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that's always a crap shoot. My werewolf game ran for almost three years as a play by post and we survived a month off twice over winter holidays. We ended our first chronicle and moved onto a mage game and were supposed to start doing a rotating ST thing after every story. But right as my players uncovered the true nature of the big bad and were starting to put together a plan for taking it down, a bunch of video games and real life stuff hit all of us. I gave us a month break but trying to start back up just didn't take. Same players, same enthusiasm, same format. The advice I can give is start writing up a cool recap that's no more than a few paragraphs. I had always always kept track fo clues found, questions unanswered, and the general goals of my players that I posted everytime we entered a new chapter or came back from a break. Stuff like that helped to keep things focused.
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Jun 25, 2022 15:24
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Fuzz posted:Anyone got any pointers on keeping the momentum and excitement at least in stasis during a break, or how to recap in a way that will rekindle things? This is an asynchronous pbp on discord. Honestly, there's always going to be some momentum lost, but a big part of making sure a game survives that kind of break is just making sure your group continues to be a social group and having the game be something people want to play again when they're reminded of it. Like Soonmot said, it's a crapshoot but it's at least a crapshoot that should leave you with a group that's willing to play something. And yeah, definitely aim for a recap that's relatively short, relatively direct and gives your party something to work with quickly. Discord logs mean making that kind of recap is a lot easier than it could be, so you have that going for you. (Also, try to make sure everyone's posting more synchronously than usual when you do restart. It's just easier to get people excited when everyone's talking in the same digital room at the same time, y'know?)
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Jun 25, 2022 15:33
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Soonmot posted:that's always a crap shoot. My werewolf game ran for almost three years as a play by post and we survived a month off twice over winter holidays. We ended our first chronicle and moved onto a mage game and were supposed to start doing a rotating ST thing after every story. But right as my players uncovered the true nature of the big bad and were starting to put together a plan for taking it down, a bunch of video games and real life stuff hit all of us. I gave us a month break but trying to start back up just didn't take. Same players, same enthusiasm, same format. Never underestimate the power of the recap. The V5 game I've been running has had long gaps in playing because of scheduling, and every session I've done a recap covering the major notes of the last session/things I want the player thinking about that rolls into "And here's where we are tonight”. It's been really helpful for me as the ST to set the tone for the session while also getting my player back up to speed. Usually after a session has ended I'll write down the major plot bits of that session into my notebook so when I come back to write the next session I have the previous sessions major plot bits right at the top of the page to work from and it's made writing sessions/recaps so much easier.
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Jun 25, 2022 15:34
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This isn't one of my recaps, but i never deleted the facebook group we were using for play by post and this is the file i kept updated with clues and goals and such. My players loved this as a reference document. https://1drv.ms/b/s!AghVLzMOTtR_kQLcMLdyW-_hIGfF?e=TiH0F6
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Jun 25, 2022 15:51
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Oh, I see the disconnect. When you use xp as a participation trophy, with no way to gain extra through individual merit or action, yes, I can see why you might think giving them new things to spend it on is unfair.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:00
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TheCenturion posted:Oh, I see the disconnect. When you use xp as a participation trophy, with no way to gain extra through individual merit or action, yes, I can see why you might think giving them new things to spend it on is unfair. Well, in 2E games the participation trophy XP is the one free beat per player showing up. The rest is earned through individual merit and action, and placed in the same communal pool.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:04
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Better throw up those DPS meters so we know everyone's pulling their weight in the combat encounters next. No freeloaders at this table!
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Jun 25, 2022 18:16
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Better throw up those DPS meters so we know everyone's pulling their weight in the combat encounters next. No freeloaders at this table! Exactly why we need group beats. Some layabout who isn't bothering to fulfill aspirations or resolve conditions is just going to lag behind unless I impress on them that I'm counting on them, too!
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Jun 25, 2022 18:19
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Ferrinus posted:Exactly why we need group beats. Some layabout who isn't bothering to fulfill aspirations or resolve conditions is just going to lag behind unless I impress on them that I'm counting on them, too! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 25, 2022 18:23
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cptn_dr how did your PC cabal get together? Just apprenticed under the same mage?
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Jun 25, 2022 18:24
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I've always let people respec their characters if they like for any game, usually for system mastery concerns (threw together something that didn't work very well) or even if they just got bored of it, or didn't like the playstyle, and have never had an issue with people abruptly switching characters to metagame whatever it is we're doing. It's sometimes fun to integrate it as a plot element in an ongoing campaign as well and helps everyone get invested in the change. Trust your players to not take advantage of it, and tell them "no" if you suspect they're doing some munchkin poo poo--seems way better than using an in-game system to resolve an out-of-game problem.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:25
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see i fundamentally don't class "munchkin poo poo" together with player misbehavior in the first place. if there's a incentive to "win" through mechanics and system mastery then either there's supposed to be one and it's just gameplay, or there isn't supposed to be one and it's a design flaw in particular a basic understanding of how extrinsic / intrinsic motivation works will tell you that making mechanical power the reward for good roleplay will not, in fact, promote good roleplay, especially not for its own sake: what it communicates is that mechanical power is what matters and playing your character to type is an obstacle you have to overcome to get it. i suppose it's theoretically possible for someone to be so profoundly D&D-poisoned that they take an extremely goal-oriented, more actor-than-author approach to games that aren't constructed that way at all... but i've literally never seen it happen without perverse incentives at the system level, in years of running like a dozen different systems. the issue is that Storytelling / Storyteller, whether intentionally or naively, absolutely has those incentives. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 18:45
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:see i fundamentally don't class "munchkin poo poo" together with player misbehavior in the first place. Kinda curious - I always thought 'munchkining' implied a willingness to break rules (like the guy who rolls and immediately grabs the dice if the number is too low) whereas the system mastery dude was a power gamer, technically staying within the rules without restoring to cheating. Or is it a context thing?
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Jun 25, 2022 19:20
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In my honest opinion, XP is second only to using dice in core design flubs that only stick around because Gary did it back in '74, and we should toss them right out. 
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Jun 25, 2022 19:28
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Siivola posted:In my honest opinion, XP is second only to using dice in core design flubs that only stick around because Gary did it back in '74, and we should toss them right out. I’m a big fan of BRP or burning wheel style “skills get better as you use them” advancement but it’s hard to square with stuff like merits or powers that don’t get rolled
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Jun 25, 2022 19:32
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Pakxos posted:Kinda curious - I always thought 'munchkining' implied a willingness to break rules (like the guy who rolls and immediately grabs the dice if the number is too low) whereas the system mastery dude was a power gamer, technically staying within the rules without restoring to cheating. I've always seen them used interchangeably, but yeah, to be clear, actual cheating is absolutely a player behavior issue. The system can't be blamed for attempts to circumvent the system entirely. Siivola posted:In my honest opinion, XP is second only to using dice in core design flubs that only stick around because Gary did it back in '74, and we should toss them right out. XP as a concept is fine, although I think it's often used unthinkingly. The key takeaway is the XP should be rewarded for things you want to be understood as obligations or putting yourself second, and anything you want your players chomping at the bit to do, first chance they get, should be framed as a reward. Don't give your players XP for good roleplay in the sense of exercising in-character agency; give them XP for playing supporting cast for others at the table, or for having their character take a narrative fall, something like that. When they earn enough hand them a big narrative spotlight by fiat, let them temporarily dictate the direction of the story. And then maybe toss in some power progression on the side if you want, ideally something thematically related to whatever their big dramatic spotlight was. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 19:45
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Only time I've really seen respec limits matter is in large-scale games like LARP/PbP where heavy PvP potential was involved. One system that worked okay was a single full respec within the first three months of play, though not splat/faction, just dots, and once taken you were locked in. I did witness some 'munchkin'-like behavior in that you'd occasionally see a non-combat character get in trouble and suddenly sprout like three Cel or Vigor, but that also gave newer players/characters a sort of aura of uncertainty which while not intended I was okay with. For a more personal game, I tailor encounters and enemies on the fly all the time to the table, so I'm not scared of any perfect builds or what have you. I might keep an eye on scene-focus issues - so the same player isn't always Johnny-on-the-spot with everyone else feeling second fiddle, but adding more obstacles, mooks, or powers to keep things balanced or interesting is pretty trivial, regardless of the build. (For most lines anyway, maybe Mage is tougher.)
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Jun 25, 2022 19:46
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Soonmot fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 19:54
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XP in White Wolf games is just ooc authority to edit your character; you can tell because you can spend the XP accrued after a session of combat to get your character a house. It's why HAVING XP means a lot more, socially, than spending it; you might want to play a precocious newcomer to a longrunning game precisely by banking rather than spending the same pool that everyone else has got.
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Jun 25, 2022 19:56
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The fact that people are getting into a bitter argument instead of just pointing to Rule 0 is pretty amazing. Maybe this is why nobody ever actually plays these games.
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Jun 25, 2022 20:05
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worm girl posted:The fact that people are getting into a bitter argument instead of just pointing to Rule 0 is pretty amazing. Maybe this is why nobody ever actually plays these games. I was thinking the same thing lol. Oh god I'm about to initiate the dreaded Mage Chat but I'm slowly working my way through the first edition Ascension core right now for eventual review over in the F&F thread and today's reading yielded the infuriating character creation chapter and it's lovely "Free XP" table that is mostly trash options other than upping Arete because your Spheres are poo poo without it, but I don't actually know what the spheres do yet because that's in a later chapter because White Wolf book design is stupid. I also love that there are not one, but TWO Goth wizards groups to play as! The death cult weirdos of the Euthantos and the straight up smoking cloves and nodding to Sisters of Mercy while wearing too much eyeliner Hollow Ones. It's these bits of glorious nonsense that I love about this book, not so much the whole "Science Bad! 90's New Age Woo Good!" that is the plot of 1e.
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Jun 25, 2022 20:22
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worm girl posted:The fact that people are getting into a bitter argument instead of just pointing to Rule 0 is pretty amazing. Maybe this is why nobody ever actually plays these games.
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Jun 25, 2022 20:22
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Yeah, the question is, when should you apply Rule Zero and how?
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Jun 25, 2022 20:30
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Honestly, I feel like the old regime of XP disparity across characters is an extremely corny thing to do these days, it's the sort of minor bullshit that wouldn't ordinarily matter until the guy who has the system mastery to be triggering beats or xp triggers consistently every session has categorically more power than the new guy who's still grappling with dicepool math and feels discouraged when they get to do one thing in a major scene and gently caress it up because they just don't have the tools to do whatever's at stake. All this is to say that the idea of group XP being a participation trophy is extremely funny to me. Like yeah, I participated and triggered beat gains for myself, and now my buddy benefits too, and when he triggers something, I get a little something too. It even incentivizes people watching out for each other, pointing out when they'd earn XP from whatever given source may be relevant at the time. We all lift together at this table, bud! It's a collaborative story, doesn't it make sense to just make everything communal so that everyone gets the same shot at relevance in their chosen playstyle?
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Jun 25, 2022 20:32
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joylessdivision posted:
Well actually, only the Hollow Ones are goth wizards, the Euthanatos are more necromancers and death priests. 
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Jun 25, 2022 22:17
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Soonmot posted:Well actually, only the Hollow Ones are goth wizards, the Euthanatos are more necromancers and death priests. The Euthantos have Dance as foci. They are absolutely doing goth dances to Bauhaus. I will not be swayed
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Jun 25, 2022 22:34
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I think the type and depth of "gamification" in any given game is a spectrum, and could theoretically include xp cost for respecs, but it's an idea like any other that should be interrogated. I would suggest that in the context of WoD/CoD and RPGs as systematized games, they are sufficiently divorced from any true sense of rigor—despite all the numbers and subsystems, particularly pre-V5—that's the reason the whole exercise is seen as faintly ridiculous. It's not impossible to have fun twisting the system around for maximum power, but I don't think it's terribly controversial to say that these games are at best generally kind of poorly designed, so most anti-shenanigans enforcement mechanisms to smooth over the rough spots must be social, unless you're doing a total, transformative ground-up rewrite. I won't say it's categorically impossible for Centurion's game to benefit from their xp surcharge rule, but I would challenge them to deeply consider what exactly it does to add to the fun of these games.
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Jun 25, 2022 23:11
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Believe it or not, some players enjoy the idea of choices and consequences. Others enjoy a sandbox. To each their own.
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Jun 26, 2022 00:28
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:XP as a concept is fine, although I think it's often used unthinkingly. The key takeaway is the XP should be rewarded for things you want to be understood as obligations or putting yourself second, and anything you want your players chomping at the bit to do, first chance they get, should be framed as a reward. XP as a concept works fine, yeah. XP in the storyteller game systems has always been more personal than necessary. We started our Awakening game using group beats and that worked okay. Once we just started gaining XP and AXP at a standard and regular rate, we never had issues with people chasing the XP tick. Characters started taking better and more risks, we had more dramatic failures, and they became more complete and deep characters because of it. I know that in the system beats/XP are supposed to be rewards, but I've never run into them being a reward for making the game better, just as something that's chased to make the character sheet better. All the Masquerade games I ever played in rarely had enough XP to actually use. 1e Requiem/Awakening/etc had a lot of the same problems with XP, but by then I would hand it out like candy and people could actually spend enough to advance in power levels. 2e Chronicles was the sweet spot for where the cost scaling got removed and people could regularly improve the character, and could even spend on skills, merits, and attributes without outright losing on the power scaling at the same time.
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Jun 26, 2022 00:41
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TheCenturion posted:Believe it or not, some players enjoy the idea of choices and consequences. Others enjoy a sandbox. To each their own. First, there's a choice and consequence to a "free" respec. The choice is to have a different ability and the consequence is to lose your old ability. If you swap +Health for +Will Save you become easier to kill. Second, there is no escaping the state of exception. Even if you have rigorous, clear, and punitive respec rules codified from the start - especially if they're punitive - you WILL get players being like, oops, I picked the wrong thing because I misread a sidebar or had to take a work call or just got dumped or whatever. Can I take it back? Like this isn't my character drawing on The Blood to transfigure their own Disciplines at a terrible cost to their ultimate capacity, I just want a take-back, a retcon, a rewind, please? And no amount of conservative rhetoric is going to solve this social problem for you.
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Jun 26, 2022 00:43
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, the question is, when should you apply Rule Zero and how? If someone wants to change their sheet because their build sucks or they picked something they're not happy with, then let them. If they are trying to do it to gain some advantage, then either have a polite conversation with them about not being an rear end in a top hat or ask them to find another game. This is like the third or fourth oldest issue in gaming and it's absolutely a solved problem. If you're designing for society play or some situation where there are more than a handful of players and you need to have rules in place that automatically account for bad behavior, then OK I guess but I assume we're discussing five friends at a table and not thirty strangers cosplaying at Denny's.
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Jun 26, 2022 02:17
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Jhet posted:XP as a concept works fine, yeah. XP in the storyteller game systems has always been more personal than necessary. We started our Awakening game using group beats and that worked okay. Once we just started gaining XP and AXP at a standard and regular rate, we never had issues with people chasing the XP tick. Characters started taking better and more risks, we had more dramatic failures, and they became more complete and deep characters because of it. Arcane xp was such a great game system that I've used it for all the other lines too. It encourages the players to pump their mundane stats and backgrounds instead of just their disciplines. I also house ruled it that the power stat could only be increased with splat XP and only after they did something that I considered a tipping point for increased power.
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Jun 26, 2022 02:42
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Soonmot posted:This isn't one of my recaps, but i never deleted the facebook group we were using for play by post and this is the file i kept updated with clues and goals and such. My players loved this as a reference document. Reminds me of our V5 game's Relationship maps:  My guy's:  Miro is pretty rad.
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Jun 26, 2022 03:17
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Soonmot posted:Arcane xp was such a great game system that I've used it for all the other lines too. It encourages the players to pump their mundane stats and backgrounds instead of just their disciplines. I also house ruled it that the power stat could only be increased with splat XP and only after they did something that I considered a tipping point for increased power. Yeah, that would be a good move. I just ended up saying F it, go nuts. But the faster you get there, the bad guys will scale too. If I were trying to keep the power lid on only using AXP or VXP or whatever for the actual power stat is good. And making the special xp only useful for the magical side of things is a good idea too. There are just so many toys to use, I want my players to be able to actually use enough of them that they don’t get bored and we either need to speed through story or skips parts or not even finish because they don’t feel like the character is changing and getting new things to play with.
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Jun 26, 2022 03:31
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e; Not worth it.
TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 03:55
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I also tried to stress using the inherent powers the splats get, especially vampires. There's so much folks just don't use.
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Jun 26, 2022 04:24
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Soonmot posted:Arcane xp was such a great game system that I've used it for all the other lines too. It encourages the players to pump their mundane stats and backgrounds instead of just their disciplines. I also house ruled it that the power stat could only be increased with splat XP and only after they did something that I considered a tipping point for increased power. - The Mages accrue "group" arcane beats turning into "group" arcane XP whenever they hit 6 arcane beats - I put "group" in quotes because for the non-mages, those arcane XP are just regular XP - Everybody also accrues the normal group beats for group XP, at a 12 beats = 1 XP rate - The Demon just gets Cover XP on their own because Cover XP isn't like. "good" or "useful" the same way and accrues far slower and more idiosyncratically so it's not like we notice it anyway The end result is that we're all progressing at the same rate, even if the characters themselves have wildly different capabilities (Deviant who's a 28D Later rage zombie sometimes, 2 mages, 1 changeling, 1 sublimatus pandoran who really really wants to be a promethean one day, 1 demon). And we all have different areas of focus, in a way that roughly breaks down to outdoor kids (deviant, pandoran, changeling are all various flavors of combat monster) and indoor kids (the mages + demon basically spend combat or combat-adjacent sequences frantically trying to ping and scan every tool they could possibly use around them and then looking to get away before anyone notices they're there). It's been really cool so far, through 10 proper main sessions, 20something less-than-full-party variable-composition vignettes, and prologue sessions for each of us and a few combinations.
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Jun 26, 2022 04:29
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What's your changeling doing to earn combat monster status? Aggressive damage from beast or elemental+ appropriate powers?
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Jun 26, 2022 04:52
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Soonmot posted:What's your changeling doing to earn combat monster status? Aggressive damage from beast or elemental+ appropriate powers?
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Jun 26, 2022 05:37
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worm girl posted:This is like the third or fourth oldest issue in gaming and it's absolutely a solved problem. Edit: I'm teasing, but I do actually think this is funny. Siivola fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 08:06
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