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This is reminding me of the pretty good miniseries from a year or two back, Devs, and the ultimate conclusion to it's storyline. A stereotypical steve jobs style rich techbro invents a quantum computer which, in an isolated system, can perfectly simulate the past, present, and future, seemingly proving determinism is the truth of reality. The system works flawlessly up to a certain point in the future where it stops being able to simulate or display anything. The techbro and the small handful of tech people who know about the system assume reality is going to end, but what actually happens is the protagonist of the series, after being confronted with the deterministic system and given a vision of the immediate future, just arbitrarily breaks with what they were predicted to do, and this one action shatters the deterministic model which prevents the machine from accurately simulating stuff anymore. It's kind of an overly pat resolution to the story (and I'm obviously skipping like 90% of the setting here) but it always tickled me that there's an implication that a bunch of techbros invented something which seemed to suggest life has no meaning, so they all started robotically doing exactly what the models of the future suggested they would, and the entire system lasts until one regular person experiences it and goes "actually, no, gently caress that"
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Jun 17, 2022 21:51
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I'm very angry at this series for endorsing full nihilism and hard determinism right after it had so clearly endorsed fascism under an ubermensch as the only correct way forward. Especially since this series has shown it only cares about the alpha male figures.
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Jun 17, 2022 22:24
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What a confusing and exhausting way to live it must be, assuming you're supposed to agree with everything any fictional character says.
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Jun 17, 2022 23:14
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I agree with every Demiurge.
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Jun 17, 2022 23:32
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There's only one character you're supposed to fully understand, sympathize and agree with
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Jun 17, 2022 23:49
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Kalli posted:There's only one character you're supposed to fully understand, sympathize and agree with I too want to ride/be a kickass motorcycle and beat the absolute dogshit out of people I don't like
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Jun 18, 2022 00:06
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empathizing more and more with the big tiddy space wizard, tbh. god she must find all of this profoundly tedious. no wonder she cherishes breakfasts in the garden.
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Jun 18, 2022 00:08
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demiurge & doomposter
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Jun 18, 2022 00:11
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"like i i have explained this, will explain am explaining this, an arbitrarily large number of times. there was a metaphor i used to use about a bird sharpening his beak in a mountain until i literally got sick of telling it around go i don't know infinity infinity trilliondy. nothing. please just can we get some loving breakfast, holy poo poo."
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Jun 18, 2022 00:11
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Kalli posted:There's only one character you're supposed to fully understand, sympathize and agree with ... I never realized it until just now, but she kinda looks like Allison. Except more red and spikey and missing half the flesh on her face.
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Jun 18, 2022 00:18
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Kalli posted:There's only one character you're supposed to fully understand, sympathize and agree with NGL I wish I could drop "I leave you to rot in your puerile existence" more often
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Jun 18, 2022 00:20
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Xand_Man posted:NGL I wish I could drop "I leave you to rot in your puerile existence" more often Agreed. I should start leaving my shift at work saying this to my coworkers, I'm sure it will go over well.
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Jun 18, 2022 00:25
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"...why did you save me?" "Oh! Uh... It's what I do."
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Jun 18, 2022 04:03
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CoolCab posted:"like i i have explained this, will explain am explaining this, an arbitrarily large number of times. there was a metaphor i used to use about a bird sharpening his beak in a mountain until i literally got sick of telling it around go i don't know infinity infinity trilliondy. nothing. please just can we get some loving breakfast, holy poo poo." this jadis is likely incorporeal and thus incapable of enjoying a good fried slice
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Jun 18, 2022 04:22
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blastron posted:"...why did you save me?" holy poo poo I actually understand what she meant there now
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Jun 18, 2022 04:38
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Oxxidation posted:this jadis is likely incorporeal and thus incapable of enjoying a good fried slice right, but the "confronts allison about the nature of her reality and crushes her spirit" section of her experience is tedious and a little cruel (you see, even fated, that she tries to avoid it simply to be polite. she of course can't avoid it any more than she can avoid anything, but she makes some token effort) and i don't think she really likes it all that much. to contrast, sitting in a garden even watching someone eat, comparatively very pleasant. if you have no real agency whatsoever then it seems better to focus on the positive, which seems like she mostly does. there are going to be a bunch of pleasant and much less pleasant experiences in your life, you will relive them over and over forever. better to look forward to the gardens than fear the consumption of reality, both are exactly equally fixed.
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Jun 18, 2022 04:53
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girl dick energy posted:What a confusing and exhausting way to live it must be, assuming you're supposed to agree with everything any fictional character says. No but this character is mean and bad and the author wrote the character so the author must be mean and bad.
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Jun 18, 2022 08:24
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7c Nickel posted:I guess I've run into too many stories that do this and then go, "This is deep right? Really makes you think?" Literally the entire point of the comic is about punching destiny and causality in the cock and you seriously think that it's going to wind up that no actually that's not how it works and change the entire message to be that everything is futile? Did you even read the comic or did you just start in the last five pages?
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Jun 18, 2022 13:36
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Mile'ionaha posted:No but this character is mean and bad and the author wrote the character so the author must be mean and bad. look tell you what we’ll explicitly show that the mean and bad character pays a consequence for their meanness and badness just like what happens in real life all the time
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Jun 18, 2022 13:39
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I think the common consent is that "Allison and company prove what Jadis is currently saying is somehow wrong". It could just be another flawed demiurge thing. However, she could be "wrong", but she might know it and is just bullshitting for results. There's a lot of reasons how and why, but an idea: It could be because Jadis knows this is what she has to do to get the outcome she has foreseen. I've seen that story before, so I doubt it. A more interesting idea than that: Jadis is pushing Alison's buttons to reignite her furious dumbassery to break the cycle into something she hasn't foreseen before, possibly with the knowledge that it could work but is likely to get more results from Allison's stubborn behavior if she pisses her off but doesn't make her motivations known. What happens after that she may not know but figure's it's worth a shot. Jadis has demonstrated some seemingly perfect recall of the past, but all we have is her word on her knowledge of an absolute predetermined future. A demiurge lie? In this story? As I've said before I can't read ahead and have no inside info, just some speculation and thoughts that likely from me are probably wrong. I fully expect something I wouldn't have thought of, which seems like an appropriate statement with what is currently at hand in the story.
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Jun 18, 2022 15:35
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OPAONI posted:I too want to ride/be a kickass motorcycle and beat the absolute dogshit out of people I don't like Buy a bike and start kickin' rear end, friend
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Jun 18, 2022 15:40
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When I saw this updated my playlist hit One. lol. lmao
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Jun 18, 2022 15:57
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Twenty Four posted:A more interesting idea than that: Jadis is pushing Alison's buttons to reignite her furious dumbassery to break the cycle into something she hasn't foreseen before, possibly with the knowledge that it could work but is likely to get more results from Allison's stubborn behavior if she pisses her off but doesn't make her motivations known. What happens after that she may not know but figure's it's worth a shot. Jadis has demonstrated some seemingly perfect recall of the past, but all we have is her word on her knowledge of an absolute predetermined future. A demiurge lie? In this story? jadis' omniscience means that she is literally incapable of having agency. she's an obstacle for allison to overcome, not a secret mentor. this is just mottom again but with allison at an even lower point
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Jun 18, 2022 16:03
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Oxxidation posted:jadis' omniscience means that she is literally incapable of having agency. she's an obstacle for allison to overcome, not a secret mentor. this is just mottom again but with allison at an even lower point If you want to get Quantum, the real problem could well be Jadis observing the timeline; The waveform collapses into the timeline as it is, because Jadis witnesses the timeline proceeding the way it does. Which makes the solution to finding a new path very simple; Destroy the machine.
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Jun 18, 2022 16:38
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Thundarr posted:Allison is 100% going to punch determinism in the nuts. The only real question is what the journey to that nut punch will be. Obviously with FACTS and LOGIC
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Jun 18, 2022 18:27
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OPAONI posted:I too want to ride/be a kickass motorcycle and beat the absolute dogshit out of people I don't like I can strongly recommend at least one of those things
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Jun 18, 2022 18:40
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Phy posted:I can strongly recommend at least one of those things
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Jun 18, 2022 19:02
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Carteret posted:holy poo poo I actually understand what she meant there now I kill the busdriver
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Jun 18, 2022 19:12
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I miss my pal Gog, I wish she'd come back and show Allison that life is worth living
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Jun 18, 2022 19:19
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girl dick energy posted:Yeah, being a motorcycle is awesome!  I did mean "ride"
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Jun 18, 2022 19:24
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Phy posted:
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Jun 18, 2022 19:28
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Oxxidation posted:jadis' omniscience means that she is literally incapable of having agency. she's an obstacle for allison to overcome, not a secret mentor. this is just mottom again but with allison at an even lower point Could be, and I think "another obstacle to overcome" sounds likely, but a large portion of the other characters have tried to "mentor" or at least give advice to Allison, or at minimum manipulate and sway her. That doesn't mean they had her or anyone else's best interests in mind at all, and more often than not didn't at least at some point in their relationships, even those that ended up being some form of "good" companions. The point is, Jadis lying about having complete omniscience whether it be for the better of all or just for her own agenda or something else entirely wouldn't be a huge surprise to me. My dumb idea and your statement aren't necessarily at odds with each other at all. Again, I don't claim to have anything figured out, just throwing out a probably incorrect speculation for the fun of it.
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Jun 18, 2022 19:46
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7c Nickel posted:This is dumb and falsifiable with a 5 second experiment. I'm genuinely curious; what is this experiment? Do you mean something in the comic's universe, or is there a real-world experiment that seemingly disproves determinism?
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Jun 18, 2022 23:09
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Hempuli posted:I'm genuinely curious; what is this experiment? Do you mean something in the comic's universe, or is there a real-world experiment that seemingly disproves determinism?
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Jun 18, 2022 23:21
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Remalle posted:I'm guessing something along the lines of "What am I going to say next?" and then replying with x when they tell you you're going to say y. You ask me what you're going to say next. I roll my eyes and tell you. You say something different in a vain attempt to spite me. I say it half a second before you, because I already knew you were going to say something else. I continue this for the next several things you say and stop only when you inevitably say the thing I told you you were going to say next. I have seen everything everyone has ever done and everything everyone will ever do. You cannot pull a "gotcha" on me, bitch. Shadowlyger fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jun 18, 2022 |
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Jun 18, 2022 23:56
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Neddy Seagoon posted:If you want to get Quantum, the real problem could well be Jadis observing the timeline; The waveform collapses into the timeline as it is, because Jadis witnesses the timeline proceeding the way it does. Which makes the solution to finding a new path very simple;
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Jun 19, 2022 00:38
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Has she tried updating her graphics card drivers to fix that
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Jun 19, 2022 00:56
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Shadowlyger posted:You ask me what you're going to say next. I roll my eyes and tell you. Plus, wasn't this literally the point of the segment we just had? She says "stop" seconds before Allison yells "stop". She dictates a bunch of incredibly minute movements right as they happen, so accurately and immediately they would be impossible through mere observation alone, while not looking at her. I'd say that all illustrates it pretty well.
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Jun 19, 2022 01:55
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Hempuli posted:I'm genuinely curious; what is this experiment? Do you mean something in the comic's universe, or is there a real-world experiment that seemingly disproves determinism? Yeah, if its anything other than asking what your going to do next and then doing the opposite I'd be interested in hearing about it. Nothing about Jadis's omniscience prevents her from giving an incorrect description of the future; in fact if her own view of it is correct than she might be obliged to do so in order to further causality. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jun 19, 2022 |
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Jun 19, 2022 02:11
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Vagabong posted:Yeah, if its anything other than asking what your going to do next and then doing the opposite I'd be interested in hearing about it. you're missing something here though. jadis doesn't have a view. she's not obliged. this is just what she does
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Jun 19, 2022 02:25
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