by-day in some MIDI-based editor. OP, the drummers ignored you because you needlessly expressed disinterest in learning to play percussion! Are you trying to take shortcuts to avoid learning to play an instrument or learning to sing? If that's the case, it's a recipe for disappointment. Making sounds and hearing sounds is primary, reading and writing is secondary! If you intend to make music in Impulse Tracker, then you should be experimenting with that while reading these books. If you're clicking around in there with your mouse to add notes, be aware that most musicians prefer to input notes with a MIDI keyboard.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:07
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I'm studying music theory because I'm interested in composition and am primarily messing around in software. I have a keyboard and a guitar to try some stuff but I am trying to improve understanding by sight. After the chapter in the Stone book on intervals, it starts flinging around intervals like candy, and I'd like to be able to grasp it at a glance from the book without having to always sound it out first. If it's really much faster to learn with the keyboard hooked up then yeah, I'll give it a shot tonight. I've been moving houses so that's been rough. After what everybody else posted earlier, I think my fundamental problem was the book only showed roots with C with a regular C scale so quality and size were linking in a very regular and fixed way. So I'd see the root and another note three above without any accidentals modifying it and just assume it was perfect/major--my own ears be damned. Regarding my question in the drum thread, I wanted to be able to compose a passable drum part without having to literally start drumming. I could see music theory books for specific instruments and genres, but when it came to drums, it was just all about feel. I ultimately got a recommendation in this thread, but it's a book being sent on the back of a slug so I haven't even received it yet.
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Jun 29, 2022 18:26
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I'm studying music theory because I'm interested in composition and am primarily messing around in software. I have a keyboard and a guitar to try some stuff but I am trying to improve understanding by sight. After the chapter in the Stone book on intervals, it starts flinging around intervals like candy, and I'd like to be able to grasp it at a glance from the book without having to always sound it out first. If it's really much faster to learn with the keyboard hooked up then yeah, I'll give it a shot tonight. I've been moving houses so that's been rough. you can totally learn theory disconnected from sound, but it won't help you compose, unfortunately. i agree with HA that being able to identify intervals and chords by sound is most important. that'll give you a library of different types of sounds that you can draw from as needed. if you do things by sight, you'll be able to write nice-sounding, non-dissonant music, but without knowing what it sounds like, you won't be able to build to something meaningful and coherent. of course there's nothing wrong with just messing around on the DAW to compose - in fact, it's probably a good idea to do! see what you like, stumble into cool sounding stuff. then as you learn theory later, you'll start learning the names of what sounds good to you. you may also quickly run into your limitations and that'll motivate you to learn more. Rocko Bonaparte posted:Regarding my question in the drum thread, I wanted to be able to compose a passable drum part without having to literally start drumming. I could see music theory books for specific instruments and genres, but when it came to drums, it was just all about feel. I ultimately got a recommendation in this thread, but it's a book being sent on the back of a slug so I haven't even received it yet. if you just want some standard patterns to work from, a drum method book will give you plenty of options. you'll just need to learn to convert from drum notation into your DAW - should be doable!
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Jun 29, 2022 19:37
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I'm studying music theory because I'm interested in composition and am primarily messing around in software. I have a keyboard and a guitar to try some stuff but I am trying to improve understanding by sight. After the chapter in the Stone book on intervals, it starts flinging around intervals like candy, and I'd like to be able to grasp it at a glance from the book without having to always sound it out first. If it's really much faster to learn with the keyboard hooked up then yeah, I'll give it a shot tonight. I've been moving houses so that's been rough. OK -- good luck with the move! Regarding the keyboard / guitar, it's crucial to hear the thing you are learning about. The books will give you names for the sounds, show you how to read/write them in a score, but if you only know the name / written representation without a strong association with the sound, it's hard to do something useful with your knowledge. I'm harping on this because I wanna help you avoid a pitfall I encountered in my journey: I was trying to learn about music theory as a beginner on guitar, and I was completely unable to integrate anything I thought I was learning. But after improving my guitar playing (especially learning where to find notes on the fretboard) I was able to play an example of whatever music theory concept I was learning. This made all the difference for me! For the narrow goal of writing better drum parts: instead of trying to figure out how to write something from scratch, maybe it would be more expedient to copy-paste a drum part from another MIDI file, and then play with adding notes, removing notes, moving things around? That way, you can experiment with various changes and see if it makes the drum part better or worse. After one or two good changes, you can legitimately call the new beat your own. Or just leave the drums alone and write the new music on top of it -- this is totally OK too.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:13
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