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Keyser_Soze posted:Pete is a centrist cyborg but is at least "electable" and could win against the fundy fascist chuds and can also discuss things without drooling all over himself or screaming and farting like Dumb Donnie. Speaking of Kamala https://twitter.com/juleneely/status/1542970922994384899?t=k31nMJEHXPgaHvtMRWxbJw&s=19 This is electoral malpractice lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2022 00:24
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Keyser_Soze posted:Pete is a centrist cyborg but is at least "electable" and could win against the fundy fascist chuds and can also discuss things without drooling all over himself or screaming and farting like Dumb Donnie. By Pete do you mean Pete Buttigieg? Because there is really very little evidence that he’s electable. He has a shocking amount of baggage for someone who has done so little. I’m not sure why you think he could win against anyone.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:25
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Or, hear me out, Biden could simply just not do a deal that involves getting peanuts in return for he himself personally legitimizing a Federalist Society psycho right after that org just successfully overturned Roe Biden is out dated and the wrong guy at the wrong time; fully unequipped to deal with the vast array of modern problems we face on basically any issue. It's really frustrating because, to my eyes anyway, Obama was naive and in over his head, yet campaigned on the right things, but Biden doesn't have that excuse and it's kinda the other way around where he views things and how problems get solved as the way things used to be. You'd think he'd loving know better and you'd imagine that Obama might have picked up on the idea that you can not work or compromise with these people after at least one term. But here we are. Biden is going to go down as one of the worst presidents within my lifetime on his Jimmy Carter 2.0 speed run but without any of Carter's basic sense of decency and knowing what was right. Joe Biden is not going to do a loving thing for anyone and the entire country knows it.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:30
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A big flaming stink posted:Speaking of Kamala I’m convinced Harris is like an empty suit piloted by Clintonists who are just taking the piss out of her and laughing behind her back waiting for their Queen Hildog to come back Gatts fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 00:32
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Gripweed posted:By Pete do you mean Pete Buttigieg? Because there is really very little evidence that he’s electable. He has a shocking amount of baggage for someone who has done so little. I’m not sure why you think he could win against anyone. Well for starters, he could run for a congressional spot that wasn't too chudly, no?
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Jul 2, 2022 00:36
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Jimmy Carter speed run? Really not getting the comparisons between Biden and Carter. Granted Carter was before my time, but from what I've read about the guy he seems like he was on the right side of history on most things and was sure as poo poo less evil than the guy who came after him (Ronald "let's ignore AIDS and destroy unions" Reagan).
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Jul 2, 2022 00:42
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Jimmy Carter speed run? Really not getting the comparisons between Biden and Carter. Granted Carter was before my time, but from what I've read about the guy he seems like he was on the right side of history on most things and was sure as poo poo less evil than the guy who came after him (Ronald "let's ignore AIDS and destroy unions" Reagan). Carter was a complete catastrophe in office, including feuding with democrat leaders in Congress to the point he threatened to veto a universal healthcare bill
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Jul 2, 2022 00:46
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As a reminder, when discussing presidential candidates, please keep the material interesting. That is to say, avoid unsupported expressions of your feelings on them and stick to facts about them or original arguments for why they would or would not be a good choice. This isn't directed at anyone in particular.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:53
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:"The Republicans never actually wanted to get rid of Roe and winning is going to backfire on them" is just liberal coping strategy. Saying you're going to do something and then doing it when you have the chance makes your base trust you. Running on things you don't actually want to do and then throwing up excuses when you're in position to do so demoralizes your base. Like you can just hop on Twitter right now and watch in real time as many of the staunchest historical Dem defenders slide into despair at how feeble and insincere the Democrat response is. Maybe they'll all fall back in line by November but right now next to nobody actually expects the Democrats to do anything about this even if they win The culture warriors absolutely wanted Roe v Wade overturned, it was the only reason to care about politics, and consequences don't matter. The fiscal conservatives and the politicians who really only care about winning elections, for whom the christian extremists were only convenient allies useful only for their votes, probably did not want it overturned.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:56
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Jimmy Carter speed run? Really not getting the comparisons between Biden and Carter. Granted Carter was before my time, but from what I've read about the guy he seems like he was on the right side of history on most things and was sure as poo poo less evil than the guy who came after him (Ronald "let's ignore AIDS and destroy unions" Reagan). People compare Biden and Carter because both of them are milquetoast Democrats whose administrations were both besieged by runaway inflation and a host of crises that they completely failed to coordinate effective responses to. Carter being less evil than Reagan has nothing to do with it.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:57
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Rigel posted:The culture warriors absolutely wanted Roe v Wade overturned, it was the only reason to care about politics, and consequences don't matter. And you base this on what?
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Jul 2, 2022 01:01
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Jimmy Carter speed run? Really not getting the comparisons between Biden and Carter. Granted Carter was before my time, but from what I've read about the guy he seems like he was on the right side of history on most things and was sure as poo poo less evil than the guy who came after him (Ronald "let's ignore AIDS and destroy unions" Reagan). Carter's administration trial tested many of the policies Reagen's administraton implemented.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:03
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:And you base this on what? This is common knowledge. Are you not old enough to know that fiscal conservatives have been using christian extremists for decades, trying to throw them the bare minimum number of bones to keep voting? Well they finally lost control. Hawley recently commented that the alliance of convenience was over and they were in control now The fiscal conservatives aren't morons, they know how extremely unpopular this is. They care about tax cuts and FYGM. Roe v Wade being overturned endangers that. They would have preferred to continue stringing them along for many more years, continuing to say "don't worry, aaaannny year now you'll finally get abortion banned, trust us!"
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Jul 2, 2022 01:05
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I love rules but I can’t help myself. Sorry everyone. 
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Jul 2, 2022 01:05
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Rigel posted:This is common knowledge. Are you not old enough to know that fiscal conservatives have been using christian extremists for decades, trying to throw them the bare minimum number of bones to keep voting? Well they finally lost control. Hawley recently commented that the alliance of convenience was over and they were in control now Fiscal conservatives sponsored and grew the seething hordes of fundies into the force that took over their party, they're totally morons.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:13
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Bel Shazar posted:Fiscal conservatives sponsored and grew the seething hordes of fundies into the force that took over their party, they're totally morons. Yeah, well they needed the votes. Without them, they don't win in the first place. The rode the tiger as long as they could.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:14
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Rigel posted:Yeah, well they needed the votes. Without them, they don't win in the first place. The rode the tiger as long as they could. I am corrected... EVIL morons
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Jul 2, 2022 01:18
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BiggerBoat posted:Biden is out dated and the wrong guy at the wrong time; fully unequipped to deal with the vast array of modern problems we face on basically any issue. Biden's already done good things for plenty of people, though. Sure, his legislative initiatives have largely stalled in Congress through no real fault of his own, but he and his administration have used executive power for some good things, including some things that covered for Congress' failings. He may not have done as much as many of us would like, but it's just plain wrong to say that he's done nothing.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:18
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Main Paineframe posted:Biden's already done good things for plenty of people, though. Sure, his legislative initiatives have largely stalled in Congress through no real fault of his own, but he and his administration have used executive power for some good things, including some things that covered for Congress' failings. It's more accurate to say what he has done is woefully insufficient
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Jul 2, 2022 01:26
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Jimmy Carter speed run? Really not getting the comparisons between Biden and Carter. Granted Carter was before my time, but from what I've read about the guy he seems like he was on the right side of history on most things and was sure as poo poo less evil than the guy who came after him (Ronald "let's ignore AIDS and destroy unions" Reagan). Pretty much yeah. There are differences between Biden and Carter (and I like Jimmy Carter a lot more than Biden) but I'm old enough to remember how things were under his term, even though I was a kid, and they're rather similar to how things are now. High gas prices, inflation, coming into office after a scandalous and corrupt administration/impeachment, an energy crisis and a whole lot of poo poo that Carter couldn't handle. At least he had a modicum of decency about him and I wish he'd had more time to implement some things he wanted to do (like weening us off foreign energy supplies and things like that) but he was a very unpopular president and ultimately begat Reagan and all the poo poo that went with that. There are a lot of similarities I think with Biden/Carter and I'll get into it if you want me to. Kanos posted:People compare Biden and Carter because both of them are milquetoast Democrats whose administrations were both besieged by runaway inflation and a host of crises that they completely failed to coordinate effective responses to. Something along these lines. Gas prices and fuel shortages got so bad in 1978/1979 or so that you could only fill your tank on odd/even dates depending on your license plate and the lines bled out into the street. Meaning if your license plate ended in 3 you were only get gas on odd numbered dates. I LIKE Jimmy Carter. I like him a lot but his years in office were really bad and he was about as ineffectual as Joe Biden but maybe for different reasons BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 01:30
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A big flaming stink posted:It's more accurate to say what he has done is woefully insufficient He was not the man for the moment.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:34
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A big flaming stink posted:Carter was a complete catastrophe in office, including feuding with democrat leaders in Congress to the point he threatened to veto a universal healthcare bill
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Jul 2, 2022 01:35
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Keyser_Soze posted:Pete is a centrist cyborg but is at least "electable" and could win against the fundy fascist chuds and can also discuss things without drooling all over himself or screaming and farting like Dumb Donnie.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:38
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Rigel posted:This is common knowledge. Are you not old enough to know that fiscal conservatives have been using christian extremists for decades, trying to throw them the bare minimum number of bones to keep voting? Well they finally lost control. Hawley recently commented that the alliance of convenience was over and they were in control now Except overturning Roe doesn't actually endanger that at all and you're once again just posting your feelings
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Jul 2, 2022 01:38
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Rigel posted:This is common knowledge. You realise saying this only means anything to people who already believe the same things you do? It's not actually an argument, it's just an assertion that since it feels correct to you, it must be. You didn't quote any of these fiscal conservatives, or show them throwing money and weight behind candidates who don't want Roe overturned, or really doing anything to show they think it's bad? The only statements we've heard saying RvW could hurt republicans FROM REPUBLICANS are from losing candidates and unemployed consultants. There's nothing to suggest that the people who gleefully embraced the fundies are disappointed to achieve something that will keep them energized and voting and out there putting in the work for the party? Why on earth would they think that's bad? They're securing a massive, reliable voting bloc who don't give a poo poo about their fiscal agenda, giving them free reign to do whatever warms their squalid little hearts.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:41
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah, I think a lot of people on the Left or Liberals sort of overplayed the idea of "Actually Carter was right" in the face of 2000s Reagan worship. Carter was right on a lot of stuff, did some good things during his administration, and Regan sucked. But you can't poo poo on Regan for dog-whistling about segregation and then champion Jimmy "I have nothing against a community that is trying to maintain the ethnic purity of their neighborhoods" Carter. I think Carter's post-presidency has significantly tinted people's views of him - he's much more popular as an ex-president than he was as a president. Even then, though, he's still got some noticeable bad views. For example, just a decade ago, he went on Laura Ingraham's radio show to talk about how he was calling for Dems to be less pro-abortion.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:00
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Rigel posted:This is common knowledge. Are you not old enough to know that fiscal conservatives have been using christian extremists for decades, trying to throw them the bare minimum number of bones to keep voting? Well they finally lost control. Hawley recently commented that the alliance of convenience was over and they were in control now There certainly is some tension between those two parts of the coalition. I find it easier to see with Catholics than fundamentalists, as the former, despite being culturally conservative on topics such as abortion, also has ethics of care for the poor, workers being able to make enough to support a family, and opposition to war (or really just in favor of Just War, but that is anti-war by American standards). However, whether the Dobbs v. Jackson decision will damage this alliance is not clear cut. As easily as the narrative you describe, one could also say that the Christians have more reason to stay with the neoliberals now that they've proven they can provide what's desired.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:03
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Uh, no, we're well past the point where it's plausible to say "Republican politicians don't really MEAN all those things they say". Literally the same day as a crazed mob of Republican voters bashed its way into the Capitol building, 138 sitting Republicans in the House, and 6 in the Senate, objected to certifying Biden's electoral votes. They have made affirming Trump's big lie as a requirement to remain a Republican in good standing. They are complicit. This is who they are, they have shown us. It's always been a bit of cope and these days most of the people who originally kicked off these movements are gone and the people they left behind are true believers. Maybe there was a time that the Republicans didn't really want to ban abortion but now the people at the top also believed those lies and really do want to ban abortion.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:28
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's always been a bit of cope and these days most of the people who originally kicked off these movements are gone and the people they left behind are true believers. Maybe there was a time that the Republicans didn't really want to ban abortion but now the people at the top also believed those lies and really do want to ban abortion. Additionally, regardless of what they believe in their hearts of hearts, a quick look across the aisle would show them that banning abortion is a win-win. They get to energize their base of hogs and psychos while nominally out of power, while it's a safe bet their opposition will immediately trip over themselves to alienate everyone who might be inspired to turn out against them.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:42
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some plague rats posted:Additionally, regardless of what they believe in their hearts of hearts, a quick look across the aisle would show them that banning abortion is a win-win. They get to energize their base of hogs and psychos while nominally out of power, while it's a safe bet their opposition will immediately trip over themselves to alienate everyone who might be inspired to turn out against them. I think it's easy for people on the left to forget how exciting it is to win. When your party is bringing in victory after victory, you feel good and want to support them more.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:47
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the democratic party is in full control of the lawmaking branches of government. This is a bullshit probe. "Stale argument" is a bad reason to probe someone who is correct. There's no fresh argument to make because the Dems haven't changed their operating procedures in the past decade. They've done this since my first votes in 2008, they're doing it now, and there's no reason to think they won't do it in the future.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:50
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some plague rats posted:You realise saying this only means anything to people who already believe the same things you do? It's not actually an argument, it's just an assertion that since it feels correct to you, it must be. Expanding on this very good post, we're talking about the motivations of rich donors. The only goal of the capitalist class is to maintain their power. There are capitalists who are gay, trans, female, etc., but those disadvantaged identities don't matter when you are very rich - when they do, their diminished privilege from such characteristics pales in comparison to the privilege of being a billionaire. Right now, as always, members of this class (as always) have the goal of maintaining or increasing their power, which is closely related to profit*. Historically, one of the best ways of doing this is to ally with cultural forces with different interests than the workers - the reactionaries. Reactionary cultural currents are anti-egalitarian and thus anti-worker. Sure, the Koch brothers would rather keep gay marriage, but its not a huge deal. Previously, more liberal electoralism was the best, particularly when the Soviet Union was still around - there was still a tendency to ally with reactionary elements to some extent, but you couldn't have too much worker discontent. Nowadays, the rate of profit* on capital is falling more and more, and it isn't doable to maintain the post-war liberal order, which has included some bones that were thrown to workers. The end of Bretton Woods and promotion of mass-asset holding in the form of home ownership gave a boost to the rate of profit that allowed first-world workers to maintain their privileges for a few decades, but that's tapped out as the current inflation shows. In this case, it makes sense to transition into more of an illiberal, Russian style system, to allow capitalists to better extract rent from ever-declining production on constant or decreasing capital. (*) The rate of profit has a tendency to fall. If you think of the productive capacity of the Earth, the growth over time is necessarily shaped like a logistic curve because there is necessarily some finite constraint. Previously, capitalism went after the low-hanging fruit like resource extration and heavy industry - now outsourced to less capitalistically developed countries, but still declining overall due to environmental destruction. That's why Ponzi schemes and rent-seeking have overtaken socially beneficial forms of production - they occupy the imperial core to the point that our capital (e.g. the Rust Belt) has withered, and we outsource it places like China, who are building modern productive capital to fill the gap left by our glory days of industry.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:51
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HonorableTB posted:This is a bullshit probe. "Stale argument" is a bad reason to probe someone who is correct. There's no fresh argument to make because the Dems haven't changed their operating procedures in the past decade. They've done this since my first votes in 2008, they're doing it now, and there's no reason to think they won't do it in the future. It doesn't matter whether they were correct or not. If you don't believe there are any points to be made about a certain subject that everyone reading hasn't heard before, then it would be better not to make any.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:59
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-Blackadder- posted:This is solid. Always forget how good a speaker he is. How'd that turn out?
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Jul 2, 2022 03:00
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Koos Group posted:It doesn't matter whether they were correct or not. If you don't believe there are any points to be made about a certain subject that everyone reading hasn't heard before, then it would be better not to make any. Surely claiming that the Democrats don't actually have control of the Senate because of Manchin and Sinema is equally stale.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:07
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Koos Group posted:It doesn't matter whether they were correct or not. If you don't believe there are any points to be made about a certain subject that everyone reading hasn't heard before, then it would be better not to make any.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:08
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Gripweed posted:Surely claiming that the Democrats don't actually have control of the Senate because of Manchin and Sinema is equally stale. Yes, I wouldn't like to see that either. cat botherer posted:So that rule must only apply to leftists then, because I see the same centrist arguments repeated here a lot, with no probes. Please report them if that is the case.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:15
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Koos Group posted:Please report them if that is the case.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:17
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cat botherer posted:No, it’s not as good of a forum when everyone is probed. Then please refrain from complaining that they are not probed.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:23
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Koos Group posted:It doesn't matter whether they were correct or not. If you don't believe there are any points to be made about a certain subject that everyone reading hasn't heard before, then it would be better not to make any. What is the proper behavior if someone makes an argument that would be normally refuted by making a stale point? Should we just let it stand uncontested or what
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Jul 2, 2022 03:37
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