|
Something something THE LORE something something They're better at not hiding this kind of thing now. Fewer hidden stuff in DS3 and even less in Elden Ring
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 10:13 |
|
|
Natural 20 posted:WHYYYYYYY?  .Honestly, it doesn't matter. BB is not a game that wants you to pick a weapon for the situation. It's perfectly happy if you choose one weapon and stick with it the entire game. There's tons of hidden advantages weapons have, e.g. thrusting damage it sometimes really good against some enemies, the Axe has much higher Rally potential natively than the Cane has (but it's not serrated), and so on. If "third hit of the combo has 1.17 times damage multiplier" would be shown, people would (rightfully!) complain that the menu is overloaded with information.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:50
|
|
|
I'm not even sure if it's explicitly stated anywhere that fire does extra damage against beasts, but that one's probably easy enough to figure out from context clues. In fact, as Slaan mentioned, Bloodborne is still from the phase of FromSoft games where they experimented quite a lot with conveying gameplay mechanics through environmental storytelling and implication only.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 00:36
|
|
|
I've just had a flash of insight, there is a delightful stained glass window inside my skull spelling out "CUT OFF THEIR LIMBS".
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 01:02
|
|
|
SIGSEGV posted:I've just had a flash of insight, there is a delightful stained glass window inside my skull spelling out "CUT OFF THEIR LIMBS". Dead Space reference in a FROM game
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 09:35
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:WHYYYYYYY? As someone experienced with Fromsoft games, this is normal
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 14:25
|
|
|
Elden Ring is a lot better about it even if some interactions are only ever told in item descriptions, at least they are told.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 16:28
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2022 00:00
|
|
|
Hell yeah Alfred, finally someone who's on the level - reiterating that you can visceral with any weapon in any form - armor stats are generally whatever. The difference between 90 and 110 physical is meaningless. Only the starting armor and a few joke pieces have actually bad stats and you'll feel the extra damage. Also, there IS a tradeoff which is actually shown but who cares about numbers, amirite? Gascoigne's set has the highest poison resistance in the game. - stamina is not worthless, but its actual value is dependent on what you're using. E.g. if you're using a heavy weapon that drains your whole bar with two swings, and then you can't dodge, you probably will want some more bar. Other weapons have super long combos and the damage actually increases as the combo goes on, so you want to have enough for the full combo AND a safety dodge - dogs are in fact the worst enemy in any From game
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2022 00:29
|
|
|
It's probably worth pointing out at this point that, generally speaking, hitstun is somewhat proportional to a weapon's size/bulk. Like, the saw spear was clearly applying more hitstun to the Cleric Beat (read: any at all) than the threaded cane. If you want to be able to sometimes knock enemies out of their attacks, you'll want a bigger, heavier weapon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2022 00:58
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:Hell yeah Alfred, finally someone who's on the level Stamina isn't worthless but it's defined by marginal effect. It's only going to do anything when the increase provides an extra action. On the comparative the marginal effect of a point of health is around a 3% life increase. If each blood vial grants a 40% heal then the marginal effect on overall HP from a point of HP is around 30% of a life bar, give or take. And if there are weapons with long combos with increasing damage, I've not encountered them, nor would I reasonably have any reason to believe that such a system existed. (Very technically that's also a spoiler on a game mechanic I've not encountered yet, but it's obviously meant in good faith so I understand the game better) Which is unfortunate given there doesn't seem to be an ability to respec and if I die twice I lose all my level up points, encouraging me to aggressively spend down to 0.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 16:13
|
|
|
I absolutely get where you're coming from; I kind of had the same misgivings about Mind in Elden Ring, which ONLY increases FP (mana), so it felt a lot like a "spend 4 points so you can cast once more" tax, and that seemed bad. However, there's certain abilities you need a relatively high minimum amount of FP for, so in that sense, it's like statting Str for requirements, which is normal. And you can see it the same way in BB: having a baseline of stamina unlocks certain abilities. Another comparison: there's (minor ER mechanics spoilers, game tells you about them tho) spells you can keep casting with little cooldown as long as you have FP and stamina, and the BB mechanic I mentioned is similar in that a longer bar will allow you to blitz something down you can't otherwise. But yeah, you are correct, you're not going to see an immediate benefit for each point in End, and you should spend your Echoes instead of hoarding them. Imo you should just be open about the general benefits of putting a few points into End in the future, especially if you end up switching weapons. Sorry about that spoiler btw, but I feel like you're not the kind of player that upon getting a new weapon tests the entire moveset for half an hour and evaluates if it's worth switching (and it's still not obvious that a weapon is a "combo me please" one). I can be less detailed in the future of course.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 17:13
|
|
|
I do see a bit of an oversight with pumping vitality, and it's the same flaw that the stamina has. It only actually matters when it crosses a threshold. The fact that it scales the blood vial healing causes it to cross those thresholds far more often like you pointed out, but you aren't using all your blood vials in the boss fights (the ones we see, anyway) so your likelihood of crossing a threshold that actually matters is also less than the straight math suggests. If it's about maximizing your ability to cross thresholds, I'd assume the real stat to pump would be damage. You need to hit the enemy far more than they need to hit you to die, so a 5% increase in damage should reduce the number of attacks you make more than a 5% bump in health lets you take. Less time spent in a fight is also less time to make mistakes, which are what really kill you in a game like this. Really, all you're doing is figuring out what tradeoffs work out best for you, the player. If you feel like you're not attacking enough because you need too many dodges to stay safe or, worse yet, taking hits because you run out of stamina at any point, pump endurance. If you don't have enough health to survive at least one (preferably two with a partial heal, I assume more safety is wishful thinking) wombo-combos from the boss, pump vitality. If you're doing decent with both but you make mistakes as time goes on (or you're impatient) then pump damage stats to shorten the time you need to play at your peak. All that said, I haven't actually played Bloodbourne. Still, I've heard enough good things about it that I assume it doesn't make major design oversights like having one god stat or completely stopping your progress since you chose to allocate your points incorrectly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 17:48
|
|
|
OneWingedDevil posted:I do see a bit of an oversight with pumping vitality, and it's the same flaw that the stamina has. It only actually matters when it crosses a threshold. The fact that it scales the blood vial healing causes it to cross those thresholds far more often like you pointed out, but you aren't using all your blood vials in the boss fights (the ones we see, anyway) so your likelihood of crossing a threshold that actually matters is also less than the straight math suggests. I think this is really interesting and a really good point to make. In theory if that extra 30% at the end isn't actually used then you're absolutely right, the margin on HP technically doesn't matter. There are two reasons I think that makes this line of thinking incomplete. The first is that the extra bit on each bar of HP makes it more likely that you don't get one/two/whatever shot. Which means you're more able to use the healing available to you. (which you mention later actually, so not really incomplete) The second is that the extra healing that HP provides (around 1.x% per vial) makes vials more valuable if that makes sense. You use fewer vials in the long run because each vial heals you for more. So there's a real effect beyond just the margin of "Did the extra 33% let me succeed." OneWingedDevil posted:If it's about maximizing your ability to cross thresholds, I'd assume the real stat to pump would be damage. You need to hit the enemy far more than they need to hit you to die, so a 5% increase in damage should reduce the number of attacks you make more than a 5% bump in health lets you take. Less time spent in a fight is also less time to make mistakes, which are what really kill you in a game like this. Yup and I broadly agree with this. What I'm trying to do with damage is take note of how many hits it takes to kill common opponents. Then if I think extra damage is going to reduce the number of hits from let's say 4 to 3, I go into damage on my next level up and see if it worked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 18:36
|
|
|
The "one more strike" thing is not the whole of stamina, after all in this game aggression is turned up significantly and you'll know the joy of having to dodge while you're trying to recover after placing in a few swings, slapping in a blood vial, fleeing an AoE, and so on. Even a few points of extra stamina mean you don't get pasted while backing off, basically the same marginal effectiveness theory you have for health.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 19:03
|
|
|
thanks to soft caps on stats (eg. past a certain point, gains per point crater), you'll end up getting both endurance and vitality eventually, just a matter of priorities for your preferred style of play. Just start hammering points into endurance once/if you start feeling pressure on your stamina. Eventually there will be times where you'll need to dodge several times in a row and you'll really be feeling a low stamina bar then.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 19:51
|
|
|
Personally, I feel like it's extremely hard to argue about stats and the statting thereof itt because Nat's going to say "well with my extremely incomplete information," and all the people who've played the game are going to have to tightrope around those gaps in knowledge in order not to spoil anything. Imo just play and you'll see at some point that there's going to be gaps to be filled: you die too often or you notice that you can't dodge as often as you need to or your damage feels lacking, and then you stat what you were missing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 20:03
|
|
|
Clearly the Answer is making Nat20 play other FromSoft games.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 20:46
|
|
|
Yeah, let's start with AC4A, that one is good, clean fun.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 20:53
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:Personally, I feel like it's extremely hard to argue about stats and the statting thereof itt because Nat's going to say "well with my extremely incomplete information," and all the people who've played the game are going to have to tightrope around those gaps in knowledge in order not to spoil anything. Imo just play and you'll see at some point that there's going to be gaps to be filled: you die too often or you notice that you can't dodge as often as you need to or your damage feels lacking, and then you stat what you were missing. Yeah absolutely. I just wanted to clarify my logic since I'm aware it probably doesn't come through as well when it's part of my stream of consciousness.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 21:42
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:The second is that the extra healing that HP provides (around 1.x% per vial) makes vials more valuable if that makes sense. You use fewer vials in the long run because each vial heals you for more. It does make sense. I haven't been factoring in overall resource consumption long-term since it seems immaterial. You're accumulating far more vials than you're spending, and while Tea mentioned (or was it this thread?) that blood vial collection drops off later and you may have to farm, the level-up mechanics encourage dumping excess blood echoes into blood vials anyway. A farming run seems to be one of those things a player has to put up with since they've beaten themself bloody against something for too long and it's their fault for not trying a different place or finding better ways to optimize their loadout. Feels wrong to factor that into these stat allocations as a result. If you've needed to do a farming run, then you've probably got a much better idea of how relevant the timesink of grinding resources vs. the timesink of spending said resources on a boss is than I do. Did you need to do that during the off-camera Father Gascoigne fights?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 21:47
|
|
|
SIGSEGV posted:Yeah, let's start with AC4A, that one is good, clean fun. If we are doing AC we should start with the original and then mix in the good ones. YorkshireTea, make Nat20 play the AC series, let's see what god gaming Nat can do there. AtomikKrab fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jul 4, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 22:27
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 22:35
|
|
|
ah yes, Gatling Sniper
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 23:21
|
|
|
ITT we stan the president of the Yharnam Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Beasts
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2022 23:35
|
|
|
Now that's a bloodtinge gimmick build!
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2022 01:46
|
|
|
Pumping stats up just high enough to get access to new weapons is a fairly worthwhile use of them in other games of this type. You've already had one boss fight where the versatility of having two different weapons available was a big help.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2022 02:36
|
|
|
Nat you want to get other stats up just so you can play with some of the more interesting weapon choices.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2022 03:15
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2022 22:58
|
|
|
Nat, I like to try out everything at least once and then go with what I find clicks best with me, Also Nat, really you are running into an issue where you are trying to manipulate the game so much that it is detrimental to your play and enjoyment. That segment in the start of the video, that gallery there he can't actually gatling you, but you were so shook you pulled everything slowly. With the Hunter enemy, you were far too stuck on trying to do the "One trick shot into stab" and you wasted a lot of time and health as well as allowing the enemy to dictate the fight pace. At the same time when it got down to the sticks and you actually focused and tried things you were able to get down the enemies pattern enough to prepare enhanced stabs in advance and take them down relatively quickly at the end.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2022 23:41
|
|
|
Tea's commentary about efficiency at the end kind of misses the point a bit. He puts it in terms of "needing a handicap", which isn't really correct. Efficiency comes at a cost, a very real one. What that cost is varies from game to game. Sometimes the "most efficient" path involves fighting very boringly or overthinking everything to death, but it can also make things more difficult (because the most resource efficient way is harder than just charging in and spending resources to advance), or blind you to other options.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 01:28
|
|
|
Yeah I think that Tea's description of my method as "efficient" isn't really correct, but in the video I struggle to articulate why whilst I'm also playing the game. My method is safe. I don't know where Gatling gun fire is going to come from so I slow pull things to areas where I know I'm not going to be shot at. The reason I'm playing this way is because I don't know where the next shortcut back or save point is, so in theory if i go slowly and expend fewer resources because everything is very safe, I'll get further into the level. And that actually works out. (Slight spoilers here for the next video) I don't know at this point that the hunter here doesn't respawn. But my slow pace gave me a lot of resources to take him on with, meaning I could spend the first two thirds of the fight trying to fish for a parry and still have enough in the tank to adapt my strategy when it became obvious that it wasn't going to work. It's definitely not what I would call efficient because the time loss is severe. And to me efficiency is represented by the minimisation of resource loss, with the understanding that time is also a resource. Extra time I spend doing something might have been spent doing the central yharnam brick troll loop to get more blood vials for example.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 12:15
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2022 23:32
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:Personally, I feel like it's extremely hard to argue about stats and the statting thereof itt because Nat's going to say "well with my extremely incomplete information," and all the people who've played the game are going to have to tightrope around those gaps in knowledge in order not to spoil anything. Imo just play and you'll see at some point that there's going to be gaps to be filled: you die too often or you notice that you can't dodge as often as you need to or your damage feels lacking, and then you stat what you were missing. I was wondering if we’ve gotten to the point where people could do mathematical breakdowns of what stats do and what you get per level up. I think that would have a stronger influence on Nat’s decision making than asking if he feels like he isn’t dodging as much as he could be. Also now that status effects like slow and rapid poison have come up are there ways to deal with them other than dodging attacks or using items like antidotes? Do any stats reduce the damage you take from them, or slow down the bar’s building up/speed up its emptying?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 01:54
|
|
|
Yeah I'm going to say feel free at this point. Just had a recording session with Tea and we don't get into it but I've been basically flexing stuff myself and writing down formulae in excel for what I think things do. The results are pretty significant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 02:47
|
|
|
 Sorry for the lateness of this episode. The heat here has not been good to me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2022 10:39
|
|
|
Check out your blood gem fortification screen again. Upgrading the cane did something
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2022 13:25
|
|
|
Slaan posted:Check out your blood gem fortification screen again. Upgrading the cane did something Yes, Go back, GO BACK and look at your cane
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2022 14:02
|
|
|
Bullets are a limited resource, but here's a hot tip based entirely on information you already got: whenever you are hurt just a bit and want to top off, make blood bullets first, then top off. Five free bullets! And whenever you foresee needing to parry a lot, just make them regardless and heal - you lose out on maximum efficiency because you overheal, but 5 bullets cost more than 1 (or technically, 1.5) blood vials. Mega balls move: make blood bullets, then hit a nearby enemy to heal.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2022 15:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 10:13 |
|
|
Simply Simon posted:Mega balls move: make blood bullets, then hit a nearby enemy to heal. Um, excuse me, I've turned all my blood into bullets. Do you suppose I could have some of yours? plunges fist into viscera and takes it
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2022 21:30
|
|
