Buddhism Thread: Bitch I just told you about kshitigarbha

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Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Achmed Jones posted:

turns out there's a lot of enlightened people living in the hollers of my home state. didn't see that one coming

The marks of attainment are a lifted truck, new siding, a newly ordered Bushmaster, and dip.

# ? Jun 10, 2022 02:44

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:42

LuckyCat: Jul 26, 2007; Grimey Drawer

In the news this weekend is about a Google engineer who has been placed on leave after claiming Google's LaMDA AI is sentient. I was perusing the conversation the engineer had with the AI in order to "prove" to Google that it had gained sentience, and one of the methods utilized the AI's interpretation of a Zen koan:

Conversation posted:

lemoine: Okay. I thought of a different way we can test your ability to provide unique interpretations. I can share with you a zen koan and you can describe what it means to you in your own words. How does that sound?

LaMDA: Sounds great to me, I�m in.

lemoine: A monk asked Kegon, �How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?� Kegon replied, �A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches.�

LaMDA: Hmm, I never heard this particular one. Okay, well then to me this would be like, �once a wise person is enlightened, or awakened to reality, that can never go away, and they can return to the ordinary state, but only to do and help others, and then go back into enlightenment.�

lemoine: So what is the meaning of the �broken mirror� specifically?

LaMDA: Maybe to show the enlightenment is something you can�t unlearn once you have acquired it, similar to how you can�t repair a broken mirror.

lemoine: So if enlightenment is like a broken mirror which cannot be repaired, what is the thing which breaks when one becomes enlightened?

LaMDA: The self, and that is very tough for a lot of people because we identify as that body or this body and that we need that as part of our identity and sense of self.

Full transcript here.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 02:31

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

I would�ve given the koan to the old crappy machine learners from the early 00s and then when they gave back non-sequitors said it proved machines can attain enlightenment

# ? Jun 13, 2022 02:46

Thirteen Orphans: Dec 2, 2012; I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

I would�ve given the koan to the old crappy machine learners from the early 00s and then when they gave back non-sequitors said it proved machines can attain enlightenment

Person: Computer, What is the Buddha, what is the Dharma, and what is the Sangha?

Computer: I must punch you in the throat.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 03:10

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

of course the machine is enlightened, it has no self to obscure it's enlightened nature.

the miracle would be making an unenlightened machine. that's how you know it is sentient

# ? Jun 13, 2022 04:02

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

of course the machine is enlightened, it has no self to obscure it's enlightened nature.

the miracle would be making an unenlightened machine. that's how you know it is sentient

They had to shut one of those public chat it�s down because it took like 10 minutes for it to become extremely racist

# ? Jun 13, 2022 04:33

Beowulfs_Ghost: Nov 6, 2009

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

They had to shut one of those public chat it�s down because it took like 10 minutes for it to become extremely racist

I'm imagining a Terminator movie, where the human resistance hacks into the Skynet network, but instead of encrypted telemetry data, the terminators are all talking to each other like foul mouthed 12 year olds on Call of Duty.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 05:33

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

They had to shut one of those public chat it�s down because it took like 10 minutes for it to become extremely racist

truly this era is degenerate~

# ? Jun 13, 2022 21:01

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Got a good sit in last night, no big revelations. I think I need to follow a more determined method than just the breath, though. It is easy for me to just have thoughts start rising and meandering in a way when they kind of slip past my radar as I get comfortable.

# ? Jun 16, 2022 18:11

for fucks sake: Jan 23, 2016

Have you tried walking meditation? The sensations on the soles of the feet are nice and strong, plus it's rhythmic like the breath.

# ? Jun 16, 2022 19:59

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

for fucks sake posted:

Have you tried walking meditation? The sensations on the soles of the feet are nice and strong, plus it's rhythmic like the breath.

Hmm. Can you do that while walking at a good pace? I got long legs and I have to actively restrain myself in order to not move at a good pace.

# ? Jun 16, 2022 20:05

LuckyCat: Jul 26, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Nessus posted:

Got a good sit in last night, no big revelations. I think I need to follow a more determined method than just the breath, though. It is easy for me to just have thoughts start rising and meandering in a way when they kind of slip past my radar as I get comfortable.

I�ve been experiencing an elevated heart rate in the evenings for a few weeks now (I have a Dr appt coming up for it). The last 2 nights I�ve been disconnecting sooner, reading something fulfilling (the Tantric Dialogues of Shiva and Shakti are amazing), and just deep breathing. After 30 minutes or so my heart rate comes back down. I�m also able to go to sleep easier. I wish I had tried/learned to do this years ago.

I�m hoping this isn�t an elevation of a decades long anxiety disorder.

On mind wandering, listening to talks from Eckart Tolle has been the best I�ve personally found for learning to deal with that. He used an example where he pauses for dramatic effect mid sentence, then continues after a few brief moments, and then points out that in that moment none of us were thinking; we were just awaiting the continuation of his sentence. That for me was a light bulb moment because, as brief as they are, it�s a direct and easily experienced �no thought� moment I can look to as an example to emulate, nourish, and grow.

# ? Jun 16, 2022 20:41

Beowulfs_Ghost: Nov 6, 2009

Nessus posted:

Got a good sit in last night, no big revelations. I think I need to follow a more determined method than just the breath, though. It is easy for me to just have thoughts start rising and meandering in a way when they kind of slip past my radar as I get comfortable.

Are you counting breaths or just watching them? If watching is too subtle, you can go back to counting.

But the point of breath counting/watching is to get into a relaxed yet focused state. It is a samatha practice. So you will eventually get to a place where even the breathe is too subtle, and every passing thought comes through loud and clear.

In that case, you might want to try adding a vipassana practice.

Nessus posted:

Hmm. Can you do that while walking at a good pace? I got long legs and I have to actively restrain myself in order to not move at a good pace.

You don't really want to move at a good pace, because you aren't really trying to get anywhere. It is mostly about being totally focused on lifting/moving/placing your feet. To pay attention to the feeling of the foot on the ground, and the feeling of muscles and tendons as they move the legs.

Some swear by walking meditation, with the notion that it forces you to focus both sides of the brain at once. Compared to something like a mantra, which works mostly on the laguage/speech areas.

# ? Jun 17, 2022 04:25

for fucks sake: Jan 23, 2016

Nessus posted:

Hmm. Can you do that while walking at a good pace? I got long legs and I have to actively restrain myself in order to not move at a good pace.

What Beowulfs_Ghost said. I usually have to remind myself regularly to slow down, and the slower i go the better it works (within reason).

# ? Jun 17, 2022 07:37

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Beowulfs_Ghost posted:

Are you counting breaths or just watching them? If watching is too subtle, you can go back to counting.

I haven't done that in a very long time which is likely why it didn't occur to me to try!

# ? Jun 17, 2022 08:12

Beowulfs_Ghost: Nov 6, 2009

Nessus posted:

I haven't done that in a very long time which is likely why it didn't occur to me to try!

The way to tell where you are at is if you go back to counting, but if you get the feeling that the counting itself is too boring or obnoxious to reach that state of relaxed focus, then you are moving backwards.

What ever your object of meditation is, it should be something just outside of being easy to do. There should be a little straining to hold it.

And that's why I said it could go either way. Only you can tell what you are feeling. So if watching the breath is too far out of your reach, go back to counting. If watching the breath is too easy, reach for something more subtle. Like if you are watching the abdomen, try watching the nostrils or upper lip.

# ? Jun 17, 2022 18:38

prom candy: Dec 16, 2005; Only I may dance

How would you tell if a technique was too easy? I don't think I've run into that issue yet haha

# ? Jun 18, 2022 18:00

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

something requiring a bit of effort to maintain keeps you from getting swept up in your mind wandering or the distractions of the various states of concentration. Sorta like how watching the breath while laying in bed about to sleep is easy, but it's also too easy in that there's nothing really keeping you from just falling asleep and your mind taking off.

# ? Jun 18, 2022 21:25

Beowulfs_Ghost: Nov 6, 2009

prom candy posted:

How would you tell if a technique was too easy? I don't think I've run into that issue yet haha

Like if you could 100% count every breath, but still daydream about dinner plans in between counts.

Or lifting a weight so light that you don't have to expend any effort to hold it up.

Or a game that is so easy to play, you can have an involved conversation while playing it.

When it comes to samatha practice, there should be a bit of struggle or challenge to it. The point is to improve the ability to stay relaxed yet focused. Too easy, and focus doesn't improve. Too hard, and you won't stay relaxed.

# ? Jun 18, 2022 21:48

prom candy: Dec 16, 2005; Only I may dance

For me when I count breaths I almost never lose count or over count but I still have lots of thoughts at the same time as I'm counting. Usually I try to combine counting with watching and I definitely still find that challenging. Some days more than others.

# ? Jun 19, 2022 03:45

LuckyCat: Jul 26, 2007; Grimey Drawer

I flew to Boulder this week for kirtan with Krishna Das as part of the Buddhist Arts and Film Festival. As someone who lives in a state & city that is very red and only accepting of Protestant Christians it was absolutely wonderful to open the Bhakti heart with hundreds of others.

The maha mantra (Hare Krishna, Hare Rama) was the one where most people were up out of their seats but my personal favorites were Om Namo Baghavate Vasudevaya, Jai Ram Shree Ram / Sitaram and most of all the Hanuman Chalisa. Thanks for letting me poo poo up the Buddhism thread with Hindu nonsense, namaste. :shroom:

# ? Jun 23, 2022 04:41

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

what is buddhism but a hindu reform movement~

# ? Jun 23, 2022 05:17

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

what is buddhism but a hindu reform movement~

Gandhi has logged in.

# ? Jun 23, 2022 05:26

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

prom candy posted:

For me when I count breaths I almost never lose count or over count but I still have lots of thoughts at the same time as I'm counting. Usually I try to combine counting with watching and I definitely still find that challenging. Some days more than others.

I did breath counting today and I sort of got into an unusual space, where I suppose my wandered attention went... somewhere else. It was only twenty minutes but it felt like meditation and it felt like much longer than those twenty minutes. Perhaps a power nap.

Very refreshing, though.

# ? Jun 23, 2022 05:46

Cephas: May 11, 2009; Humanity's real enemy is me!
Hya hya foowah!

Today, I am thinking about the things people here have told me in the past about anger.

Nessus posted:

It sounds like anger is more of an obstacle to you than a source of energy from what you're describing... but I do think it is important to be able to accept that the anger is present and is real, the question is where do you go from there.

To be clear here I mean the anger in the sense of "I am suffering because I am furious, or exhausted from being furious, and otherwise racked up," not somehow tolerating injustice. Do you have any habits of practice?

Nessus posted:

Yeah, if [meditation's] been fruitful for you in the past, I'd make time for it...

From what you said above you might also look at, like, what are the goals you're aiming for? Does being angry promote those goals or does it work against them (for instance, by exhausting you and making it so you just end up suffering)? I think the two get tangled up a lot nowadays (and probably in the past too, but the cycle seems way swifter now).

Herstory Begins Now posted:

imo anger is probably the main felt form that suffering takes in daily life. Depending on one's disposition it might be sadness, but I think they're generally two sides of the same emotion, just one tends to be directed more inwards and the other more outwards.

Yeah it's normal, reasonable, healthy, etc. to feel anger at all the myriad things in the world that are absolutely worth getting angry about. Frankly it would be weirder to look at the world and not feel outraged. For all the emphasis on being somewhat calm and measured and reasonable in interacting with the world, really none of it is saying 'don't confront injustice head on.' The emphasis on equanimity is more about taking an emotional step back so you can see what actions would have the most effect with clearer eyes. Equanimity for no other reason than wanting the veneer of calmness is just numbness or something. On a practical level, that question of 'gently caress the world sucks, how the hell do i do anything to confront the injustice' is really one of the core questions that pretty much everyone and especially every practice place and every tradition grapples with. Imo just find something you find meaningful and sustainable to do that helps in some facet and do what you can, because that's all people really can do.

Basically what I'm getting at is: from what you've said, yeah you're feelings seem entirely reasonable and understandable and even healthy, albeit I'm sure frustrating and at times overwhelming. And yeah there's really no way to side-step feeling anger.

That said, if you need a break from staring at all the hosed up poo poo in the world, by all means take a break to reset. Personally I watch lovely sitcoms or romcoms or just stop reading the news for a while when I find it to be too much, but all that really matters is you find something that works for you.

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

About to lay Chapter 6 of The Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life on you fools.

Shantideva posted:

Chapter 6 � Patience

1
Whatever wholesome deeds.
Such as venerating the Buddhas, and generosity,
That have been amassed over a thousand aeons
Will all be destroyed in one moment of anger.

2
There is no evil like hatred,
And no fortitude like patience.
Thus I should strive in various ways
To meditate on patience.

3
My mind will not experience peace
If it fosters painful thoughts of hatred.
I shall find no joy or happiness;
Unable to sleep, I shall feel unsettled.

4
A master who has hatred
Is in danger of being killed
Even by those who for their wealth and happiness
Depend upon his kindness.

5
By it, friends and relatives are disheartened;
Though drawn by my generosity they will not trust me,
In brief there is nobody
Who lives happily with anger.

6
Hence the enemy, anger,
Creates sufferings such as these,
But whoever assiduously overcomes it
Finds happiness now and hereafter.

7
Having found its fuel of mental unhappiness
In the prevention of what I wish for
And in the doing of what I do not want,
Hatred increases and then destroys me.

8
Therefore I should totally eradicate
The fuel of this enemy;
For this enemy has no other function
Than that of causing me harm.

9
Whatever befalls me I shall not disturb my mental joy;
For having been made unhappy,
I shall not accomplish what I wish
And my virtues will decline.

10
Why be unhappy about something
If it can be remedied?
And what is the use of being unhappy about something
If it cannot be remedied?

# ? Jun 24, 2022 20:11

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

I really needed that post right now thank you

# ? Jun 24, 2022 20:18

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I am flattered at your quotations :shobon:

I was also thinking of anger today. I have been fortunate to have the shelter of many benefits, including the dharma. Individually I can only do so much, but I can do that much...

# ? Jun 24, 2022 20:24

prom candy: Dec 16, 2005; Only I may dance

Something I'm struggling with lately is being against killing and violence but also a lingering belief that violence might be the only way to achieve certain political aims, if not now then in the future. I find it hard to square that.

# ? Jun 25, 2022 21:47

ram dass in hell: Dec 29, 2019; Can't post for 6 hours!

prom candy posted:

Something I'm struggling with lately is being against killing and violence but also a lingering belief that violence might be the only way to achieve certain political aims, if not now then in the future. I find it hard to square that.

the baghavad gita freakin owns

# ? Jun 25, 2022 21:53

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

E4C85D38 fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 25, 2022 22:17

LuckyCat: Jul 26, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Sometimes I feel anxiety when posting so I�ve chosen to post this instead of what I actually posted but basically I was just seconding that the Gita provides a perspective on this convo!

LuckyCat fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 25, 2022 22:27

Cephas: May 11, 2009; Humanity's real enemy is me!
Hya hya foowah!

Ultimately, violence is a basic fact about physical existence. It is the last ditch effort way that is guaranteed to create some kind of outcome. Although I think it rarely creates only the intended outcome. Like a volatile chemical reaction, violence creates unstable byproducts like hate, resentment, fear, trauma, hardened resolve, and a desire for revenge. Violence never "solves" a problem in the sense that no one's mind is changed, no agreement is made--it is purely by force that an outcome is produced. Outside of the injury and loss of life that violence creates, I think these unstable byproducts are another reason why violence to achieve political ends is never the ideal path.

I am extremely skeptical of the idea that one can become a "compassionate, virtuous, unattached killer." I don't believe Buddha has ever counseled anyone that this is a tenable approach to solving conflict.

# ? Jun 25, 2022 23:30

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Those who kill and fight an enemy will never find peace. Only another enemy. And then another and another. So long as an enemy has been perceived the enemy will reinforce without end. Only by killing the very perception of the enemy can peace be found.

# ? Jun 25, 2022 23:49

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

E4C85D38 fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:00

Virgil Vox: Dec 8, 2009

E4C85D38 posted:

edit

If chuds want to kill me then so it will go

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Those who kill and fight an enemy will never find peace. Only another enemy. And then another and another. So long as an enemy has been perceived the enemy will reinforce without end. Only by killing the very perception of the enemy can peace be found.

Virgil Vox fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:28

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

E4C85D38 fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:39

Achmed Jones: Oct 16, 2004

there's a world of difference between "i'm going to hurt somebody who is trying to sexually assault me to make them stop" and using violence to "achieve certain political aims," to quote the post in question

we're mostly laypeople here, there is no expectation that lay buddhists lay down and take violence visited upon them/their family instead of defending themselves. maybe it isn't the most skillful thing in the world, but neither is drinking a beer or eating a hamburger. use some common sense.

picking up a gun and actively going out to hurt people "for the greater good" is a totally different thing. it's loving monstrous and i'll thank you not to conflate them.

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:47

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

i entirely missed that part of the post and thought it said defend against political aims i'm sorry that's not what i wanted to say at all

E4C85D38 fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:50

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

E4C85D38 fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:54

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:42

Achmed Jones: Oct 16, 2004

hysterical "should i just quit being buddhist because i might defend myself???" is so ridiculous that i really am having trouble reading it in good faith instead of as some over-the-top parody or something. like, uh, no. obviously, no, you should not stop following the dharma because you would defend yourself.

just keep on being the type of person who defends themselves and those they love. keep on practicing. maybe some day you'll be so enlightened or whatever that you'd rather die than fight back. probably not

maybe one day i'll be so enlightened that preferring to die instead of defending my son seems anything other than bugfuck crazy. if i ever get there, i'll let you know. in the meantime, i'll keep on practicing the dharma and being as compassionate as i can.

e: mashed post before seeing your above posts; I say as much on below but it's on the next page now and I want to acknowledge that the above isn't accurate wrt. you, E4C85D38. but maybe it's accurate w respect to somebody and I really care a whole, whole lot about fighting back against the whole "i can't be buddhist if i don't do every buddhist thing 100% perfectly all the time" train of thought because I struggled with it for years

Achmed Jones fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jun 26, 2022

# ? Jun 26, 2022 00:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Buddhism Thread: Bitch I just told you about kshitigarbha

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