|
moths posted:But then again, with their means-test dividing the universe into warp-drive haves and have-nots, maybe the Federation's on the same liberal-not-left page as the Rebellion.
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 18:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 13:55 |
|
|
moths posted:IDK, out of all the injustices in this drat hobby "the pretend space fascists aren't hiring women" is like a comparative 0.03. Sure, but it's still notable that they are continuing to play the "it's impossible!"  drum even though a) it's increasingly dumb, b) the idea that this could be true in-setting implicitly accepts a lot of ugly real-world beliefs, and c) the parody would work better if it were not true.Like you describe it as not hiring women, but the whole point of that paragraph quoted isn't "they're too sexist to do this" but "it is impossible for them to do this." If they just said "the Imperium is sexist and racist, it's possible Eldar or women could be marines, maybe they'd even be better marines, but we never know because the Imperium is sexist and racist" that would require no change of behavior on their part, would drive home the Imperium being bad better, and wouldn't take on board nasty real-world beliefs as objective setting elements. To me that seems worth pointing out when they keep deciding to maintain that specific setting element.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 18:28
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:You'd think so but I'm pretty sure this kind of insane bullshit is the only reason they get out of bed. Loxbourne posted:To a real dyed-in-the-wool narcissist, it's the other way around. Having to pay money to such filthy lessers is the painful and exhausting bit. These scum think they're people and can actually talk to you like you were just another human being! THE ARROGANCE! You know come to think of it — I used to date someone who I’m pretty sure was a narcissist and this tracks. Three new hills to furiously die on every day, forever
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 19:15
|
|
|
moths posted:It was also written at a time when IRL women weren't allowed combat roles in the military. Plus it's Horus Heresy - they've gone above and beyond to show that every faction is the Bad Guys. True but apparently the purpose of the whole "no female space marines" is just capitalism, iirc someone from the founding days of GW said that people simply didn't buy any girls in power armor models, they sat on pegs for months and retailers didn't want to stock them, which makes sense. For the rest of ya'll, it's not really that it's so 'bad' that they aren't doing this, but it's more like, uh, you're giving a 'win' to the shittiest people in the fandom. Some fun examples:    Bonus: Someone telling Andy Chambers, who was the de facto Warhammer 40k guy for 14 straight years (and created Necromunda and Battlefleet Gothic) that he's not a true fan for criticizing his former employer. (He calls him a bint, which iirc is an insult for women, so I guess he assumes it's not overly possible for a man to think this kind of stuff is bad or something)  There's more, such as "stop talking about this, because I want new (pet faction) sculpts" and of course the classic, "If you think there SHOULD be female space marines, then YOU are the sexist, did you think about that? No you did not!" Obviously Satine and Jamison were certainly worse events, but people who approve/partake in their kind of behavior(loving over freelancers and abusing them) aren't cackling and enjoying validation from it. TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 20:36
|
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:True but apparently the purpose of the whole "no female space marines" is just capitalism, iirc someone from the founding days of GW said that people simply didn't buy any girls in power armor models, they sat on pegs for months and retailers didn't want to stock them, which makes sense. Why would they need different sculpts? Their bodies are all covered in power armor, most have helmets, and even with the helmet off, they all are either bald or have crew cuts, right? So unless you're doing some jawbone/phrenology poo poo with a magnifying glass, how would you know? You can literally just say "this one bald captain who is yelling? She is a woman. That one over there with the chainsword? Her, too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 21:09
|
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:Bonus: Someone telling Andy Chambers, who was the de facto Warhammer 40k guy for 14 straight years (and created Necromunda and Battlefleet Gothic) that he's not a true fan for criticizing his former employer. (He calls him a bint, which iirc is an insult for women, so I guess he assumes it's not overly possible for a man to think this kind of stuff is bad or something) The guy in the screenshot is called Andy Clark. Did he change his name while I wasn't paying attention? (Entirely possible, to be clear.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 21:18
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Why would they need different sculpts? Their bodies are all covered in power armor, most have helmets, and even with the helmet off, they all are either bald or have crew cuts, right? So unless you're doing some jawbone/phrenology poo poo with a magnifying glass, how would you know? Because power armor for girls has boob plate, dummy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 21:43
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Why would they need different sculpts? Their bodies are all covered in power armor, most have helmets, and even with the helmet off, they all are either bald or have crew cuts, right? So unless you're doing some jawbone/phrenology poo poo with a magnifying glass, how would you know? Not that I expect GW to ever go in this direction but, uh... nothing in that text actually says you can't have women as Space Marines. It just says that they have to be trans women who were AMAB.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 21:51
|
|
|
I agree that the lack of female Space Marines is a very low priority in terms of representation / making WH40K a less gross line, just because whoof, but I still find it really lovely and tiring. As a woman in this hobby, I'm still shocked and fatigued by how many games say "no, you can't make a character of your own gender, because Lore" or its lovely cousin, "you can make a character of your own gender, but Lore means that they have to be constantly struggling against sexism and defending their presence in the group." It sucks!
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 21:57
|
|
|
I suppose most folks already know this, too, but having two X chromosomes only makes you biologically female at birth most of the time, not always. Sex chromosomes are just more complicated than the simple XX=female XY=male thing people are taught in grade school. See: Swyer syndrome, de la Chapelle syndrome, intersex people... just to dip in your toes, the well is deep. The premise presented in the warhammer lore depends on the reader accepting the incorrect premise that human sex is both binary and deterministic based on a simple and easily-understood rule.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 22:31
|
|
|
That's certainly true, and more than that, it just doesn't make any sense that this massive series of surgeries where you're basically completely rebuilding the human body is dependent on a fairly minor biological subsystem. If it's hormonal, well, loading up an AFAB subject on testosterone is pretty minor compared to installing the poison spit glands and poo poo. If it's anatomical... why? What part of this rig needs to attach to the genitals?
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 22:45
|
|
|
The "no female space marines" thing is so dumb and is also really boring, GW is abandoning so many cool storytelling opportunities by keeping the old lore. I think my favorite treatment is to treat Space Marines as only being one gender but that gender is Space Marine. Before they're frankensteined they could be "male" or "female" but once they've gone through an artificial super-science puberty and heavy indoctrination they become something else and have little in common with men or women in broader Imperial society. You could then explore what that means, why this third gender is so explicitly masculine in the pretty clearly patriarchal Imperium, stuff like that. Instead it's just "you can't be a member of our flagship faction if you aren't a boy" which is so limiting and boring.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
If it's in setting propoganda why not let non-imperial factions make lady marines? Both chaos and non-chaos rebels just making bootleg space marines without any of the religiousity to it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 23:06
|
|
|
I'm not a big 40k guy, but didn't they recently introduce the Primaris, aka a itsy-bitsy bit of heresy but they were better at killing xenos so no one cared. Why wouldn't or couldn't this be the same sort of thing? I forgot, we are only allowed to make one change per decade that doesn't actively reinforce hurtful sterotypes about the gender binary from the loving Thatcher era.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 23:11
|
|
|
I thought in lore nobody else made space marines, Chaos are all the ancient actual betrayers dug up from the rift. Sisters of battle have titty power armor, but they're explicitly weaker units than space marines. But you're right, it's not like their setting isn't fluid and constantly tweaked for new stuff when GW wants to make changes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 23:13
|
|
|
Coolness Averted posted:I thought in lore nobody else made space marines, Chaos are all the ancient actual betrayers dug up from the rift. Sisters of battle have titty power armor, but they're explicitly weaker units than space marines. ETA potatocubed posted:The guy in the screenshot is called Andy Clark. Did he change his name while I wasn't paying attention? (Entirely possible, to be clear.) neaden fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 23:28
|
|
|
Why are the Space Marines not sucking and loving at a moment's provocation like a bag of loose iron shavings in a magnet factory.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 23:42
|
|
|
They literally just invented a new, better More Different type of Space Marine and it would have been the easiest thing in the world to say "yeah, and also Primaris can be women" and it would have been fine
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 23:47
|
|
|
Battle Brothers, is it gay to kiss under the light of a multi-melta?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 02:16
|
|
|
The thing about Only Boys Spess Murrines is that it adds nothing of value. You paid a writer for those words, that money could have been spent on rules for a new grenade or something. That page space could have been devoted to a picture of a funny squig. The only reason to make Space Marines all male is if you're going to dip back into the deep wells of homoeroticism from the original days of Rogue Trader.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 02:59
|
|
|
NGL, Space Marines being all male might be slightly less terrible if they were also all either ace or gay.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 03:18
|
|
|
Xelkelvos posted:NGL, Space Marines being all male might be slightly less terrible if they were also all either ace or gay. I think it's implied that they're asexual but it's never really made explicit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 03:26
|
|
|
FishFood posted:The "no female space marines" thing is so dumb and is also really boring, GW is abandoning so many cool storytelling opportunities by keeping the old lore. I think my favorite treatment is to treat Space Marines as only being one gender but that gender is Space Marine. Before they're frankensteined they could be "male" or "female" but once they've gone through an artificial super-science puberty and heavy indoctrination they become something else and have little in common with men or women in broader Imperial society. You could then explore what that means, why this third gender is so explicitly masculine in the pretty clearly patriarchal Imperium, stuff like that. Instead it's just "you can't be a member of our flagship faction if you aren't a boy" which is so limiting and boring. making all Space Marines technically trans is a great idea and might straight-up kill some chuds
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 03:28
|
|
|
all futa space marines (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 04:41
|
|
|
If GW did literally anything interesting with "all space marines have to be boys because of reasons" then maybe it might be worth overtly clinging to, but like everything else that's lovely for no reason they never actually do. Everything in 40K exists in a simultaneous state of "this is the immutable lore" and "it's just propaganda bro" depending on how you need to justify it this week.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 05:18
|
|
|
New revised printing upcoming:
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:16
|
|
|
Bellisarious Cawl: "So we need to double Primaris production or we'll lose Imperium Nihilus forever?" Roboute Guilliman: "Yes, that right. The predictions are dire." BC: "And the traitor legions are still out ?" RG: "drat right." BC: "You might still want to sit down for this next bit..."
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:55
|
|
|
Comrade Koba posted:New revised printing upcoming: If we all post this on twitter we can get it going viral
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:56
|
|
|
Jayne and Gabs are canon and modern 40k lore is a contemptible retcon  
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 07:01
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Jayne and Gabs are canon and modern 40k lore is a contemptible retcon Just like IRL, there are exactly twice as many pirates as women.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 07:19
|
|
|
Hmm I'm not sure "empire is sexist" explanation even works in the setting since we have female guard officers in mixed regiments, ship commanders, inquisitors and so on. So its just space marines that have this weird stipulation. But I'm happy in aos we are allowed to have girls and we don't have to play nazis
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 07:57
|
|
|
Yeah I love seeing all the Warhammer folks fielding their “female guard officers in mixed regiments” armies
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 08:15
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:Yeah I love seeing all the Warhammer folks fielding their “female guard officers in mixed regiments” armies I mean what are you arguing here? I'm talking fluff not minis - I'm aware model line is sasuage fest
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 08:40
|
|
|
You can’t separate the two, and in fact in your own post you don’t as you praise the play options in AoS. And uh, let’s not pretend that anything about how the 40k lore treats women is anything better than, well anything.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 08:58
|
|
|
It's actually incredibly consistent in 40k lore that the Imperium overall is egalitarian and women are frequently shown serving in the military and in positions of power, particularly Inquisitors oddly enough. Space Marine the game even has a female Guard officer by the highest ranking remaining on the planet and thus in charge by default. But yeah, the models have never really reflected this, despite doing so with the Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau. That said the lore also occasionally does some real yikes poo poo for shock value.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 09:32
|
|
|
Ultiville posted:If they just said "the Imperium is sexist and racist, it's possible Eldar or women could be marines, maybe they'd even be better marines, but we never know because the Imperium is sexist and racist" that would require no change of behavior on their part, would drive home the Imperium being bad better, and wouldn't take on board nasty real-world beliefs as objective setting elements. To me that seems worth pointing out when they keep deciding to maintain that specific setting element. GW's sexist or there would be female Imperial Guard AND Genestealer cult figures right the gently caress now. Currently we have 1 (future) General whose not out yet, and a commissar that costs as much as a platoon of WW2 28mm infantry. They have very carefully NOT show any female IG below general rank in the soon to be released range of IG figures, despite there being female guard in the books since the 90's. Space Marine's in universe I presume they would be refereed to by other factions as them/they because they are clearly not human anymore. What's really sexist is the chaos marine's being just as bad (if there are any chaos marine's who refer to themselves as they/her I have not heard of them), though Nurgle would be totally in character to be offended if you called them a they and not a he (being the abusive boyfriend from literal hell that Nurgle is).
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 09:58
|
|
|
"But those who tweets in accent would be very mad if we made female plastic minis  "
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 10:31
|
|
|
One of the things that FFG's 40K games were generally pretty good about was using the opportunity to commission plenty of art of female characters throughout, and I'm pretty sure Only War is one of the only sources of official illustrations of female guardsmen from various iconic regiments.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 11:03
|
|
|
Covermeinsunshine posted:Hmm I'm not sure "empire is sexist" explanation even works in the setting since we have female guard officers in mixed regiments, ship commanders, inquisitors and so on. So its just space marines that have this weird stipulation. I mean sure he calls himself the Father of Mankind, who created twenty demigod sons, and an all male bodyguard cadre. He relegated his most powerful psychic warrior women to a non-speaking order. His only trusted advisor is a man, and every protagonist voice in power is male. But since it never explicitly said that a core theme of Horus Heresy is toxic masculinity, it can't be. No character turns to the reader and says so. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 12:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 13:55 |
|
|
moths posted:I mean sure he calls himself the Father of Mankind, who created twenty demigod sons, and an all male bodyguard cadre. He relegated his most powerful psychic warrior women to a non-speaking order. His only trusted advisor is a man, and every protagonist voice in power is male. Yeah but I'm talking 40k here - there is no reason for Cawl to also follow big golden manbaby footsteps and not fix the mistake of excluding woman. I mean no female space marines and overall lack of female minis in empire range is just part of bigger problem with the setting as presented and gws lack of will to upset status quo. I'm not sure if this is corporate directive or is it on people writing the game (also might just be inertia) Covermeinsunshine fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jun 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 12:54
|
|