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sure it did. 1. I can't imagine the ukrainian -russian conflict without Biden going full-cold warrior, instead of Russian collaborator trump. 2. stimulus of 2020 happened. these wouldn't have happened without voting.
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Jun 25, 2022 16:59
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shades of eternity posted:So what are you going to do about it? i'm going to give all my money to nancy pelosi (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 25, 2022 16:59
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shades of eternity posted:sure it did. Are you arguing in favor of re-electing Trump?
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Jun 25, 2022 17:03
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shades of eternity posted:sure it did. I'm getting mixed messages here because the 2020 stimulus checks happened under Trump.
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Jun 25, 2022 17:04
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Rigel posted:When 48 Democrats want to do something, a couple other stupid Senators refuse and would rather sit and do nothing, there is absolutely no way whatsoever to pressure them into giving in, then how would a person who is smart and educated argue that this then means that all 50 are against doing something? Oh! I know this one! We’re supposed to kick Manchin and Sinema out of the party, so that in addition to not getting the thing we want, we can also not not control any committees and have Mitch McConnell back in charge of the senate calendar.
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Jun 25, 2022 17:04
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I honestly don't follow...explain? edit: gah, called it the wrong thing. I was refering to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021
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Jun 25, 2022 17:04
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Lots of people are replying to me "we shoot and imprison and put people in concentration camps now with electoral politics, therefore what's the difference?" The difference is either we do electoral politics or we have a civil war, pick your poison.
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Jun 25, 2022 17:09
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shades of eternity posted:I honestly don't follow...explain? Voting also led to the Democrats ending the enhanced unemployment and ending the eviction moratorium. Voting also led to Democrats discouraging refugees from coming to the US. It also led to a president killing an American child with a drone strike. Twincityhacker posted:Lots of people are replying to me "we shoot and imprison and put people in concentration camps now with electoral politics, therefore what's the difference?" Since you didn't refute or even attempt to refute the "we shoot and imprison and put people in concentration camps now with electoral politics, therefore what's the difference?" your second sentence comes off as if it's better to shoot, imprison, and put people in concentration camps than having a civil war. Is it the lesser evil to have some people suffer so that others can live comfortably? theCalamity fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 17:13
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double post
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Jun 25, 2022 17:15
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Bar Ran Dun posted:This is a thing already I think. Yeah, someone else posted a link. It honestly surprised me because I thought it was such a weird out of the box idea and that I was being an idiot. Again. Have Some Flowers! posted:The end of public education, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, NLRA protections for forming unions, anti-discrimination laws, child labor laws, minimum wage, protections for national parks and other public lands. The EPA, the FDA, the CDC, the Consumer Federal Protection Bureau. This is how I'm feeling more and more and agree with just about all this. The future I see is akin to basically everyone being and Amazon warehouse worker where everyone is wearing a diaper because they never get bathroom breaks. Health insurance is essentially useless because of high deductibles and you get demerits for taking time off to even see a doctor, people work so many hours with so little contact with the news (assuming the new is even vetted and accurate) that they know very little about issues and even they're inclined to get involved simply do not have the time. Good luck finding time to go to school to get a slightly bigger paycheck. Or even being able to afford higher education of any sort. If you have a kid, a commute, a full time job and anything even slightly resembling a health problem, your free time is astonishingly small. In a cell phone driven world where more and more companies deny access to devices of any sort during work hours and you get, at best, two 20 minute breaks and a half hour lunch to catch up on 50 text messages, phone calls and emails (many of which are spam, cons or FROM YOUR JOB), good loving luck tending to that or hashing out a conversation with a doctor, insurance company, bank, mechanic, pest control guy, cable company, airline, accountant, car dealership, lawyer, a spouse or anything that needs your attention during regular work hours. I LOVE taking my 10 minute break and dealing with 22 text messages and emails or trying to reach my shrink. Break over. "They" want or require everyone to be so busy, overwhelmed, uneducated and under informed that "they" can sort out and control the rules in backrooms, during long lunches, ski trips and on golf courses while the rest of us toil in the mines. Not working is not an option. Working for yourself is BARELY an option. Unions? Lol. Having everything in your pocket and done through your phone doesn't do anyone any good and isn't convenient if you're not allowed to use it 8 hours a day and don't text and drive. Sorry for the 
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Jun 25, 2022 17:20
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Twincityhacker posted:Lots of people are replying to me "we shoot and imprison and put people in concentration camps now with electoral politics, therefore what's the difference?" There's a quote that I can't find the source for but it goes something like When republicans feel voting won't get them what they want they will abandon democracy They have already abandoned democracy and the civil war is almost baked in at this point. The only way to avoid it would be to abandon the filibuster and pass massive voting protection laws. When the fascists take federal power they will only consolidate it even more, and feel more brazen about breaking with public opinion.
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Jun 25, 2022 17:21
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Gripweed posted:Have any Senate Democrats suggested impeaching justices for lying during confirmation hearings? I still think hauling the justices in front of the public court of opinion on that stuff could be worth it even if perjury wouldn't fly, and I think the standard for impeachment could easily be 'misleading' rather than outright perjury - after all, a supreme court justice should be supremely capable at communicating their thoughts without ambiguity or nuance, or leaving tons of room for interpretation.
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Jun 25, 2022 17:24
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I feel like the civil war has basically already started. Human rights have just been denied to half of this country and those who protest are having tear gas canisters shot at them. It only gets worse from here.
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Jun 25, 2022 17:27
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I feel like the civil war has basically already started. Human rights have just been denied to half of this country and those who protest are having tear gas canisters shot at them. It only gets worse from here. It's very much a cold civil war, but it is predominantly being waged on the poor and non white communities. The fascists know they can exclude the wealthy and white for the most part and they won't do anything to upset the status quo. https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1540733524315148289
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Jun 25, 2022 17:31
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BiggerBoat posted:In a cell phone driven world where more and more companies deny access to devices of any sort during work hours and you get, at best, two 20 minute breaks and a half hour lunch to catch up on 50 text messages, phone calls and emails (many of which are spam, cons or FROM YOUR JOB), good loving luck tending to that or hashing out a conversation with a doctor, insurance company, bank, mechanic, pest control guy, cable company, airline, accountant, car dealership, lawyer, a spouse or anything that needs your attention during regular work hours. What? What is this sort of company town bullshit? Any company demanding that here would have their offices set on fire within hours lol
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Jun 25, 2022 17:37
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Hi goons - saw some discussion of What Might Have Been In 2016 in the SCOTUS thread in the aftermath of yesterday’s ruling, and now I’m looking for the definitive/best possible accounts of What The Hillary Campaign Did Wrong. I have a long incoherent mental list of reasons, but no real clear-headed retrospective analysis. Articles, books, or links to your favorite past effort posts are most welcome; not looking to derail the thread (unless someone wants to make a serious effort post breaking it all down). Anything from nitty-gritty campaign details to bigger picture political strategy pieces would be much appreciated. Combed Thunderclap fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 17:45
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Hi goons - saw some discussion of What Might Have Been In 2016 in the SCOTUS thread in the aftermath of yesterday’s ruling, and now I’m looking for the definitive/best possible accounts of What The Hillary Campaign Did Wrong. I have a long incoherent mental list of reasons, but no real clear-headed retrospective analysis. Pied Piper strategy was a truly galaxy brained decision
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Jun 25, 2022 17:48
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Combed Thunderclap posted:; not looking to derail the thread
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Jun 25, 2022 17:56
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...Why are people in this thread gagging for a civil war that the left would lose in?
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Jun 25, 2022 17:57
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DarkCrawler posted:What? What is this sort of company town bullshit? Any company demanding that here would have their offices set on fire within hours lol I don't think you fully appreciate how cowed Americans are. Why we're cowed is up for debate though. But yeah, this is the norm in a lot of jobs, and as surveillance tech gets better the rules get more strict.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:01
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Hi goons - saw some discussion of What Might Have Been In 2016 in the SCOTUS thread in the aftermath of yesterday’s ruling, and now I’m looking for the definitive/best possible accounts of What The Hillary Campaign Did Wrong. I have a long incoherent mental list of reasons, but no real clear-headed retrospective analysis. The book “Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton’s Doomed Campaign” is a pretty comprehensive but easily digestible account of everything that went wrong. Quick read.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:06
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Twincityhacker posted:...Why are people in this thread gagging for a civil war that the left would lose in? It’s arguably happening right now and has perhaps been going on for some time. I don’t think anybody wants it. Maybe some people are imagining an ultimate resolution that allows for something new to replace the same old same old we’re running up against now. It wouldn’t be like battles between armies but more like a slow breakdown of institutions as things get worse and worse and fixing them becomes untenable, if there are relatively recent analogues for that.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:07
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Twincityhacker posted:...Why are people in this thread gagging for a civil war that the left would lose in? Because it seems like it is going to happen or at least that it has some potential for it happening. The better option is to be aware of the potential for bad things to happen and to try and mitigate things. It isn't looking forward to it, it is being aware of it.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:07
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Seems like bringing that up couldn't do anything BUT derail the thread. Is there some kind of purgatory hellthread where that discussion can live forever? I actually think it's an interesting topic to discuss but not in any thread about anything else.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:08
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Twincityhacker posted:...Why are people in this thread gagging for a civil war that the left would lose in? I'm not gagging for a civil war but I do think it's important that people think now about what their redlines are because not having them is one of the ways well meaning liberals get lead into fascism. We should think about that now before things get worse so that you're prepared if they do. If you always prioritize peace you'll just get a peaceful death when things get worse.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yes it has survived literally being massacred. However 1) I think there's no guarantee it survives literal massacres again and 2) I would prefer the far right not get to do what they want to do the left, which is a lot worse than merely make things illegal. Just a week ago people in this thread were saying that leftist organization has been impossible to gain traction with because police killings and other violence were so disruptive and discouraging. Currently they're targeted primarily by local cops and far right 'vigilantes' or militia idiots how is that going to work when it's the full might of the federal government? Like I said, the revived labor movement (which, yes, still has a way to go before it's as powerful as it was in the 60s, but the tide is turning) isn't a guaranteed way forward; it just strikes me as a much more promising way forward for progressives and leftists than making the continued support of the Dems our primary focus. DarkCrawler posted:I'm just not seeing any of this. If the left can't organize in a disciplined way in electoralism, or be ruthless enough to utilize tactics and rhetoric that win there, how are they going to do it in something that is much harder? It's going to require far more dedication from each participant top and bottom, far more sacrifices and be far more distruptive and oppositional to those who aren't left. What, exactly, does "organize in a disciplined way in electoralism" mean, exactly? Win rigged elections when we're already far from a majority of the country's voting population anyway? Why would they be "disciplined" in that, when a lot of leftists don't particularly believe in it? Yes, it's going to take a lot of discipline and hard work for everyone from top to bottom to make it work, but hard times can create a steely resolve in workers and revolutionaries. We're going through hard times now, and they're only going to get harder, and workers are only going to become more and more willing to go on strike, walk out, protest, riot, and disrupt as their bosses continue to exploit them. It's going to be a long struggle, but I think it has a chance of succeeding. You're free to disagree. quote:And either way, there has to be some electoralism for those aims to be reflected in law - it's not like the past worker's movements did not participate in politics, pretty much the opposite in fact. Right, but I don't think I've once suggested that the left shouldn't participate in electoral politics - just not make it their primary focus. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 25, 2022 18:14
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Given that we can't even convince some members on our side that 2 hours of their time once a year voting is a worthwhile effort, not sure how anyone thinks we'd be able to compete with the nutters that are drilling with firearms every weekend and spending hours every week harassing school boards and town halls. Our side folds when a vote doesn't go our way, their side folds only once we're all gone and our values are erased from history. They hate their elected officials too (see the recent harassment of Dan Crenshaw by his own party) but they still vote for them, as a means to an end. And after they cast that vote, they go right back to the insane direct action stuff they know generates results, too.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:17
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The importance of an election is insignificant when your only options are the party that makes bad things happen and the party the lets bad things happen.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:19
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Twincityhacker posted:...Why are people in this thread gagging for a civil war that the left would lose in? Saying "electoral politics is not producing democratic outcomes" is not 'gagging for a civil war'. Knock it off.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:21
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https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR1M2toB/?k=1 A video of a speech by Afeni X yesterday. She’s echoing what many people in here have said: if the Democrats are useless and if they continue to be useless, vote them out. There’s a palpable frustration present that democrats should take note of. People know that the democrats are in power right now and if they continue to fumble things like they’ve done, they will lose. https://twitter.com/codepink/status/1540498684995162112?s=21&t=r_zdRUoBZ30YBn9IxyVl9Q The good thing is that she’s not only talking about abortion rights. Afeni mentions healthcare, and racial and economic justice. Because ultimately, it’s not just about abortion rights, it’s everything. She’s laying out that better things for everyone are possible.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:21
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Have Some Flowers! posted:Given that we can't even convince some members on our side that 2 hours of their time once a year voting is a worthwhile effort, not sure how anyone thinks we'd be able to compete with the nutters that are drilling with firearms every weekend and spending hours every week harassing school boards and town halls. It helps that Capital is very much on their side and very much not on ours. The billionaire class is only too happy to bankroll insurgent right-wing candidates and movements because hey, shockingly they always seem to benefit from it. But also, the broader left (let's say that's everyone to the left of the Dem mainstream) does reliably turn out in elections to vote blue no matter who. See this Pew study, and of course, read "liberal" as "left-wing," because our political media is really stupid and loves to treat those labels as synonyms. The groups that don't reliably turn out for the Dems tend to be working-class people of color.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:27
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DarkCrawler posted:it's not like the past worker's movements did not participate in politics, pretty much the opposite in fact. quote:Both Communist groups had taken the Socialists to task for their addiction to “parliamentary activity” and both formally adopted statements that, if taken literally, precluded electoral campaigns. But there the similarity ended. The Communist Party really believed that municipal campaigns were likely to contaminate revolutionaries (it believed that almost anything might contaminate revolutionaries), while the opposition of the Communist Labor Party to electioneering was more cant than conviction. . . 
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Jun 25, 2022 18:32
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Have Some Flowers! posted:Given that we can't even convince some members on our side that 2 hours of their time once a year voting is a worthwhile effort, not sure how anyone thinks we'd be able to compete with the nutters that are drilling with firearms every weekend and spending hours every week harassing school boards and town halls. Nobody's saying voting is too much effort, and characterizing it that way is part of why it gets dismissed as feeling entitled to people's votes. If the party's not going to represent the electorate or make a good faith attempt to fulfill their campaign promises, why in the world would you vote for them? Just voting to oppose the fash would be a necessary good if the opposing candidates would effectively oppose the fash. When the choice is Trumpist Christian Dominionist or quisling on the lobbyist payroll that makes centrist noises in ads then fills a chair making show votes for a few years, there's not much motivating people to the ballot box.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:42
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Sailor Video Games posted:Saying "electoral politics is not producing democratic outcomes" is not 'gagging for a civil war'. Knock it off. Also the Civil War's outcome would be entirely dependent on factors that don't exist. There is no "left" gagging for anything. The majority of the country abhors this opinion.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:49
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Sailor Video Games posted:Saying "electoral politics is not producing democratic outcomes" is not 'gagging for a civil war'. Knock it off. Okay, fine. Most people in the thread aren't excited for a civil war, they are just... completely resigned to the fact to the point where absolutely nothing can avoid it to the point of not even trying anymore? And we aren't going to win a civil war, the best outcome is taking some christofacists with us. =/
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Jun 25, 2022 18:51
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I don't recall no one say not to try anything at all, the disagreement is how much electoralism is part of the solution
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Jun 25, 2022 18:56
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Twincityhacker posted:Okay, fine. Most people in the thread aren't excited for a civil war, they are just... completely resigned to the fact to the point where absolutely nothing can avoid it to the point of not even trying anymore? What can be done to avoid it? I'm genuinely asking. Getting the "left," such as it is, to turn out to vote in November isn't going to make much of a difference; the number of leftists who don't already turn out to vote anyway is pretty small. The much bigger problem for the Dems is that they're hemorrhaging non-ideological working-class black and brown voters, who aren't turning out for the Dems reliably because the Dems don't give them much of a reason to turn out anymore. Also, as others have said, I don't think we're going to see a literal Civil War 2, but instead more of a cold civil war where the country increasingly fragments and becomes ungovernable. World Famous W posted:I don't recall no one say not to try anything at all, the disagreement is how much electoralism is part of the solution Exactly. Most of us here were raised to believe that voting, or at most voting plus donating and volunteering for campaigns, was the totality of our political activity. That's what the folks in power have wanted us to believe, because it really, really benefits them if our political activity is that narrowly curtailed. As a group, left-of-center folks need to have sort of Copernican Revolution in how we view politics, and flip those assumptions on their head. Direct action and working outside of the system need to take up the lion's share of our political activity, while electoralism needs to go from being all that we do, to just one small part of what we do. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 18:56
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If the Democrats can prevent the loss of the Senate in November, that would be pretty unexpected. The House doesn't seem salvageable, Pelosi spiked it.
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Jun 25, 2022 19:04
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Hi goons - saw some discussion of What Might Have Been In 2016 in the SCOTUS thread in the aftermath of yesterday’s ruling, and now I’m looking for the definitive/best possible accounts of What The Hillary Campaign Did Wrong. I have a long incoherent mental list of reasons, but no real clear-headed retrospective analysis. I can't remember all the details or which tell-all it came from, but Bill Clinton wanted to run campaign events in states that Robby Mook told him had flipped red since the 90s and that Bill was wasting his time. I think it was like Wisconsin or something? Unable to get any real support from the campaign organization, Bill went and did townhall speeches in those states in the final weeks with minimal production or organization. Clinton narrowly lost instead of the washout that Mook expected. It's rather telling that Hillary's people had less of a finger on the pulse than 'Slick Willie', and they okay-boomer'ed one of the best political campaigners of a generation while pretending that Hillary was Barack Obama The Second and could expect the same votes from the same people.
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Jun 25, 2022 19:05
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Dunite posted:Call the service, National Forests "Get some Nature and Nuture" Majorian posted:Also, as others have said, I don't think we're going to see a literal Civil War 2, but instead more of a cold civil war where the country increasingly fragments and becomes ungovernable.
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