|
I know its a little late, but something worth quantifying in the discussion about war elephants is the amount of food elephants need, since its a different order of magnitude than horses or oxen. Elephants are really big. The ACOUP link Koramei linked states that on the high end, an elephant can eat around 300 kilograms of food in a day. This means that keeping a force of just 50 elephants supplied for a three month campaign requires bringing along up to 1,500 tons of elephant food. With pre-modern transportation equipment, that's an enormous demand that has to provide enormous benefits in order to justify it on purely military grounds.
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 04:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 14:17 |
|
|
Elephants: the F-35s of the ancient world.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 04:46
|
|
|
Elephants are another example of Sparta's general superiority. They were able defeat elephants on the field, but also lead them to victory. In terms of defeating elephants, Spartan reserves beat Pyrrhus and his pretender king; presumably the Epirote brought his elephants with him. In terms of leading elephants to victory, a small force of Spartans arrived in Carthage and saved the city; elephants formed an important part of the Spartan strategy. Of course, it is more complex than that. Pyrrhus never saw a campaign he couldn't lose, so perhaps Sparta was never in any real danger. On the other hand, in saving Carthage they defeated Rome in a major battle, which really does show that the old world, even in a late and degenerate state, was still superior to the new.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:08
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:Early firearms just aren't that useful against cavalry, especially against highly mobile targets like steppe nomads. They're heavy and inaccurate, and slow to reload. They're an anti-infantry weapon used for firing into dense formations and or at closer ranges. As a bit of a counter point, the first battle in the world between two gunpowder armies, Kaifeng 1232, was between two northern steppe societies, the Mongols and the Jurchen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:12
|
|
|
Benagain posted:What was that seige defense weapon that was basically a firework on the end of a pole? Something you could reliably give to conscripts and increase their effectiveness without getting too complicated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysorean_rockets and their more famous version once the British ripped them off, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congreve_rocket The Congreve rockets were the origin of "the rocket's red glare" in the Star Spangled Banner!  Reading about the tactics reminds me about Stalin's Organ during WW2, but I suppose the same principles applied.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:28
|
|
|
Parmenides posted:Elephants are another example of Sparta's general superiority. They were able defeat elephants on the field, but also lead them to victory. In terms of defeating elephants, Spartan reserves beat Pyrrhus and his pretender king; presumably the Epirote brought his elephants with him. In terms of leading elephants to victory, a small force of Spartans arrived in Carthage and saved the city; elephants formed an important part of the Spartan strategy. OK, who let  out of his shame cube?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 06:53
|
|
|
CrypticFox posted:I know its a little late, but something worth quantifying in the discussion about war elephants is the amount of food elephants need, since its a different order of magnitude than horses or oxen. Elephants are really big. The ACOUP link Koramei linked states that on the high end, an elephant can eat around 300 kilograms of food in a day. This means that keeping a force of just 50 elephants supplied for a three month campaign requires bringing along up to 1,500 tons of elephant food. With pre-modern transportation equipment, that's an enormous demand that has to provide enormous benefits in order to justify it on purely military grounds. no one brought anyone enough food for three months
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 10:48
|
|
|
I believe the modern euphemism is "supply foraging."
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 11:03
|
|
|
"Devolved arms-assisted resupply"
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 12:42
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/weilghost/status/1538258041316982785?s=21&t=oKV0_efnxhqnG9bslarXyA
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 13:33
|
|
|
Omnomnomnivore posted:https://twitter.com/weilghost/status/1538258041316982785?s=21&t=oKV0_efnxhqnG9bslarXyA I kind of hate how it checks out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 14:13
|
|
|
Omnomnomnivore posted:https://twitter.com/weilghost/status/1538258041316982785?s=21&t=oKV0_efnxhqnG9bslarXyA tag urself i'm egypt Strategic Tea posted:"Devolved arms-assisted resupply" Imagining the 8th-dimensional DoD powerpoint slide for "steal poo poo"
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 14:16
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:https://web.archive.org/web/20201112030837/https://www.americanjourneys.org/pdf/AJ-070.pdf
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 14:21
|
|
|
ChubbyChecker posted:no one brought anyone enough food for three months It was more just a way of showing how much food they would need for even a short campaign. You won't be carrying that all at once, but you'll still need to come up with that much food and move it to the elephants. However you slice it, it's a massive logistical burden.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 18:59
|
|
|
CrypticFox posted:It was more just a way of showing how much food they would need for even a short campaign. You won't be carrying that all at once, but you'll still need to come up with that much food and move it to the elephants. However you slice it, it's a massive logistical burden. elephants have legs and can move themselves to the food
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 19:57
|
|
|
ChubbyChecker posted:elephants have legs and can move themselves to the food 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:02
|
|
|
There wasn't enough forage for a horse cavalry army to feed itself on the move in most places, Roman records have specific listings for the rations they needed to bring to supply horses in their armies. If legionary logistics had to plan and supply horses with food I'm going to guess there wasn't enough forage around for elephants.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:06
|
|
|
This raises the question of how tf did forces with much worse logistics than Rome feed their elephants? Unrelated q: how did romans shave? Especially the lower class who wouldn't have a slave barber. It's Rome so if you told me it was Antonius's slaves down at the ole Greatus Clippicus and he bought ad space in the forum, yeah ok.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:08
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:This raises the question of how tf did forces with much worse logistics than Rome feed their elephants? the upper class has their beards plucked out by slaves. i do not know about lower class romans, but i imagine keeping a very close cropped beard would be a lot easier and cheaper than shaving back then, but i also would suspect it was not THAT hard to get razor sharp stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:16
|
|
|
It is worth noting that barbers have been around for thousands of years. Rome almost certainly has places where someone could pay to get shaved. Wealthy people had their beards plucked as a status symbol.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:46
|
|
|
ChubbyChecker posted:elephants have legs and can move themselves to the food War elephants as well as the big warhorses of settled societies that were strong enough to support armored soldiers need far, far more food than they can manage through grazing. This is actually another of the advantages steppe nomads had -- their style of warfare allowed them to use smaller horses that could support themselves entirely through grazing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:52
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:There wasn't enough forage for a horse cavalry army to feed itself on the move in most places, Roman records have specific listings for the rations they needed to bring to supply horses in their armies. If legionary logistics had to plan and supply horses with food I'm going to guess there wasn't enough forage around for elephants. Edgar Allen Ho posted:This raises the question of how tf did forces with much worse logistics than Rome feed their elephants? Elephants can eat a wider variety of plant material than horses, eg. shrubs, tree leaves, bark, roots, and smaller branches. No war elephant having army could have carried enough food for their elephants for any longer marches (unless they just had just a few elephants for show), and that's one of the reasons why they kept dying like flies. A certain percentage of horses die and tanks break for each mile, but the war elephants are much worse. Romans shaved with razors, and they were of different shapes. Diocletian's Price Edict has the price of a barber listed as max 2dc/client, and an untrained laborer earned 25dc plus upkeep a day. ChubbyChecker fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jun 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:54
|
|
|
eke out posted:may've been me This was it, thanks! Also interesting, thank you. 🙏
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:57
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:It is worth noting that barbers have been around for thousands of years. Rome almost certainly has places where someone could pay to get shaved. Wealthy people had their beards plucked as a status symbol. yeah i just was wondering about a commoner. i know razors existed and whatnot but i could see them being too expensive for their worth to people in the inuslae or something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 20:59
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:yeah i just was wondering about a commoner. i know razors existed and whatnot but i could see them being too expensive for their worth to people in the inuslae or something. All you need to shave is something sharp. People have been shaving for a long time with sharp bits of glass, rock, and metal. It isn't an exceptional thing. A quick googling indicates that there was a thriving barber industry in Rome, and there's no reason to think that it would be exclusive to the upper class.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
ancient people were not just using straight razors, they had scissors and other hair-care tools. i wouldn't be surprised if a roman barber's toolkit looked more or less identical to a modern one
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 21:07
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:ancient people were not just using straight razors, they had scissors and other hair-care tools. i wouldn't be surprised if a roman barber's toolkit looked more or less identical to a modern one their blades looked quite different
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 21:31
|
|
|
ChubbyChecker posted:their blades looked quite different
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 21:37
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Did they use bronze or iron? both, and even some of the bronze ones looked like the ones that are still used, but some looked more like knuckle dusters, or like letter J
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 21:41
|
|
|
Parmenides posted:Elephants are another example of Sparta's general superiority. They were able defeat elephants on the field, but also lead them to victory. In terms of defeating elephants, Spartan reserves beat Pyrrhus and his pretender king; presumably the Epirote brought his elephants with him. In terms of leading elephants to victory, a small force of Spartans arrived in Carthage and saved the city; elephants formed an important part of the Spartan strategy. My friend posted this yesterday and it seems too perfectly timed for me to not share it. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 22:24
|
|
|
Kaal posted:My friend posted this yesterday and it seems too perfectly timed for me to not share it. lmao hell yeah Mr. Nice! posted:All you need to shave is something sharp. People have been shaving for a long time with sharp bits of glass, rock, and metal. It isn't an exceptional thing. I am genuinely too scared to try and look up a video of somebody shaving with knapped flint. Wasn't able to find a Roman barber's kit from cursory grooming but was able to find an Egyptian one:  Kind of fun how the razor is also quite obviously similar to Egyptian axes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:17
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:This raises the question of how tf did forces with much worse logistics than Rome feed their elephants? Feeding elephants wasn't impossible, it's just a huge task. Armies were really good at foraging for food and animal fodder, and if an area hasn't been picked over by another army, coming up with 300 kg/day/elephant in fodder is a totally doable task. There's a big opportunity cost to doing this though. Roman rations gave each horse 7 kilograms a day of food, so for every elephant you decide to feed, that's 30-40 horses you didn't feed. Roman commanders generally decided that 30-40 horses were a better use of resources, but if you decide the elephant is a better bet and plan accordingly you can provide it with food.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:18
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:ancient people were not just using straight razors, they had scissors and other hair-care tools. i wouldn't be surprised if a roman barber's toolkit looked more or less identical to a modern one I realize that. I was just breaking the task down to its most basic component. There’s no reason to think “lack of sharp objects” kept barbers from being a thing. That was my point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:19
|
|
|
Tulip posted:lmao hell yeah I just looked and there are lots of people shaving with stone or obsidian on youtube. No need to be afraid to look!
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:21
|
|
|
Kaal posted:My friend posted this yesterday and it seems too perfectly timed for me to not share it. What the hell is Athens doing up there? They lost the war, they just wrote enough poo poo down to have a greater legacy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:47
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:What the hell is Athens doing up there? They lost the war, they just wrote enough poo poo down to have a greater legacy. and the macedonian empire existed for about five minutes but what are you gonna do
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:52
|
|
|
Yeah but Alexander was a GOAT so ya gotta put them in
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:54
|
|
|
And some Romans snuck in there somehow. But the larger point stands. Replace the Romans with the Baktrians, imo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2022 23:56
|
|
|
Athens is great right up until politics interferes with its war strategies. All they had to do was stay in the fort and troll the coastline. For loving that up I'm unable to think of them as that great.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 00:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 14:17 |
|
|
I feel like you could probably try to include Greece in there somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 00:41
|
|
