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mdemone posted:Yeah the second one there is the only real sticking point. But they could certainly give it a try. I'm picturing an old Daily Show montage of everyone including Trump, the head of the organization, pushing the Big Lie... They won't try, though. Going through the motions is vital, but succeeding is apparently abhorrent.
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Jul 1, 2022 20:41
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Generally speaking even if you can think of a way to charge RICO, you don't do it unless it really is a situation where you have no other choice and there are no easier crimes to go with like with old fashioned organized crime. RICO is not easy to prove. In this case there is a gigantic number of easier crimes to go with, and trying to prove RICO might confuse the jury into throwing up their hands and not convicting. Or to quote popehat when someone asked him if we could go after Trump for RICO, "You don't plan a mixed-forces amphibious invasion to get the racoons out of the garbage."
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Jul 1, 2022 20:47
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https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1542949219941638146 its true apperently
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Jul 1, 2022 20:56
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quote:Former Federal Prosecutor Glenn Kirschner tells us the Jan 6 committee has enlisted Tim Heaphy from the DC US Attorney’s Office, a skilled prosecutor who specializes in RICO cases, to expose Trump's crimes.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:00
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1542949219941638146 Well of course it was. Never a doubt about that lil bitchboi throwing a tantrum.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:43
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1542949219941638146 You can always tell the true poo poo with Trump. He just has a way of being thats so alien it can be occasionally hard to predict because you can't get inside that mindset, but once you hear about it you recognise the precise idiosyncracy of his mutant mind. It's like the fact that he's a diddler, or that he had a pissparty on the Obama hotel mattress. Do I need a "verified" tape to have absolute confidence that poo poo happened? Hell no
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Jul 1, 2022 21:45
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1542949219941638146 it was never in doubt
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Jul 1, 2022 21:46
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:it was never in doubt i doubted the hands part but same about the rest. shits a loving black comedy.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:53
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i doubted the hands part but same about the rest. shits a loving black comedy. With everything else going on I don't think it's really sunk in yet how much the Trump administration has completely destroyed political satire.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:25
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-Blackadder- posted:With everything else going on I don't think it's really sunk in yet how much the Trump administration has completely destroyed political satire. yeah seriously. i never want to here people bitch about dumb character writing with villians now because holy poo poo lol.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:31
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Bel Shazar posted:See I think I I'm misunderstanding RICO. I thought the whole point was you didn't HAVE to draw a direct line all the way to the top. Everyone in the organization is guilty of all of its crimes. What do you imagine the prosecutor defining the "organization" as here? If you try to draw the line at the RNC or the white House administration, that looks like a political hit that's easy for Fox News to deflect. You can maybe get away with saying the Trump Reelection Campaign, but then certain key figures here don't seem to fit, like the Chief Of Staff. Calling any part of a sitting government a crime organization is going to be a hard sell compared to just addressing the people doing the crimes. Witness tampering isn't the end goal but the less it happens, the better.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:42
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Curious why you think the organization for a RICO investigation has to have some sort of formal recognized existence? Be some sort of legally recognized entity? The organization is the people who planned, participated and materially aided the conspiracy. Many of the planners and aiders will not have performed an explicit crime but they also knowingly participated in sedition.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:33
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah seriously. i never want to here people bitch about dumb character writing with villians now because holy poo poo lol. Trump is written more like an 80s cartoon villain. Plus the whole thing where 80s villains like Biff Tannen were actually written to be Trumpian. He's basically been a villainous archetype as long as I've been alive. There is no man closer to the Antichrist on this earth
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Jul 2, 2022 00:10
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Murgos posted:Curious why you think the organization for a RICO investigation has to have some sort of formal recognized existence? Be some sort of legally recognized entity? Yeah but as has been said, they don't need to use RICO. Just charge them all with seditious conspiracy, as will happen. Shitload of people are going to jail. Hell of a time.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:15
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Judge Schnoopy posted:What do you imagine the prosecutor defining the "organization" as here? The president's the leader of the party, right? And the Jan 6th hearings are going into gory detail about the corruption. Seems like the whole party qualifies. This, of course, is why I am not a lawyer or judge.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:21
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mdemone posted:Yeah but as has been said, they don't need to use RICO. Just charge them all with seditious conspiracy, as will happen. I think a lot of people will have committed some quite clear crime, I expect that there is a multiple of that though who it will be less clear unless you can show that they were taking the actions they took in furtherance of the organizations goals. Showing intent is an important part of these sophisticated crimes and that may be hard where people appear to be acting within the law but their actions benefit the conspiracy. Edit: for example a state legislator who maybe didn’t sign a fraudulent elector ballot but who did hold hearings on false claims of election fraud to set the stage for the false electors with the finding of their hearing and who would other wise be immune due to a speech and debate clause except for a corrupt intent. This is a hypothetical, I don’t know if such a thing happened. Another example could be a lawyer who petitioned the governor to decertify an election based on false claims. If you can show they were acting for the racket then that goes from a minor infraction if anything to sedition. Murgos fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 00:31
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Bel Shazar posted:The president's the leader of the party, right? And the Jan 6th hearings are going into gory detail about the corruption. Seems like the whole party qualifies. It would be completely "unamerican" to target a non-Marxist political party like that.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:34
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Bel Shazar posted:The president's the leader of the party, right? And the Jan 6th hearings are going into gory detail about the corruption. Seems like the whole party qualifies. Trump is not the head of the RNC, no.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:34
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Xiahou Dun posted:Trump is not the head of the RNC, no. Seems the Chair of the Republican National Committee is also part of the conspiracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronna_McDaniel "After Joe Biden won the 2020 election and Trump refused to concede, McDaniel and the RNC made disproven claims of voter fraud,[3] and attempted to overturn Biden's victory."
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Jul 2, 2022 01:07
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Murgos posted:Curious why you think the organization for a RICO investigation has to have some sort of formal recognized existence? Be some sort of legally recognized entity? It's the O part of RICO. While it doeant have to be some licensed entity, a bunch of people getting together to plan and commit crimes isn't RICO. It's just conspiracy. So if they can charge people with that, it's both simpler and easier to prove than RICO.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:31
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Epicurius posted:It's the O part of RICO. While it doeant have to be some licensed entity, a bunch of people getting together to plan and commit crimes isn't RICO. It's just conspiracy. So if they can charge people with that, it's both simpler and easier to prove than RICO. Organization is doing a lot of work that doesn’t seem supported here. The whole point of RICO is that you can argue patterns of behavior rather than specific acts. And racket for this purpose includes bribery, fraud, obstruction of Justice and terrorism. All of which apply broadly to the insurrection. Edit: per Wikipedia “ one of the most successful applications of the RICO laws has been the ability to indict and or sanction individuals for their behavior and actions committed against witnesses and victims in alleged retaliation or retribution for cooperating with federal law enforcement or intelligence agencies.” Surely, you can see the merit of using RICO here in light of the last few days discussion about witness tampering? Murgos fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 01:47
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Murgos posted:Surely, you can see the merit of using RICO here in light of the last few days discussion about witness tampering? Sure, but if you can find the person who sent the emails and find out he got orders from Meadows, you don't need RICO. Prosecutors don't like charging RICO. They take a long time to try, they're complicated, they're hard to prove and juries generally don't like them. I'm not saying they won't charge RICO here. They might. But if they can make a conspiracy case, it's a lot easier to get people convicted.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:28
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i doubted the hands part but same about the rest. shits a loving black comedy. Yeah, I was a bit suspicious at the notion of that Augustus Gloop cosplayer actually physically assaulting someone, guess it goes to show that everyone has their breaking point.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:32
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Bel Shazar posted:Seems the Chair of the Republican National Committee is also part of the conspiracy. O…kay? You don’t have to prove to me the head of the RNC is a douchebag. I know that because he’s the head of the RNC. But you’re saying that “Bam! It’s RICO, easy peasy, gosh why are all the lawyers saying it’s so hard,” while also not understanding that Trump and the head of the RNC are distinct people. I’m not a lawyer, but I like learning about the law and a thing I’ve picked up is that it’s a complicated thing and there’s a reason why it requires a bunch of specialized education. So when all the lawyers say something I try to learn why they’re saying that instead of assuming they just don’t have moxie like me and if they’ll take my advice we can get this all settled in an afternoon. It’s got big Engineer Assuming Other Fields Are Trivial energy.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:12
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rico would be dumb to pursue because rico is almost definitely getting overturned the first time it's used in a politically controversial context because it's pretty plainly unconstitutional
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Jul 2, 2022 03:15
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Xiahou Dun posted:O…kay? I am a lawyer, but not a rico lawyer. I personally would listen to a rico lawyer like popehat who characterized using rico in this instance as mounting a combined arms sea- land offensive to get raccoons out of your garbage
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Jul 2, 2022 03:21
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Xiahou Dun posted:O…kay? No totally, like I said earlier, I am sure I'm wrong. I just can't figure out how I'm wrong because I hear what all you're saying, but it sure looks like they were all working together out in the open on the same corrupt endeavor to commit seditious treason, and given that they represent most sections of the party leadership, including the chair of the RNC and the party leader, it's not outside of the intent of RICO laws to call that a corrupt organization and prosecute the entire party, letting prosecutorial discretion filter out the offenders from the useful idiots. sebmojo posted:I am a lawyer, but not a rico lawyer. I personally would listen to a rico lawyer like popehat who characterized using rico in this instance as mounting a combined arms sea- land offensive to get raccoons out of your garbage So... doable, just unnecessary
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Jul 2, 2022 04:19
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I'm telling stories outside of school so take it with a pinch of salt, but my understanding is that the whole point of RICO is that it's a giant big thing designed to catch things that are definitely criminal but hard to prove as a crime, specifically aimed at things like the mob. But because it's designed to be the "can't catch them for other stuff" rule, it's got an incredibly high bar so we don't become a totalitarian hellstate (more quickly) by just making it so it's easier to charge someone with RICO poo poo. Therefore, if you can hit them with any other crime, any other crime, you want to hit them with that. And, you know, they did some conspiring to do a sedition and that's better in every way so why not do that instead.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:26
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Bel Shazar posted:No totally, like I said earlier, I am sure I'm wrong. I just can't figure out how I'm wrong because I hear what all you're saying, but it sure looks like they were all working together out in the open on the same corrupt endeavor to commit seditious treason, and given that they represent most sections of the party leadership, including the chair of the RNC and the party leader, it's not outside of the intent of RICO laws to call that a corrupt organization and prosecute the entire party, letting prosecutorial discretion filter out the offenders from the useful idiots. Even if you do manage to declare a political party illegal, why on earth would you not expect the republicans to do the same to the democrats first chance they get
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Jul 2, 2022 04:30
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sebmojo posted:Even if you do manage to declare a political party illegal, why on earth would you not expect the republicans to do the same to the democrats first chance they get Now that you mention it, I like this idea even more... So, it's because they're too big to fail.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:33
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Don't go down the road of banning political parties. It doesn't end well. It's very bad company.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:42
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Xiahou Dun posted:Don't go down the road of banning political parties. It doesn't end well. It's very bad company. Post and username combo 
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Jul 2, 2022 05:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:Don't go down the road of banning political parties. It doesn't end well. It's very bad company. No gods no parties. 
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Jul 3, 2022 02:02
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah seriously. i never want to here people bitch about dumb character writing with villians now because holy poo poo lol. If anything, fiction has made them entirely too competent. Also all those zombie books we used to make fun of for people being so batshit insane and stupid to get bitten. If anything they weren't batshit insane and stupid enough. Oracle fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 05:20
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-Blackadder- posted:With everything else going on I don't think it's really sunk in yet how much the Trump administration has completely destroyed political satire.
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Jul 3, 2022 05:28
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 https://www.businessinsider.com/ginni-thomas-lawyer-push-back-j6-testimony-particularly-stressful-time-2022-6?r=US&IR=T "Mark Paoletta added in his (8 page) letter: "I would also note that this has been a particularly stressful time as the Thomases have been subjected to an avalanche of death threats and other abuse by the unprecedented assault on the conservative Supreme Court Justices and their families." He does not specify what recent Supreme Court rulings prompted the threats."
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Jul 3, 2022 10:49
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Murgos posted:I think a lot of people will have committed some quite clear crime, I expect that there is a multiple of that though who it will be less clear unless you can show that they were taking the actions they took in furtherance of the organizations goals. I think the best case scenario for any prosecutions occurring here is what happened with the Michigan Governor kidnap case
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Jul 3, 2022 10:58
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah seriously. i never want to here people bitch about dumb character writing with villians now because holy poo poo lol. Hell I’ve said repeatedly over the course of the last six years that if you tried to put any of this in a book with a straight face, you’d be laughed out of the room for being too over the top and ridiculous. For example, I’m replaying Final Fantasy VII Remake because it’s out on PC right now, and the wacky bugfuck stupid and over the top antics of Shinra Inc. are tame and milquetoast compared to the actual crap that Donald Trump, his family, and his subordinates got up to in real life. And I swear they even had to rewrite parts of the game to try and make them all more Trumpy just to keep up with the times. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 14:52
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the difference between shinra and trump is that shinra doesnt have two incredibly stupid failsons
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Jul 3, 2022 15:58
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OgNar posted:
So they were both in on it thanks. Like, of course the guy trying to block evidence of his wife's plot was in on it. Even her lawyers are afraid of how batshit nuts and "honest" she will go.
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Jul 3, 2022 16:52
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