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Flying-PCP posted:I've seen no evidence that a political entity that doesn't brutalize undocumented immigrants is possible in the US. That poo poo needs to be stopped by force, 'low vote counts' will not help. that's not the bar I set, though the bar I set was 'not operating concentration camps' this is a standard so low that even Obama in term one passed it. is it no longer possible to elect a politician who will not operate concentration camps, in your view
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Jun 26, 2022 19:33
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The GOP is the spree killer and Biden and Pelosi are the cops standing around yelling at parents. Manchin and Collins are the cops tasing parents. The progressive wing of the party are the border patrol asking why nobody is doing anything. Right now we’re still waiting on the Chief telling everyone to hold so they can negotiate while gunfire is audible and the GOP is lining up their next round of executions.
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Jun 26, 2022 19:34
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:that's not the bar I set, though That entirely depends on whether the donor lists that allow the DNC to exist will give their money to one, as well as how the media frames said candidate. I can't say for sure. Flying-PCP fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 19:48
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Sephyr posted:The party is only too happy to waste tons of cash on conservative losers like McGrath I agree with the broad points of your post, but just feel like I need to nitpick your word choice a little bit here. It's important when doing analysis on this poo poo to remember that, much like imperial wars and other things that might feel like a senseless allocation of resources if you're coming at it from a sound moral perspective, there isn't actually money being "wasted." It's not being set on fire, it's going exactly where the stewards of whatever subsystem want it to go. All the money that is often described as "wasted" in the GWoT got funneled into the war industry, and the money that gets "wasted" by Democrats likewise gets funneled into the politics industry. PACs, consultants, friendly ad agencies, legal firms--that whole sprawling apparatus packed with Democrat failkids gets fat off losers like McGrath. The overturn of Roe is an incredibly bountiful harvest for that entire ecosystem. Individual members of it may feel personally unhappy about it, but collectively they're fixing to make some fuckin BANK brother
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Jun 26, 2022 19:50
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I don't believe for a second that a candidate that actually poses a serious threat to the police, religious extremism, fascism, or capital will ever survive the primary. And if they somehow do, they're not going to live long enough to make it to the end of the general election.
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Jun 26, 2022 19:51
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BRJurgis posted:Voting and violent revolution both seem equally unlikely to save us from the course we're on, environmentally or domestically/politically/culturally. The "good" vote (democrats) are more of an impediment to constructive change than an avenue forward, and the increasing terribleness of the Republicans will mean we can never afford not to vote for the party that is demonstratably non-commital or even opposed to doing anything to preserve our state and our world. The bad things are happening, and they're going to get worse. It's not just my pet philosophy, it's the pet philosophy of the political party that constantly makes those who represent your pet philosophy eat poo poo sandwiches for breakfast, lunch and dinner with double helpings for dessert. They do feel strength and community in their hatred. They feel like they're part of a group that isn't other groups and they can punish them and win against them. And looking at the results, can you blame them? They own your point of view, in such a no-holds barred beatdown that if there was a judge they would have called not for the end of a match but a for a coroner. You need actual strength to leverage it. Hate is a proven path to it. Fear is a proven path for it. If the left doesn't even give it a shot, they really can't complain when they eat poo poo every single time when they go with the path that has so far lost. To pretend that this is entirely the fault of a two party system is very strange - there are plenty of two-party system countries without as many issues as yours and there are multi-party systems where 99% of people would choose to move to America instantly. Your problem is a) the Republican Party, and b) people who don't do enough against the Republican Party. Neither of those things would change in a multi-party system. Either the Republican Party would rule as the largest party, or it would rule in coalition with whatever party or two the shitlibs would form after they don't even have to pay lip service to the issues the Left cares about. And I hate to tell you but other countries didn't get to a point where better things were possible with your way of thinking either. They did with mine. I'm actually probably less unbelievably cynical and disgusted with Americans then you are. I don't blame anyone for voting for Democrats - if the options were the GOP or the HitlerStalin Party I wouldn't blame anyone for voting for the GOP either. I think most Americans are by and large pretty decent folk. It's the absolute refusal to deal with the worst among you in order to make it better for the rest that I simply find confounding. That I think that Americans are primed for fear and hate isn't a condemnation against them. All of us are. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 20:04
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I agree with the broad points of your post, but just feel like I need to nitpick your word choice a little bit here. It's important when doing analysis on this poo poo to remember that, much like imperial wars and other things that might feel like a senseless allocation of resources if you're coming at it from a sound moral perspective, there isn't actually money being "wasted." It's not being set on fire, it's going exactly where the stewards of whatever subsystem want it to go. All the money that is often described as "wasted" in the GWoT got funneled into the war industry, and the money that gets "wasted" by Democrats likewise gets funneled into the politics industry. PACs, consultants, friendly ad agencies, legal firms--that whole sprawling apparatus packed with Democrat failkids gets fat off losers like McGrath. The overturn of Roe is an incredibly bountiful harvest for that entire ecosystem. Individual members of it may feel personally unhappy about it, but collectively they're fixing to make some fuckin BANK brother Oh, agreed on all accounts! I meant 'wasted' in regard of achieving any professed progressive goal. But yes, this kind of expensive defeat is actually the health of the current party. Tens of million funneled into consultants, ads, advisors, but no victory that brings with it the responsibility to deliver on anything. In fact, it just doubles the stakes: the next election will be even MORE "the most important 5evar!" than this one, so be sure to donate. Has anyone other than AOC mentioned impeaching the justices that lied under oath on Roe. ? If not, why not? For any power, left or right, that had a serious power project, this would be a once-in-a-lifetime gift: three lifelong seats that you get to try and flip, all at once! And if you fail, at least you showed your base you have some fight in you. But hey, Obama could not be arsed to fight for a single empty seat during his term. When defeat gets you everything you -really- want, it's irrational to win.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:06
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:imagine if, in the story, after the man is humiliated, he announces "it is a good thing i did not take off my clothes." I'm not sure if I follow. It was a good thing that he didn't take off his clothes. Are you saying it wasn't? We need more people who are willing to resist illegitimate institutions, even if they risk putting themselves in harm's way. I wish I was as brave as that man. I don't "accept" those immigrant camps as legitimate, for example, but the people running them think they're plenty legitimate, and they have guns and are willing to use them. You can say that I'm legitimizing those camps by not fighting them, just as the Palestinian man would have been legitimizing the authority of that soldier if he listened to him. Sadly, I'm not willing to give up my comfortable American life of civil rights and healthcare and social services in order to fight against them. Maybe I should, since a movement on that level is probably what it will take to make substantive forward change. If you say this means I'm doing "gently caress you got mine", well, essentially you're right, and I can't deny that. But for the record, I've personally been arrested for participating in direct actions against a nearby immigrant child detention center, AND continue to vote democrat when it's a close race. You can do both. Use every sliver of power at your disposal.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:08
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Elias_Maluco posted:Question from a non-american: how that works? I mean, how do you prove you are living " paycheck to paycheck"? Answer: You can't, unless you are certain to not make over the equivalent of $9/hour as a fulltime job year round, bc you can be forced to repay the state for medical care expended on your behalf if you make the equivalent of $10/hour. The means-testing for Medicaid eligibility is byzantine & slow; it can take up to six months for the state to determine it, and if you cover your elderly rear end by applying for private insurance, as I did waiting for a determination several years ago, you can later be forced to repay thousands of dollars in subsidies that the government gave your private insurer--whether you used the insurance coverage or not. NY might have some supplemental state programs that provide more taxpayers' dollars to private insurers than other states, but NYC is one of the top 3 most expensive cities to live in across the country, so it's quite the conundrum of how one can afford rent while not earning more than $9/hour.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:12
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Rigel posted:He's just talking about means testing. Showing you have low income and that you don't have a lot of cash in the bank. Medicaid eligibility under the ACA expansion doesn't take one's assets into account; it's purely income-based.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:13
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Willa Rogers posted:Medicaid eligibility under the ACA expansion doesn't take one's assets into account; it's purely income-based. I might have been thinking about Medicaid's long term care, where nursing homes make you spend down your assets.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:21
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^^^ Yes, Medicaid clawback for 55+ is horrendous, and too many blue states have opted in, included true-blue California. Non-expansion states under the ACA likely also have assets tests for <55 Medicaid.Liquid Communism posted:Yep. People really forget how hard they ratfucked Sanders, then turned around and blamed every inability to act on him 'splitting the vote' somehow so they didn't get enough support in Congress. I had to look up the results of the California Dem primary a while back because I couldn't recall if Bernie won (he did!) since it took weeks for the state to release the final results.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:23
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Ravenfood posted:It could be many things. Either they are not concerned with immediate outcomes, believe that inaction is somehow morally different from action, believe in accelerationism, somehow believe that...not voting or protest voting will actually produce change, or are deontologists. Who said anything about inaction? Voting for the Democrats who have demonstrated time and time again that they are unable to act is inaction. The Democrats are letting these things happen. The Democrats have had an ample amount of times to codify Roe and to remove the Hyde Amendment, but they didn't and now we are in this mess, but you want to keep voting for them? Pelosi said that abortion rights and other ideological issues (trans rights, BLM, etc) shouldn't be the priority for the party because it's scaring away conservative voters, you know, the voters who don't want abortions or don't think trans people should have rights or think that having more police subjugate black people is alright. Why do you want to vote for that kind of party? This is not to say to never vote for any democrat. I still vote for democrats that I feel best represent me, but there are very, very few of them. Voting blue no matter who is just folly and counterproductive.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:23
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Rigel posted:I might have been thinking about Medicaid's long term care, where nursing homes make you spend down your assets. This is called the donut hole and it’s why i tell all my patients with new, progressive diagnoses to make sure they don’t legally own anything like a boat, car, retirement fund etc because it can take over a year to legally do this and they want to be prepared when the time comes.
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Jun 26, 2022 20:35
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The dems are losing people. There are people in this thread who have been lost. This is a consequence of dems sucking and the material conditions getting worse. I know it's tempting to try to argue people back into the fold but the reality is SA is a microcosm. Even if you successfully argue with every SA poster into voting blue, you won't make a dent in the overall trend among leftists and progressives across the country. It may be satisfying to vent your frustration against that mindset but it is probably more useful to consider how to win those people back nationally. And before someone says lol just debating on the D&D forum there are probably better ideas to argue because if you want people to vote blue in a quantity that matters this is a losing strategy.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:14
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The Internet Leftist hot takes are that the Democrats are magically responsible for the overturn of Roe v Wade, while mainstream Democrats were saying all along, "If you give these nuts any amount of power, bad things will happen." And the Internet Leftist hot take in 2016 was Don't Vote Democrat. Accelerationism doesn't work in the direction Internet Leftists thought it would.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:20
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It’s the candidate’s job to convince people to vote for them. That’s pretty much the entire issue. The democrats dug their own grave because they couldn’t deliver enough things that were important to people. That’s it.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:22
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Joe Biden's latest polling numbers from CBS/YouGov are 59 disapprove/41 approve: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/economy-personal-finances-opinion-poll-2022-06-26/ He continues to poll worse than Trump did at this point in his presidency: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/ The people aren't wrong: Joe Biden and the Democrats are failures and the "party" deserves what is coming in November.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:24
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MadJackal posted:The Internet Leftist hot takes are that the Democrats are magically responsible for the overturn of Roe v Wade, while mainstream Democrats were saying all along, "If you give these nuts any amount of power, bad things will happen." If you're actually reading anybody's posts you will find that people have clearly and repeatedly explained how the dems have hosed up and allowed Roe to be overturned. Stop making poo poo up.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:24
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MadJackal posted:The Internet Leftist hot takes are that the Democrats are magically responsible for the overturn of Roe v Wade, while mainstream Democrats were saying all along, "If you give these nuts any amount of power, bad things will happen." leftists, at least ones who voted for bernie, voted for hillary in huge loving numbers, though.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:27
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MadJackal posted:The Internet Leftist hot takes are that the Democrats are magically responsible for the overturn of Roe v Wade, while mainstream Democrats were saying all along, "If you give these nuts any amount of power, bad things will happen." It wasn't internet leftists putting a pro-abortion politician as Hillary's VP, or campaigning for another three weeks back. It wasn't internet leftists telling everyone that once Biden won, the Republicans would just revert back to being nice reasonable chaps we can all hug. It wasn't internet leftists gushing repeatedly about wanting a STRONG REPUBLICAN PARTY. Or hugging Lindsay freaking Graham after confirming a tehocrat to the supreme court, saying it was "one of the best hearings ever!" No, that was the party leadership.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:29
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MadJackal posted:The Internet Leftist hot takes are that the Democrats are magically responsible for the overturn of Roe v Wade, while mainstream Democrats were saying all along, "If you give these nuts any amount of power, bad things will happen." Please don't ever be my doctor. I don't go to the teddy bear clinic so I'll be fine but drat this is dumb. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 26, 2022 21:34
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I AM GRANDO posted:It’s the candidate’s job to convince people to vote for them. That’s pretty much the entire issue. The democrats dug their own grave because they couldn’t deliver enough things that were important to people. That’s it.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:39
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B B posted:Joe Biden's latest polling numbers from CBS/YouGov are 59 disapprove/41 approve: Some of those slides are brutal for Dem chances in November, and they also buttress my belief that Biden will be talked out of running for reelection:   
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Jun 26, 2022 21:39
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It definitely wasn't internet leftists who told Ginsberg not to retire when she had the chance. It wasn't internet leftists who told Obama to drop his campaign promise to codify Roe. It wasn't internet leftists who told Obama "they go low we go high" when McConnell was flagrantly stealing a supreme court seat. How willfully blind do you have to be to see that the Dems have not upheld their side of the bargain?
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Jun 26, 2022 21:41
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Does Biden even really want to run? I guess there’s no way for us to know, but when my grandpa was 80, he mostly liked naps. Also he was dead three years later.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:42
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I literally make my vote so conditional on issues that I just don't vote anymore and I think or argue about voting less than half this thread lol, if it doesn't matter then stop screaming about it jesus christ. If it does matter then go and do it. I think it's about time this whole thing got moved to the thread dedicated to the midterms and electoralism generally: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4002330. Maybe some progress can be made on the debate with a little more focus. Also please refrain from attacking posters directly, if I see any more of it and have to wake my dog up to move rooms to hit they're going to start at 18 hours as compensation to elderly terriers.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:43
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I AM GRANDO posted:Does Biden even really want to run? I guess there’s no way for us to know, but when my grandpa was 80, he mostly liked naps. Also he was dead three years later. Biden has announced his intention to run, but as I said yesterday, the fact that prominent Dems on & off the record are saying he's not up to the job augurs that he'll be persuaded to step down.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:44
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Panzeh posted:It's very much a weird politics of pure vibes. If you get yourself hopped up on internet-sponsored anger, it will overcome any problem, obviously. In historical terms it's closer to the german outcome than the russian outcome. A big flaming stink posted:leftists, at least ones who voted for bernie, voted for hillary in huge loving numbers, though. This is really something lol. how tf are leftism and voting for hillary rodham clinton compatible Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 21:45
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It's still bizarre to me that a majority of Americans say their personal financial situation is fairly good or very good and only 17% say their personal situation is "very bad," but 76% say the economy overall is very bad. Those assessments basically mirrored each other for 60 years (i.e. If people felt the economy was bad, they would say their personal situation was bad or getting worse and vice-versa), but the two assessments departed in 2020 and still haven't returned to each other. And, there still isn't an explanation for why it happened or why it continues to happen. It will be interesting to see if they ever get a clear explanation for that. There was a hypothesis that people felt that "shutdowns = bad economy" or that people assumed everyone else was doing way worse than they were because of pandemic aid, but there haven't been major shutdowns or significant changes to pandemic aid for almost 2 years, so those theories seem to be out the window.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It's still bizarre to me that a majority of Americans say their personal financial situation is fairly good or very good and only 17% say their personal situation is "very bad," but 76% say the economy overall is very bad. Could it correspond to a greater sense of precarity? "Sure, my situation is good now, but that could change at any moment, so I would describe the economy overall as quite bad."
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Jun 26, 2022 21:52
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I AM GRANDO posted:Does Biden even really want to run? I guess there’s no way for us to know, but when my grandpa was 80, he mostly liked naps. Also he was dead three years later. As bad as biden was on the trail and debates in 20, he’s worse now, and at his age the decline isn’t not linear. There’s already been plenty of anonymous quotes which sound a whole lot like his aides don’t want him speaking extemporaneously.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It's still bizarre to me that a majority of Americans say their personal financial situation is fairly good or very good and only 17% say their personal situation is "very bad," but 76% say the economy overall is very bad. It's the barest of majorities at 50 percent, and has dropped 10 points in the last year. Civilized Fishbot posted:Could it correspond to a greater sense of precarity? "Sure, my situation is good now, but that could change at any moment, so I would describe the economy overall as quite bad." Yeah, I think this is a big part of it. Not knowing whether you can afford your rent being jacked by 25 percent, or whether you'll be able to find formula to feed your baby, can do a number on your idea of financial security. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 21:54
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speng31b posted:in circumstances where people see their lives positively impacted by Democrats following through on their promises effectively they get more votes, yep I think you have the cause and effect mixed up. The city does not vote for Democrats because they give them good things; Democrats give them good things because they're the majority, consistently. Most vote for Democrats in NYC due to the culture of the city - Democrats are the only game in town. Some of the wealthiest zip codes in Manhattan vote the HARDEST for Democrats, who promise to keep their taxes high and partly use those taxes to pay for services for poorer people, something that does not directly benefit the rich. The areas that vote the HARDEST for Republicans, like Brighton Beach, have little old Russian immigrant ladies and their husbands who are all on SSI and Medicaid. These people typically vote Republican. An elderly family friend who is very poor and on Medicaid still votes for Republicans. Staten Island votes hard for Republicans. Italian neighborhoods vote for Republicans. In most of these instances, the voters vote against their self-interests, either directly or indirectly.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:56
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Could it correspond to a greater sense of precarity? "Sure, my situation is good now, but that could change at any moment, so I would describe the economy overall as quite bad." My personal hypothesis is that republican voters have been radicalized to the point that no matter how well they or their friends are doing financially, if there is currently a democratic president, they will say that [insert issue here] is bad/being run terribly. e: Anecdotally speaking, the few republicans I know and still talk to have communicated that they feel exactly this way. They’re doing great but they would be doing SO MUCH BETTER if Biden weren’t president. enahs fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 21:56
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Willa Rogers posted:It's the barest of majorities at 50 percent, and has dropped 10 points in the last year. I think you missed the point. It's the enormous gap between the two figures and not the figures themselves. Although, the "very bad" personal economic situation being only 17% is a little surprising. Civilized Fishbot posted:Could it correspond to a greater sense of precarity? "Sure, my situation is good now, but that could change at any moment, so I would describe the economy overall as quite bad." I think that is probably a good guess, but also people who are very wealthy are experiencing this split and some people are still saying their personal situation is getting worse, so it isn't 100% feelings of precariousness. enahs posted:My personal hypothesis is that republican voters have been radicalized to the point that no matter how well they or their friends are doing financially, if there is currently a democratic president, they will say that [insert issue here] is bad/being run terribly. But, they would also say that they are doing well economically under the Democratic president? Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 21:57
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enahs posted:My personal hypothesis is that republican voters have been radicalized to the point that no matter how well they or their friends are doing financially, if there is currently a democratic president, they will say that [insert issue here] is bad/being run terribly. But this is mirrored by Dem voters; you can see the lines in the graphs literally cross each other & move in opposite directions beginning in Jan. 2021 as to whether a party's voters thought the economy was doing well or poorly. Indy voters, otoh, started out much closer to Dems in sentiment about the economy and now have moved much closer to Republicans.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:59
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It's still bizarre to me that a majority of Americans say their personal financial situation is fairly good or very good and only 17% say their personal situation is "very bad," but 76% say the economy overall is very bad. I've honestly been looking for more research/info on this, myself. Like, I know that the economy is not just numbers, and the whole 4% unemployment stat is likely massaged to hell and back, along with others. But it really does feel like people have whined a lot less under far worse contractions. Maybe it is because of a sense of direction? Things might have been worse, but they saw new gains like smartphones and such making life more convenient/interesting, and violence that even while higher than now was declining. Meanwhile, now they perceive on some level the friction taking a toll on their system: more homeless people, safe places seemingly becoming unsafe. People are also just malleable and hypocritical. Hell, here in Brazil, 4 years back the people were rioting over gas being 2.80 bucks a litre (a quarter/gallon) under a labour government. Now, under a different, absurdly corrupt and incompetent government, it has gone up to 7.20 bucks a litre and no one says a peep.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:00
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Also I’d like to point out that at no point in Biden’s career would he have been up to this moment. It is difficult to imagine a dem less equipped and willing to deal with the crises at hand.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:01
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Willa Rogers posted:But this is mirrored by Dem voters; you can see the lines in the graphs literally cross each other & move in opposite directions beginning in Jan. 2021 as to whether a party's voters thought the economy was doing well or poorly. Fair enough, I think there are a lot of reasons contributing to the overall sentiment. Personally my financial situation is significantly worse off than it was before the pandemic, and even though it is looking to improve soon, I still feel a lot of anxiety and uncertainty that it will last. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:But, they would also say that they are doing well economically under the Democratic president? I think it’s hard to say you’re not doing well after buying multiple investment properties, but I’m sure my anecdotal experience isn’t universally true. enahs fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 22:02
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