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negativeneil posted:At this point, I think the only all that and it still somehow ends with trump admin part 2 lol
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Jun 24, 2022 01:09
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Biden's got is to announce criminal indictments against Trump and everyone involved and explain to the nation that he will not be pursuing a second term because he doesn't want there to be a perception that he's trying to knock out his likely opponent in the general.
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negativeneil posted:At this point, I think the only That sounds like something you'd get in season five of the west wing. So it has a decent chance of happening
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Jun 24, 2022 01:19
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negativeneil posted:At this point, I think the only It’s okay mr sorkin this is a safe space.
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Jun 24, 2022 01:23
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So what is the over/under on consequences for this thing? Obviously in a perfect world everyone who touched it would be going down on treason, and in an okay world at least Trump would take the fall. Is there a useful idiot they're going to pin it on or are we in a more "nothing matters" kind of world?
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Jun 24, 2022 01:29
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Mendrian posted:So what is the over/under on consequences for this thing? 7 quote:Obviously in a perfect world everyone who touched it would be going down on treason, and in an okay world at least Trump would take the fall. Early days and I'm very skeptical this is going to result in any real consequences for anyone, but Eastman is pretty clearly going down if anyone does.
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Jun 24, 2022 01:32
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Oracle posted:yeah, I quoted that. However you're skipping the part about having to have two witnesses swear that it happened, in front of them, which you ain't gonna get, because anyone in that room to witness it was part of it and they aren't going to squeal on themselves, and they're all terrified of the Trumpstaffel coming to get them so much they all swear they'd vote for his treasonous rear end if he ran again, even as they detail his crimes under oath. Is it a requirement that 2 people from the inner circle act as witness or is it enough for subordinates to come forward?
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Jun 24, 2022 02:01
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I was fairly skeptical of the substantial consequences (beyond the 800 something people already charged in this, ofc), but interestingly doj appears to be coordinating some expansions of the investigation with the hearings. Eg they enforced a bunch of subpoenas (as in with fbi agents showing up at your house to take all of your electronics enforced) against a bunch of people involved in the white house efforts to overturn state elections. Both state officials and former white house people. That's a significant (and ostensibly new) direction for the doj's prosecution efforts. Also if you watched today's hearings, the DOJ appears pissed off on a level that I don't think has really been appreciated up to this point.
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Jun 24, 2022 02:20
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Jeffrey Clark conspired directly with Trump, Clark is one degree of separation away from the true target of this Seditious Conspiracy. Garland ordered these search warrants carried out. Reminder the GA GJ is supposed to announce intent to indict Trump by June 30th. So much movement on so many fronts, it's time to stop over-thinking this. Open your minds! (It's me, I am Merrick Garland's white knight, m'lady  )
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Jun 24, 2022 02:26
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Mendrian posted:So what is the over/under on consequences for this thing? What do you think over/under means?
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Jun 24, 2022 02:51
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Boris Galerkin posted:What do you think over/under means? I think it's an off the cuff and vaguely comedic phrase that's understood to mean "what are the odds" but hey man give me the Vegas definition if that's important.
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Jun 24, 2022 03:25
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Is it just me or does Rosen look like he aged a century in the last two years?
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Jun 24, 2022 03:57
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You might say that I’m a dreamer
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Jun 24, 2022 04:13
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Meatball posted:It can't be just trump. The GOP had a huge hand in this. This was discussed and planned. There were meetings. Charlie kirk was bragging about paying for busses to transport people, and so was ginni Thomas. Hitler went to jail tho?
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Jun 24, 2022 05:19
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Zwabu posted:Is it just me or does Rosen look like he aged a century in the last two years? Wait was that the same guy from the Mueller stuff?
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Jun 24, 2022 05:25
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Shageletic posted:Hitler went to jail tho? If we’re doing notes on that, maybe 5 years for high treason was a bit loo light of a sentence and it would’ve been better if he’d served a less paltry amount of what he got, just generally. If we’re taking suggestions for improvement before round two.
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Jun 24, 2022 05:34
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If there is one thing that I think is really, really bad it's that the media never ever made a concerted push to counter the big lie. It was allowed to spread and set. Too many people are invested in this, and Liz's little speech at the end of the hearing today sounded bad. "Hey. So I know this has been a lot but like pinky swear you all got scammed and it's gonna be hard to accept. Please don't commit mass acts of violence over the July 4th recess, ok?" I heard the words and realized how totally ineffectual they were. I don't have any feel-good kumbaya bullshit for that at all.
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Jun 24, 2022 06:30
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The people that aren't watching, that is the people than refuse to watch, that is the people that need to watch, they're either infants or insane. They won't understand anything except severe negative reinforcement.  (This message not brought to you by the American Psychiatric Association)
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Jun 24, 2022 06:41
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Trump did another "perfect phone call."
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Jun 24, 2022 06:44
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th3t00t posted:The "soldiers" are already squealing that they were following Trump's orders, and squealing as to the purpose of their mission. It has to be two witnesses to the same overt act. Some Schmucks saying “he told us to do x” don’t count unless they were both told the same thing at the same time, swear under oath in open court to it and the evidence backs it up. The problem is Trump told so many people so many different things in such a way as to allow them to infer what he meant without outright stating any such thing that that bar is going to be very high to meet. Now the whole “just lie and let me and the Republican Congress do the rest’ is pretty damning but I think only one person testified to it (Donoughue). We’ve heard a bit from Rosen (who was the one told it) but he didn’t mention that. I’m not sure who else was in that call the notes were from but one of them would also have to say yep that’s what he said (under oath) then evidence would have to prove that ‘leaving it up to potus and congress Rs’ meant ‘conspiracy to commit seditious whatever for the express purpose to overturn the election/stop the vote count/whatever.
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Jun 24, 2022 08:13
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Oracle, what about this: Rosen, Cippalone, Donahue, Steve whats-his-name, they are all in a meeting with Trump and Clark. Trump asks them what do I have to lose if I put Clark in charge of the DOJ so I can send this highly-illegal letter to GA in order to stay in power as part of my seditious conspiracy. Clark and Trump are co-conspirators. Cipallone and the DOJ guys are witnesses. What say you?
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Jun 24, 2022 08:34
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:Wait was that the same guy from the Mueller stuff? Ok so I thought the same thing like drat this guy aged RAPIDLY. As it turns out it's not the same guy. You're thinking of Rod Rosenstein. He's the DOJ guy that started the Mueller investigation.
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Jun 24, 2022 08:40
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Dr. Faustus posted:Oracle, what about this: I’d say the president needs to have the freedom to speak frankly to his legal advisors and throw up hypotheticals however ridiculous they may look in hindsight or else his power to make such decisions is greatly curtailed. Further he received and listened to the advice of said legal advisors. This would be the equivalent of your buddy calling you in with a brilliant idea to make money by having his buddy get the managers job at the local Starbucks so he can get free drinks. You tell him no dude, that’s illegal, and after arguing a bit concedes and doesn’t do it. Talking about dumb ideas isn’t a crime. Being an idiot holding office who has to be repeatedly told why his harebrained schemes are not going to work isn’t either, sadly.
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Jun 24, 2022 14:26
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Oracle posted:I’d say the president needs to have the freedom to speak frankly to his legal advisors and throw up hypotheticals however ridiculous they may look in hindsight or else his power to make such decisions is greatly curtailed. Further he received and listened to the advice of said legal advisors. This would be the equivalent of your buddy calling you in with a brilliant idea to make money by having his buddy get the managers job at the local Starbucks so he can get free drinks. You tell him no dude, that’s illegal, and after arguing a bit concedes and doesn’t do it. Documented evidence of Trump directly putting the arm on Georgia SoS to "find" him the votes he needs is a different category though. That's direct tampering with the election even if the guy resisted him. Attempted murder is still a crime.
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Jun 24, 2022 14:41
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Oracle posted:I’d say the president needs to have the freedom to speak frankly to his legal advisors and throw up hypotheticals Rosen, Clark and Donoghue at least were not 'his' legal advisors, though, or at least their jobs were not to represent Trump, despite what he thought.
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Jun 24, 2022 14:51
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I hadn't really thought of this before, but I think in Trump's idiot mind he somehow thought that actions (replacing someone with a crony for corrupt reasons, signing a legal document, etc) might get him in trouble, but just simple words or laziness (phone calls, speeches, sitting back and not calling the guard while gleefully enjoying the attack) would not. He's always bullshit his way through things before, insisted he didn't mean what he said, and your interpretation is wrong and unfair, he could just do it again. And he's only now beginning to understand that just his words alone could actually lead to real criminal liability.
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Jun 24, 2022 14:56
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Zwabu posted:Documented evidence of Trump directly putting the arm on Georgia SoS to "find" him the votes he needs is a different category though. That's direct tampering with the election even if the guy resisted him. Attempted murder is still a crime. Sure is. Its also at the state level. Which is good in that it means if he's convicted De Santis can't pardon him. Tayter Swift posted:Rosen, Clark and Donoghue at least were not 'his' legal advisors, though, or at least their jobs were not to represent Trump, despite what he thought.
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Jun 24, 2022 14:58
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Oracle posted:They 'serve at the pleasure of the president.' That just means he can fire them. That doesn't mean they need to do whatever he wants them to do
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Jun 24, 2022 15:01
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Riptor posted:That just means he can fire them. That doesn't mean they need to do whatever he wants them to do Sure doesn't. But it also means he can talk to them and ask legal advice on decisions he's about to make.
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Jun 24, 2022 21:45
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Rigel posted:I hadn't really thought of this before, but I think in Trump's idiot mind he somehow thought that actions (replacing someone with a crony for corrupt reasons, signing a legal document, etc) might get him in trouble, but just simple words or laziness (phone calls, speeches, sitting back and not calling the guard while gleefully enjoying the attack) would not. He's always bullshit his way through things before, insisted he didn't mean what he said, and your interpretation is wrong and unfair, he could just do it again. And he's only now beginning to understand that just his words alone could actually lead to real criminal liability. Yeah, that meeting Trump had with his Lawyers where he was basically pitching them various conspiracies and talking about replacing the AG and he's like "this might work, what do I have to lose?" He really was just throwing everything at the wall hoping something would stick. I swear Trump is the walking personification of every MBA I've ever met. Just a complete and total bullshit artist.
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Jun 25, 2022 05:31
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I believe he doesn't understand what the problem is. His whole life has been a series of arm twisting, kickbacks, and sleazy backroom deals. That's his world, and he thinks everything works that way.
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Jun 25, 2022 19:24
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Oracle posted:Sure doesn't. But it also means he can talk to them and ask legal advice on decisions he's about to make. Arguably he wasn’t acting as president during that meeting, he wasn’t engaged in presidential duties. He was acting as candidate Trump seeking re-election. “Can I send a letter I know is false, or have it be sent by someone I bribed with high office, so as to defraud the United States” is not a legitimate one of his duties. I believe Trump committed bribery when he offered Clark the job as AG in exchange for an illegal action. An action both Clark and Trump had been told by legal experts was fraudulent in pursuit of a political office he knew he was not entitled to. Well, bribery along with sedition. Also, Clark committed bribery again when he offered Rosen his own job in exchange for committing fraud against the United States. Murgos fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 03:02
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Murgos posted:Arguably he wasn’t acting as president during that meeting, he wasn’t engaged in presidential duties. He was acting as candidate Trump seeking re-election. One of the job duties of everyone in elected office is campaigning for reelection. Pretty sure that exact argument has been tried in court against Trump and failed already.
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Jun 26, 2022 07:41
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Look I will entertain the argument treason is too high a bar, but that is only because I accept Oracle's take on it until something more concrete comes along. I suspect it's not so simple, nor completely outside the realm of the possible. That is one thing. But let's not be totally stupid about this meeting with the civil division AAG, and the criminal division AAG and Deputy AAG. Ok? That meeting was nothing less than an illegal attempt to coerce main Justice to participate knowingly in an illegal scheme to overturn the results of a fair and valid election, and there is nothing innocent about it. It speaks directly to criminal intent on the part of the President and AAG Clark. Period, point-blank, do not pass go, do not waste breath on meaningless excuses or technicalities. The meeting was not checking to see if they could do it. Trump had already decided it, he spoke to Clark all day on the phone and before Rosen and Donahue and Cippilone showed up to the Oval to meet with Trump and Clark, somehow the WH operator started logging calls from Jeff Clark as "Acting Attorney General Jeff Clark." How tf did the WH operator learn mid-day to start logging Clark as AAG? At issue was the letter Clark and one of Eastman's attorney buddies wrote up from Justice to Georgia illegally telling them your election is fraudulent and you need to start investigating. That is very loving illegal, guys. When Rosen and Donahue refused to sign it, Trump tried to install Clark, he had actually decided to do it. That meeting was to install Clark as AAG, not ASK to. Rosen and Donahue and Cippilone managed to talk him out of it. The phrase "murder-suicide pact" came out of Cippilone. This was all part of the plot to cause riots so he could cite the Insurrection Act and use DOJ, DHS, or the military to seize voting machines. The letters to DOJ, DHS, and the Pentagon were written, but not sent. The Committee has the material facts of this evidence and DOJ will have all of it as well. The only point we were exploring was if any crimes rose to the level of Treason and could be prosecuted as such. It certainly is Seditious Conspiracy and obstruction of proceedings, Justice, and what ever other charges go with this crime. It was not a probe of technicalities for which Trump will get off scot-free, because the ship sailed on this poo poo when DOJ levied seditious conspiracy charges against Trump's Nazi para-military invasion groups. I have very little faith in anything at all but I am quite confident about that. This poo poo is going to be bigger than most people right now are willing to say. I'm just saying it sooner. The RNC assisted Trump in the fake electors scheme and that also includes all the fake electors themselves and everyone in their orbit who assisted them. Those are GOP state-level legislators and national figures in the GOP, my dudes. Hundreds of them, if you believe some reports. But don't forget about all the GOP who objected to counting votes. And the people who spoke at the Ellipse. And Ron Johnson bringing fake slates of electors to Pence on 1/6 but being warned off by Pence's CoS. Now that Roe is dead and contraception, sodomy laws, and gay marriage are on the choppnig block, and the GOP is champing at the bit to go after Plessy/Brown v. BoE it is truly a loving nightmare scenario. We have an openly rogue SCOTUS today. But SCOTUS are judges not the Executive. The Executive is going to handle this, and there are logical reasons why we haven't seen the good stuff yet. Investigations take time and the DOJ does not move until they have everything they need. If you're concerned do not be. Look at all the search warrants served last week in the swing states and with Clark himself. Those search warrants were approved by judges. It's plain as day. It's ok to acknowledge it. E: Remember, poo poo was this bad for Trump BEFORE we found out Jared Kushner invited a documentary filmmaker into the WH prior to J6. The reaction to that news dropping, was a collection of WH people saying, "What the gently caress is this?!" I doubt we're going to settle for "nevertheless." Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 09:24
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loling that there was an entire documentary crew filming crimes
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Jun 26, 2022 12:56
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:loling that there was an entire documentary crew filming crimes Lol, Trump was so confident that his coup would work that he wanted to film a movie of him being the big historic tough man for posterity.
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Jun 26, 2022 12:59
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Maybe he heard that Mein Kampf was written in prison and decided he could be more efficient (also film is certainly a more palpable form of medium than writing for big chudgus).
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Jun 26, 2022 13:40
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Rigel posted:Lol, Trump was so confident that his coup would work that he wanted to film a movie of him being the big historic tough man for posterity. If a propaganda movie says the election was stolen and Trump saved the country, it HAS to be true
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Jun 26, 2022 13:45
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Fuschia tude posted:One of the job duties of everyone in elected office is campaigning for reelection. Pretty sure that exact argument has been tried in court against Trump and failed already. Lol, no. Senators and congressmen are required to separate their campaign duties from official duties. No stumping on the floor of the senate. With some very specific exceptions for the president when speaking in public. Organizing and forwarding a seditious conspiracy doesn’t become legal because the President is doing it in the Oval Office. If anything that’s is own unique additional crime like malversation of public funds. Murgos fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 13:51
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The Ethics Office of the Executive branch is a shambling corpse that both Dem and Republican administrations have done their best job to neuter. Walter Schaub, who used to head it, is a great follow on Twitter and well worth following.
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Jun 26, 2022 14:00
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Dr. Faustus posted:Look I will entertain the argument treason is too high a bar, but that is only because I accept Oracle's take on it until something more concrete comes along. I suspect it's not so simple, nor completely outside the realm of the possible. That is one thing. Yeah this seems like unearned optimism and just Mueller Time redux to me.
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Jun 26, 2022 14:01
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