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Eiba posted:[reasonable stuff] "Huh. I'm not familiar with this poster, but I like their posts--they seem to have a good outlook on things. Wow, what a lovely avatar, though?! I wonder who they pissed off and in what thread? Maybe I'll check their post history or something..." Eiba posted:Also I like that I've made two posts in this lovely thread and gotten a gross avatar. Lovely folks around here. Literal lol. Welcome to CE!  Edit: Now there's a snipe. Guess I'm going away for six hours for low content or whatever, so just to add a bit, I 100% agree that "do something" involves both voting for the (somewhat crappy and inconsistent) folks who might actually feel like governing effectively from time to time while also engaging in direct and/or local action. They aren't mutually exclusive, and scorning "vote blue" because "it doesn't (and won't) matter" while pushing people to "take action" is silly and reductive. We're capable of doing multiple things at once. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) aas Bandit fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 18:40
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B B posted:As requested, the Dems are doing something: what are those signs that they're holding?
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Jun 24, 2022 18:41
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Herstory Begins Now posted:yelling about what certain individual dems are doing is kinda secondary to the core rot that is 100,000,000 conservative voters actively trying to enforce their will on the country Yep. It's pretty clearly just escapism from trying to recognize that some of the people they love and care about are loving monstrous pieces of poo poo. And the solution lies anywhere else but recognizing this and acting against their actual enemies. Even the worst shitlib is still better than any Republican on abortion, no matter if they are voters or legislators.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:42
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Yinlock posted:I think this is supposed to be some stirring call to nonviolence and trust in the system, but in practice it just looks like they're going "lalalalalalala i can't hear you" Apparently, they made a speech, read a poem, read testimony from women who got abortions, and sang the song as a prelude to a march on the Supreme Court. Neither of them are going to do anything, but at least it makes a little more sense that it was part of some planned gathering and not a spontaneous acapela practice. Herstory Begins Now posted:what are those signs that they're holding? Not sure who the women are, but they are pictures of women and they were saying "these people" should be choosing their healthcare decisions. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 18:42
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Eiba posted:It's frustrating to see dumb absolutism lead to counterproductive doomerism. The Democrats have failed. Voting for more Democrats is the only way to fix this. Both statements are true. It's not emotionally satisfying, and it's not easy, but it's obviously true. Has Pelosi campaigned for an anti-choice candidate? That's lovely. Have the Democrats failed to expand the supreme court because some of them think playing nice is more important than their policy goals? gently caress those guys. Is anything going to get better if the Democrats have even less power? No. Things will get significantly worse. The Democrats will not grow spines in adversity. They'll perfect their message, sure. They'll say exactly what we want them to say. But the next time they've got a tenuous grip in power, they'll be just as likely drop the ball again. How many Democrats are enough? and when is the last time the U.S. has seen a party with that kind majority? With all the institutional obstacles in the framework of our government, with voter suppression, with gerrymandering, how is this going to happen? "just get like 80 democrats in the senate" is not a realistic goal or strategy, its more of the same "VOTE!" bullshit that got us here. The GOP gives their voters what they want with narrow majorities all the loving time, they get what they want when they don't even have a majority sometimes. It such a pathetic idea "we just gotta give these losers more of our money and more of our votes, there is just no other way"
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Jun 24, 2022 18:43
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B B posted:As requested, the Dems are doing something: And I thought Labour in the UK was bad at PR. Holy smokes.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:43
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ImpAtom posted:To be 100% honest I'm not sure how this statement follows from what I said, I'm sorry. I'm not sure how we're supposed to actively build a stronger base of actual progressives, though. Again, the party leadership is pretty explicitly arrayed against it. When Pelosi and Hoyer and Clyburn either retire or die in office, it seems more likely to me that they'll just get replaced by folks like Hakeem Jeffries than Barbara Lee.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:45
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Josef bugman posted:They are asking people, to show a little bit of disdain for the democrats if they have lied to you, generic you here not your good self, repeatedly about their commitment to health and bodily autonomy. Getting Republicans in power to change their PoV is a losing proposition because they are fundamentally opposed to human dignity. It is hoped that the same may not be true of Democrats in power. Why do you think an old white conservatives gently caress can change if they have a D next to their name but not if they have an R. I'm not saying to lay off the Democrats. I'm saying that if you think one can be impacted then stop writing the entire other side off and giving them passes for their behavior Majorian posted:I'm not sure how we're supposed to actively build a stronger base of actual progressives, though. Again, the party leadership is pretty explicitly arrayed against it. When Pelosi and Hoyer and Clyburn either retire or die in office, it seems more likely to me that they'll just get replaced by folks like Hakeem Jeffries than Barbara Lee. It is a fight. But it it is one you keep fighting even after failures. Like poo poo takes time. If you want a playbook you look at today's horrible decision which was the result of nonstop terrible effort. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 18:48
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aas Bandit posted:"Huh. I'm not familiar with this poster, but I like their posts--they seem to have a good outlook on things. Wow, what a lovely avatar, though?! I wonder who they pissed off and in what thread? Maybe I'll check their post history or something..." I guess whoever bought this is gonna get a kick out of this, but I'm really not okay now. Like... I feel like such poo poo already and my attempt to say something productive to mitigate this feeling of terror and hopelessness was met with this, a minor thing in the grand scheme, but a very personal gently caress you to me. Thank you for this post because I'm like... having an actual breakdown right now and I'm not okay. I'm gonna have to bow out of this thread, so congrats to whoever bought this, you successfully bullied someone who disagreed with you out of this discussion. I wouldn't mind a probe for my mental health because I am not okay. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 24, 2022 18:48
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Orthanc6 posted:I mean you might be right but the forum is literally labelled "Debate and Discussion" and I imagine for a bunch of people here the idea is to discuss things to find solutions. Cause the alternatives are sticking our heads in the sand, or violence, neither of which are good. Defeatism and doomerism will constantly rear their heads because yeah, things suck and not everyone is in the mental state to resist despair. But those of us that can need to keep talking. Sure, sticking your head in the sand and ignoring reality won't help. On the flip side there's a strong tendency to label being realistic as doomerism. I'm guessing it stems from a desire to ignore some ugly truths. That is not a positive solution either. Gotta acknowledge reality to be able to work on improving it, otherwise all the work is useless. This sucks. It's not going to stop sucking. For decades. Maaaaaybe generations after us will see things get better. We, will not. If someone wants to fight to make that better reality happen then a clear eyed understanding of where that fighting needs to take place is absolutely crucial. I am of the opinion that it is not in the political arena. That game is rigged, the only possible outcomes are the ones that the people making the rules of that game want. So step outside of politics and go help someone. It's a much better use of time and effort, and hopefully when the poo poo winds blow in your direction they'll be there for you.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:49
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ImpAtom posted:If you want to know what I think is a path forward for the Democrats it involves actively building a stronger base of actual progressives, even if that is difficult. But unfortunately that takes time and hosed if I have any quicker solutions This is great - in theory - but here's the problem: in order to build a progressive base we need to establish what that base should be centered around. To shift it away from Roe for a moment, we've seen arguments break out in this thread in recent days regarding how the Police should be handled and the only thing that they've revealed is that there is no cohesive thought among anyone that might fall under a label of "progressive" can point to as a binding thread. Some that could claim the progressive label want to abolish the police entirely, others want to diversify the police, and yet others want to reallocate funds away from militarization and into things like "desclation" training and very vehemently cling to those beliefs. How are those reconciled? How are they brought together? To a police abolitionist, how is a "big tent" with police reformists any different than the current democrat party embracing and protecting anti-choice members? This process of internal establishment of what a progressive party would look like is often suppressed because of some weird narrative that this essential part of defining the progressive planks is seen as a sign of weakness, disorganization, and a lack of ability to accomplish anything due to infighting - how does a progressive movement combat this as well?
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Jun 24, 2022 18:50
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ImpAtom posted:"Why not focus on the people actually directly acting instead of literally anyone else" being met with "but the Democrats" is exactly what I loving mean. If you just default to 'well Republicans are evil' can't blame a scorpion for stinging' and instead are Iinterested in tearing down not the Denocratic establishments but people largely on the same page as you then you are doing what they want. Same thing goes for the people blaming third party voters or whatever. This is like saying we can't be angry at the Uvalde police for doing nothing because it was the shooter who shot all those kids. The democrats had the power to stop this and chose not to. They are complicit in stripping human rights from people and deserve every ounce of ire.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:52
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Lib and let die posted:This is great - in theory - but here's the problem: in order to build a progressive base we need to establish what that base should be centered around. To shift it away from Roe for a moment, we've seen arguments break out in this thread in recent days regarding how the Police should be handled and the only thing that they've revealed is that there is no cohesive thought among anyone that might fall under a label of "progressive" can point to as a binding thread. Some that could claim the progressive label want to abolish the police entirely, others want to diversify the police, and yet others want to reallocate funds away from militarization and into things like "desclation" training and very vehemently cling to those beliefs. How are those reconciled? How are they brought together? To a police abolitionist, how is a "big tent" with police reformists any different than the current democrat party embracing and protecting anti-choice members? That I don't have an answer for. I have no idea how you form unity without compromise and I dont know how you compromise on basic rights
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Jun 24, 2022 18:52
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Ciprian Maricon posted:How many Democrats are enough? and when is the last time the U.S. has seen a party with that kind majority? With all the institutional obstacles in the framework of our government, with voter suppression, with gerrymandering, how is this going to happen? "just get like 80 democrats in the senate" is not a realistic goal or strategy, its more of the same "VOTE!" bullshit that got us here. The GOP gives their voters what they want with narrow majorities all the loving time, they get what they want when they don't even have a majority sometimes. It such a pathetic idea "we just gotta give these losers more of our money and more of our votes, there is just no other way" This is an unprecedented year for most of the planet. The Dems were spineless and short-sighted thinking that the GOP wouldn't actually pull this trigger, probably because it did take quite a long time for the GOP to do it despite their constant screeching about doing it all the time. Quite similar to how so many politicians didn't think Putin would pull his actual trigger, despite him also making it obvious he wanted to for years. The Midterms are now I believe the last chance for things to be resolved through legislation. Protests *might* fix this, but they would have to be no-joke on par with the Civil Rights movement to have a chance to do so. And even if most people are committed to doing that peacefully, that will get very messy, people will get hurt. Which is why so many people insist on voting for the only viable opposition party, despite their spinelessness up until this point. Alternative solutions exist, but they are equally if not more difficult, and decidedly more dangerous for everyone involved.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:53
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Susan Collins is giving an interview on CNN and said she has "been crying" because she was "blindsided" by this decision and doesn't understand how not only one nominee could lie to her, but three different nominees all lied to her. She said she knew they were all conservative, but that being conservative means being cautious, respecting tradition, and not making radical changes. She also says that they all looked her in the eyes and she felt they were honest men and women of integrity and doesn't know what happened. She says she "understands" if some people lose confidence in the Supreme Court, because she has lost some confidence, but she will spend all day trying to figure out how this happened. 
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Jun 24, 2022 18:57
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ImpAtom posted:That I don't have an answer for. I have no idea how you form unity without compromise and I dont know how you compromise on basic rights You don't compromise on basic rights, ever.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:59
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Huh, just saw this elsewhere: https://twitter.com/LakotaMan1/status/1540361998424150017 What is the likelihood of this happening?
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Jun 24, 2022 19:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Susan Collins is giving an interview on CNN and said she has "been crying" because she was "blindsided" by this decision and doesn't understand how not only one nominee could lie to her, but three different nominees all lied to her. Get hosed Collins, you knew exactly what was going to happen. Unless you're going to call for removing them from the bench or expanding the court, you're not feeling sorry at all.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:01
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Majorian posted:I'm not sure how we're supposed to actively build a stronger base of actual progressives, though. Again, the party leadership is pretty explicitly arrayed against it. When Pelosi and Hoyer and Clyburn either retire or die in office, it seems more likely to me that they'll just get replaced by folks like Hakeem Jeffries than Barbara Lee. The solution seems pretty obvious: build a strong on-the-ground political movement in favor of progressive politics. If progressives can't even win seats outside of overwhelmingly blue districts, then we have no choice but to build more support. The party leadership doesn't have that much power over the process. They can do things like draw district boundaries, but for the most part their actual ability to intervene in elections is quite limited. They can direct funding to a candidate, but money is not the single decisive factor in an election; there's plenty of cases where a charismatic and popular candidate beats a big-spending billionaire no one likes. And as for things like endorsements and media support, if the people still trust the media and the party leadership more than they trust progressives, then it's obvious progressives haven't won over enough support.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:03
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Shooting Blanks posted:Huh, just saw this elsewhere: It'd be interesting to see how Gorsuch lands on killing it but it'd ultimately be 5-4 at best and doesn't address any of the issues present in the "just travel to a blue state to get one" argument/harm reduction. Whether it happens or not, hard to say, I don't doubt that there's plenty that wouldn't want anything to do with it out of either community conservatism or not wanting to make themselves a target
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Jun 24, 2022 19:03
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Randalor posted:Get hosed Collins, you knew exactly what was going to happen. Unless you're going to call for removing them from the bench or expanding the court, you're not feeling sorry at all. She's going to find the real killer. You can buy her new book that details how she plans to find those truly responsible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It
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Jun 24, 2022 19:04
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ImpAtom posted:Why do you think an old white conservatives gently caress can change if they have a D next to their name but not if they have an R. I must have misread your point then, because what you seemed to be saying was "why are you blaming the Dems for this event!" as opposed to "why are you blaming Dems entirely and no one else" The latter is something I do not think anyone is doing. Also I believe that it's more possible, though I am by no means an expert, to utilise shame against Democratic politicians. Such is not truly possible from the GOP.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:05
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Randalor posted:Get hosed Collins, you knew exactly what was going to happen. Unless you're going to call for removing them from the bench or expanding the court, you're not feeling sorry at all. I can actually 100% believe that Collins and also a ton of Democrats were truthfully blindsided by this happening, because I truly believe that a lot of them were morons who utterly convinced that it was all brinksmanship and surely no one would ever actually cross that line! I feel nothing but contempt for them, mind you, and they're absolutely not going to do anything substantive about it, but I can believe them getting caught off guard.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:06
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Main Paineframe posted:The solution seems pretty obvious: build a strong on-the-ground political movement in favor of progressive politics. If progressives can't even win seats outside of overwhelmingly blue districts, then we have no choice but to build more support. It's going to be tricky going to convince people to bust their rear end for months on end to build something that only gets immediately destroyed by Dem leadership as soon as they can for a third time in 15 years because they cannot be dissuaded from viewing such things as an existential threat. I'm all in favor of it but it shouldn't ever rely on input from either party nor should it ever give either any degree of power or influence over itself. Also things like recognition that the wider media will never be on its side and agitating against trust in it as a means to prevent it being used a wedge among the coalition.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:07
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Shooting Blanks posted:Huh, just saw this elsewhere: Gorsuch is the one conservative who bizarrely fights for native american rights, but at best he'd get outvoted 5-4.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:07
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ImpAtom posted:It is a fight. But it it is one you keep fighting even after failures. Like poo poo takes time. If you want a playbook you look at today's horrible decision which was the result of nonstop terrible effort. I mean, I admire your conviction, but it really seems to me like that's a non-starter, especially with likely Republican dominance over the federal government in the not-too-distant future. The American electoral system is currently not geared towards enacting progressive change, even if it's supported by a majority of voters. I don't think there's much of a chance that it will ever be geared towards that again. So the long fight that we keep fighting even after failures needs to be overturning the system and replacing it with something that is actually democratic and accountable to the popular will.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:08
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Randalor posted:Get hosed Collins, you knew exactly what was going to happen. Unless you're going to call for removing them from the bench or expanding the court, you're not feeling sorry at all. Is she one of the people from the Invention of Lying? Like, did she actually not know that people could just lie? What is going on in her head?
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Jun 24, 2022 19:08
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ImpAtom posted:Why do you think an old white conservatives gently caress can change if they have a D next to their name but not if they have an R. I’m honestly not talking about the less than a few thousand GOP representatives, senators, and other figureheads. I’m not even talking about the less than a few thousand of the Dems, either. I’m talking about the other citizens. Your fellow man. This is ultimately all because of those 100,000,000 people, because without popularity there is no power, and that power must have been ceded by someone. What exactly do you hope to do about 100,000,000 people?
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Jun 24, 2022 19:10
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Shooting Blanks posted:Huh, just saw this elsewhere: 0. Tribal sovereignty doesn't apply to everything and only applies to members of the tribe for 99% of law enforcement proceedings. People have been prosecuted many times for doing things illegal under state and federal law on a reservation who don't live there. States could also very easily pass laws restricting tribal authority. Don't get legal hot takes from non-lawyer twitter. The most that could actually happen would be for a reservation to raise a lot of private money to establish a clinic that is staffed and serves exclusively members of the tribe and hope the state government doesn't crack down on them.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Not sure who the women are, but they are pictures of women and they were saying "these people" should be choosing their healthcare decisions. This stupid, ill-timed performance is about passing the gun control bill in the house, the pictures are of victims in recent mass shootings. 
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Jun 24, 2022 19:10
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Also it is absolutely not true that tribal lands are outside scotus jurisdiction, they rule on native issues all the time and could easily close any real loophole that was found
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Jun 24, 2022 19:12
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Mormon Star Wars posted:You don't compromise on basic rights, ever. I agree. Which is the issue. Not everyone agrees on basic rights. Gun ownership, vaccines, trans rights, etc are all things otherwise progressive leaning folks can get immensely stuck on. How do you ally with someone who thinks you're a rapist sex pervert in waiting even if they otherwise support gay rights.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:12
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Also to people who are saddened by this. I would advise looking for solutions outside of electoralism in the near future. This is simply from the perspective of one idiot on the internet, but investing in unions and mutual support networks will be vital, at least in my opinion.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:13
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Eiba posted:It's frustrating to see dumb absolutism lead to counterproductive doomerism. The Democrats have failed. Voting for more Democrats is the only way to fix this. Both statements are true. It's not emotionally satisfying, and it's not easy, but it's obviously true. Has Pelosi campaigned for an anti-choice candidate? That's lovely. Have the Democrats failed to expand the supreme court because some of them think playing nice is more important than their policy goals? gently caress those guys. Is anything going to get better if the Democrats have even less power? No. Things will get significantly worse. The Democrats will not grow spines in adversity. They'll perfect their message, sure. They'll say exactly what we want them to say. But the next time they've got a tenuous grip in power, they'll be just as likely drop the ball again. You're stuck in a bad relationship with a bad party and you need to get out of that relationship before things can improve.  Doing the same thing over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Surely this time voting for the democrat party will lead to my preferred policies being implemented by political representatives that refuse to change. Why would you continue to vote for a party that is captured by DINOs that want to continue to be the polite wing of the republican party. Seems counterproductive if your goal is to enact popular progressive policy. You might as well vote for the republicans directly. It's like trying to change the republicans party from the inside. Insanity. Democratic voters make fun of republican voters for voting against their own interest and being duped by rich assholes. They seem to fail to realize or willfully ignore that they are in a very similar situation and are doing the same exact thing by voting for democrats. They'll say that they are not the same that the democrats are actually great once you get to know them but anyone on the outside can see what is happening. Do not listen to the bullshit from the abusers in the democrat party that tell you that they are the only party in the world. That they are the only ones who can stop the republicans. There is a better world with better political parties outside the democrat party. How many times do the democrats have to break their promises to you before you realize who they are. If the democrats were your spouse people would advise you to asap.It's very sad to see good people being abused like this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 24, 2022 19:14
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Agreed. It’s basically an abusive relationship by now.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:19
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ImpAtom posted:I agree. Which is the issue. Not everyone agrees on basic rights. Gun ownership, vaccines, trans rights, etc are all things otherwise progressive leaning folks can get immensely stuck on. How do you ally with someone who thinks you're a rapist sex pervert in waiting even if they otherwise support gay rights. And by the same token, how do you ally with someone who believes poor people deserve to get killed for stealing food even if they otherwise support gay rights, or medicare for all, or student loan debt forgiveness? You can build temporary alliances over individual issues, but that doesn't create a movement. Putting someone who wants to give more money to the police in power because they'll increase the minimum wage is still...putting someone who wants to give more money to the police in power and for many left-identifying people that's simply a non-starter. I don't care what else Val Demmings supports - she's a cop running on a platform of specifically not defunding the police - that's a nonstarter, and I'm not sorry about that.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:20
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I hate quoting from CNN but just listen to this fool: https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/06/24/scotus-overturn-roe-v-wade-trigger-laws-foreman-nr-vpx.cnn They are not done. They are gunning for the ability to ban abortions in all 50 states. Gay rights are next, contraception is not far behind. This is what happens when the religious crazies are given power. This is about control, always has been with them.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:21
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Josef bugman posted:I know but that did not seem to be the person's who I was quoting point. The country is simply too big to have a consistent 'shared ethos' throughout. In conservatives' case, wanting to hurt 'the other' isn't an ethos, it's a base instinct, reinforced by propaganda. ted hitler hunter posted:Have some self-respect and DTMFA. It does not have to be this way. The relationship democrat voters have with their party is not normal. Political parties are supposed to do things for their voters. They are supposed to help their voters. The way the democrat party treat their voters is abusive and sick. The relationship exists because the party has access to money. Oppressed groups are always going to have to make alliances with someone, somewhere with money and power to even have a chance of affecting change. Warm bodies alone physically can't do it. Yeah, it's bad. Flying-PCP fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 19:22
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Lib and let die posted:And by the same token, how do you ally with someone who believes poor people deserve to get killed for stealing food even if they otherwise support gay rights, or medicare for all, or student loan debt forgiveness? You can build temporary alliances over individual issues, but that doesn't create a movement. Putting someone who wants to give more money to the police in power because they'll increase the minimum wage is still...putting someone who wants to give more money to the police in power and for many left-identifying people that's simply a non-starter. To quote / paraphrase one of the people that had an outsized role in getting us into this situation - on a lot of issues you will end up co-belligerants, but that doesn't mean you are allies.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:23
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I know they have no shame and this will do nothing, but I wonder how far some of the "pro-choice" Republicans are going to go in arguing that they are just dumb rubes who were misled. Every single House member has been lining up asking Collins and Murkowski what they are going to do about being lied to if they claim that is the reason for it happening. Collins keeps putting out statements in response saying that she was misled and saddened. She refused to answer a question in her interview about what she would do about it and instead just promised to find the real killer. Murkowski's office declined to release a statement. https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1540397210357174272 https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1540398124182786050 Interestingly, all the biggest pro-lifers are releasing statements assuring everyone that this decision does not actually ban abortion. https://twitter.com/SenCapito/status/1540350835384881153
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Jun 24, 2022 19:23
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