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I just got to building a little Trelasarra, Moon Dancer deck and I'm curious about a timing question, Say she's in play and I have a Priest of Ancient Lore hit the table, it reads to me that I have to resolve everything he does first THEN I can start using Trelasarra's ability. Or am I off on that and I can trigger her ability off the life gain to Scry before drawing the card?
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Jul 1, 2022 09:27
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Yes, you have to resolve all of Priest's ability before doing anything with Trelasarra's trigger.
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Jul 1, 2022 09:58
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DontMockMySmock posted:So she's either being an idiot for not understanding that stax is a strategy that exists, an idiot for not understanding the value of her own deck's cards, or just being an rear end in a top hat going "nyah nyah i won, you suck". I cannot think of an interpretation of her words that is more charitable than that. I am reminded for some reason of a guy at my old shop who built a Zur voltron deck. He'd quickly load him up with defensive enchantments and buffs to swing for commander damage. Not the most brutal strategy possible, but for a low-mid power game, one that would certainly work. In this pod, I'm on Shattergang Brothers no one gets permanents, another guy is playing Stonebrow trample-tribal, and the fourth is on Surrak Dragonclaw Temur goodstuff. It's a slower, blow stuff up, die via combat damage type game. After a single game ending rather quick from Commander damage, everyone else in the pod understood that Zur needed to die the turn he hit the board, before he tutors up Vanishing or Curator's Ward to dodge removal. It's same way that commanders like Krenko or Winota cannot be allowed to hang around and snowball. And so next game, Zur got killed each time he was played, and quickly because un-castable due to commander tax. Subsequent games went the same way. At that level of play, with no one threatening a Thoracle win or the like, threat assessment decisions are pretty easy, and playing mind games of "If I hold back interaction, I can force my opponents to waste their interaction, leaving me with my interaction for later" just isn't worth the mental energy. Guy playing him did the thing he often did where he'd pitch a small tantrum, ask plaintively "Why are you always ganging up on me?" and then whine some more when I'd explain "Because if Zur sticks around, you win. I can't win if you're winning." Like, the guy was a good player, but didn't seem to understand or didn't want to understand, that quick aggro strategies can be countered and/or neutered and if you don't build in a back up plan, you will end up being unable to affect the game much. He seemed to imply without saying outright during his whining that Zur was a good commander, and there shouldn't be losing to bad commanders, which really just misunderstands the nature of multiplayer games like commander.
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Jul 1, 2022 20:15
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I moved away from decks that require my commander to function for that reason, and now gravitate towards decks where the commander is more or less the last spell you intend to cast to close the game out. One of my best buddies basically quit commander over this, he was a hugely invested player but only ever built stuff like Selvala, Winota, Orvar. His decks were exactly like what Toph described, if we literally let you have your commander, you’ll win. We HAVE to kill them on site, or else you are going to win. It’s a very binary decision that you’re forcing all of us into and it’s not really fair to act like we’re being lovely for wanting to play the game. Decks where my Commander is the finisher: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer Edgar Markov Extus, Oriq Overlord Ezuri, Renegade Leader Heliod, Sun-Crowned Decks that revolve around my Commander: Osgir, the Reconstructor K’rrik, Son of Yawgmoth Decks that don’t even use my commander half the time: Anowon, the Ruin Sage Strefan, Maurer Progenitor RazzaKatz I feel like I should point out that of all these decks, Osgir & K’rrik are both extremely powerful and also far & away the decks I have the most fun playing, but they’re literally so powerful that I both understand & respect you for killing them, because if you don’t I am FOR SURE going to win. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 20:30
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Toph Bei Fong posted:I am reminded for some reason of a guy at my old shop who built a Zur voltron deck. He'd quickly load him up with defensive enchantments and buffs to swing for commander damage. Not the most brutal strategy possible, but for a low-mid power game, one that would certainly work. In this pod, I'm on Shattergang Brothers no one gets permanents, another guy is playing Stonebrow trample-tribal, and the fourth is on Surrak Dragonclaw Temur goodstuff. It's a slower, blow stuff up, die via combat damage type game. Whining is often a successful strategy in multiplayer games, and many players who are not bad players basically engage in a meta-strategy of playing these sort of decks and then crying about it if you do the logical thing. I played with a V:tES playgroup for a while that was almost totally toxic because if you didn't let Stu do his thing, he'd just cry and whine and complain and take forever on his turn so it was unfun and miserable, but if you did let him do this thing he'd win, and whatever his thing was it was typically fairly easy to stop, and very binary.
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Jul 1, 2022 20:34
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pseudanonymous posted:Whining is often a successful strategy in multiplayer games, and many players who are not bad players basically engage in a meta-strategy of playing these sort of decks and then crying about it if you do the logical thing. I played with a V:tES playgroup for a while that was almost totally toxic because if you didn't let Stu do his thing, he'd just cry and whine and complain and take forever on his turn so it was unfun and miserable, but if you did let him do this thing he'd win, and whatever his thing was it was typically fairly easy to stop, and very binary. I will never stop being astonished over how many grown rear end adults are really, really sore losers. Like I get it, when I started I would sometimes complain that something was bullshit or unfair too, but you should quickly learn what you are in control of (your decisions and mistakes, and how you adapt to strategies and learn from them) and what you're not in control of (opponent decisions and the overall concept of variance and luck). But the whining, the vendettas, the grudges that carry over into the next week's FNM/commander pods... I just don't wanna deal with it.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:31
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pseudanonymous posted:. I played with a V:tES playgroup for a while that was almost totally toxic because if you didn't let Stu do his thing, he'd just cry and whine and complain Lemme guess, a political deck but he burst into tears whenever a guy calling a vote got intercepted?
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Jul 2, 2022 00:42
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Jyhad could never be good because of the inherent inequality and kingmaking of the format. It could be "fun" at times, but never good. A real shame to see other games chase that dragon and also come to the same conclusion.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:52
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Gynovore posted:Lemme guess, a political deck but he burst into tears whenever a guy calling a vote got intercepted? That's why you need Forgotten Labyrinth.  Gilbert Duane and his squirt gun say this vote is going to happen.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:53
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Gynovore posted:Lemme guess, a political deck but he burst into tears whenever a guy calling a vote got intercepted? There was a guy in our local group that I would do this to constantly. One of my small pleasures.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:30
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Gynovore posted:Lemme guess, a political deck but he burst into tears whenever a guy calling a vote got intercepted? It was like everything, a perfect example was him turboing out an inner circle member when he was being bled by stealth bleed and then he played one of those votes that changed the table order and people voted for it because he was going to be ousted if it didn't pass, they did, so of course, he ultimately won the game. That was just one example though. Like he'd play a location you could steal with a d action and if people actually stole it he'd cry because his deck wouldn't work. A couple of people in the group really didn't care about winning, V:tES was just a way to hang out and joke around, so to keep the peace they'd just sort of let him do what he wanted.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:12
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Toshimo posted:Jyhad could never be good because of the inherent inequality and kingmaking of the format. It could be "fun" at times, but never good. A real shame to see other games chase that dragon and also come to the same conclusion. Wow, you're ioncredibly wrong on all levels.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:17
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pseudanonymous posted:It was like everything, a perfect example was him turboing out an inner circle member when he was being bled by stealth bleed and then he played one of those votes that changed the table order and people voted for it because he was going to be ousted if it didn't pass, they did, so of course, he ultimately won the game. Wow, I remember when Dramatic Upheaval and those cards got banned; my play group wasn't playing it (except maybe one copy in one deck) and we were stunned. We figured it was Europeans or something. This thread is now a V:TES thread. After all, V:TES and EDH are really the same. There's a heavy social pressure to play slightly underpowered decks most of the time, they're both multiplayer Deckmaster games, they often rely on politicking, and both games are loving dead now.
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Jul 2, 2022 10:25
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Someone at my local group has a Nekusar deck, and it just ends up getting ruthlessly targeted. Most of the bad things the deck does require Nekusar to be out to be meaningful (like wheeling people), and by its nature the deck gives you way more opportunity to find removal for it. Naturally he feels hurt and ganged up on, but doesn't seem to be able to internalise that this is just the natural reaction to a deck that reminds you of its cruelty every single turn, or that when it is doing it's thing it's helping you deal with it.
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Jul 2, 2022 11:10
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Grixis is the most butthurt shard for sure, all the actually playable commanders are kill on sight.
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Jul 2, 2022 12:03
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Toshimo posted:Jyhad could never be good because of the inherent inequality and kingmaking of the format. It could be "fun" at times, but never good. A real shame to see other games chase that dragon and also come to the same conclusion. MonsieurChoc posted:Wow, you're ioncredibly wrong on all levels. Yeah. I've come around on most of what Toshimo says about EDH, but this take just shows how much he doesn't know about VTES. If anything, that game has less of a kingmaking problem than EDH. Any multiplayer game is going to run into that from time to time, but VTES has so many more tools players can use to balance the table while working toward one's own VPs/wins. Interaction is the most basic way to influence/derail runaway players in EDH, and VTES has so much more of that by the nature of its rules, to say nothing of the built-in opportunity interaction/removal of many of the game's most powerful cards. The predator/prey dynamic, working toward Victory Points, and the game's time limit all disincentivize kingmaking. That doesn't mean it never happens, but it happens way less often than it does in EDH (unless you're playing with suckers, I guess). Toshimo is a good poster and most of the folks ITT can learn from his good, if blunt, takes on EDH deckbuilding. But... just stick to EDH, my dude.
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Jul 2, 2022 13:17
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Framboise posted:I will never stop being astonished over how many grown rear end adults are really, really sore losers. This is really the core of the problem. If you build a commander deck where your commander needs to be dealt with on sight, the next logical step shouldn't be a tantrum. It should be "how do I make sure it's able to stick." Either figure out how to make sure your commander can get a swing in or stop playing remove on sight commanders. Simple as that. I love playing my Niv-Mizzet draw-go deck but I expect him to get hosed 2-4 times per game because loving lol if my group is gonna let me get card draw and ping damage and/or give me the chance to drop an Ophidian Eye/Curiosity/Charisma on him.
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Jul 2, 2022 14:03
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Bust Rodd posted:Grixis is the most butthurt shard for sure, all the actually playable commanders are kill on sight.
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Jul 2, 2022 15:07
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Robviously posted:This is really the core of the problem. If you build a commander deck where your commander needs to be dealt with on sight, the next logical step shouldn't be a tantrum. It should be "how do I make sure it's able to stick." Either figure out how to make sure your commander can get a swing in or stop playing remove on sight commanders. Simple as that. I love playing my Niv-Mizzet draw-go deck but I expect him to get hosed 2-4 times per game because loving lol if my group is gonna let me get card draw and ping damage and/or give me the chance to drop an Ophidian Eye/Curiosity/Charisma on him. 100% this. Sometimes tight-knit groups get this bugaboo about a particular commander and will roll out to punish that commander even if the player changes their strategy to be less obviously threatening at the jump (or even if that commander isn't as big a threat as others at the table in the first place). It's based on past experience, and as several people have said recently, people are bad at threat assessment. That past experience warps their threat assessment. But working against that isn't on the group; it's on the individual player to elevate their game above the targeting, not to expect the group to lower their game out of some vague sense of accommodating the butthurt. The last option is to abandon that creature as a commander, or even the deck altogether, if it can't be elevated to defend itself from concerted attack. I also had a Niv-Mizzet deck for a bit and it combos off so easily with Curiosity, etc. that it just got annoying to deal with the (justifiable) hate he got whenever he hit the table. I eventually decided to go in another direction with my Izzet deck rather than keep loving around with that.  Using proxies or building on a modest budget makes it super easy to not be overinvested in a deck enough that you feel like you can't take it apart.
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Jul 2, 2022 15:17
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If your threat assessment is “hey we must kill that commander on sight because if we don’t they will win” that is not bad threat assessment.
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Jul 2, 2022 15:21
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My least favourite threat assessment is "your board has some confusing text that doesn't seem to do anything, so I'm way more worried about it then this other obviously actually strong boardstate" I mean they are right, and if they hadn't dealt with it they would've found out how that is a combo piece but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
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Jul 2, 2022 16:29
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Railing Kill posted:Yeah. I've come around on most of what Toshimo says about EDH, but this take just shows how much he doesn't know about VTES. If anything, that game has less of a kingmaking problem than EDH. Any multiplayer game is going to run into that from time to time, but VTES has so many more tools players can use to balance the table while working toward one's own VPs/wins. Interaction is the most basic way to influence/derail runaway players in EDH, and VTES has so much more of that by the nature of its rules, to say nothing of the built-in opportunity interaction/removal of many of the game's most powerful cards. The predator/prey dynamic, working toward Victory Points, and the game's time limit all disincentivize kingmaking. That doesn't mean it never happens, but it happens way less often than it does in EDH (unless you're playing with suckers, I guess). Yeah, this 100%.
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Jul 2, 2022 16:30
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Magnetic North posted:That's why you need Forgotten Labyrinth. I used Form of Mist superior. 
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Jul 2, 2022 16:38
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Magnetic North posted:That's why you need Forgotten Labyrinth. Hell yes  Now we post all the best/worst V:TES art out there    Railing Kill posted:VTES I totally blanked on doing this the last time VTES came up, but I would absolutely love to play online if we can figure out a way to arrange it. Granted, this would mean finding which box, exactly, my cards ended up in after the last 5 moves... 
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Jul 2, 2022 18:43
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I know there's a discord group still playing I joined and then I never played. I'd be willing to give it another shot. Still got my Casino Reeds/Cock Robin deck.pseudanonymous posted:It was like everything, a perfect example was him turboing out an inner circle member when he was being bled by stealth bleed and then he played one of those votes that changed the table order and people voted for it because he was going to be ousted if it didn't pass, they did, so of course, he ultimately won the game. Man, if you play Powerbase Montreal and need it for your deck to function, put some blockers in your deck.
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Jul 2, 2022 19:06
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MissMarple posted:I'll have you know my Obeka deck is completely fine and not a problem oh wait you said actually playable. Funny enough I love Obeka and I'm most games I reach for her because so many of the cards are super fun in 4 player pods. It's not super crazy or powerful but as casual goes the deck is alot of fun and I enjoy playing it.
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Jul 2, 2022 19:39
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Hell yes Gilbert Duane owns bones because the longer you look at the art, the funnier it gets. Squirt gun? Yes. Out there wearing boxers? Yup. Beavis and Butthead shirt? Hell yeah. The old art is so cringey but every once in a while you get a Gilbert Duane that makes it all worth it. I would be up for figuring out a way to play VTES online with goons. Me and a few buddies still play from time to time (although not in the last couple months because of some COVID cases and scheduling issues). We're going to play in a couple weeks, actually. I sold off most of my collection seven years ago, but I kept eight pretty high-end tournament decks plus I built a "VTES cube" that I haven't tried yet. The cube could work for folks who can't find their cards or don't have any. I just need to find a way to port them into a program like Cockatrice that supports drafting. I can write up a thread for VTES if there's enough interest. That might be a better place to organize online play than hijacking the EDH thread. In the meantime, anyone out there can feel free to PM me about any VTES stuff, whether you have questions or your have suggestions for supporting online play.
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Jul 2, 2022 21:29
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Railing Kill posted:I can write up a thread for VTES if there's enough interest. That might be a better place to organize online play than hijacking the EDH thread. Naah, let's just keep derailing here.
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Jul 2, 2022 21:37
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Magnetic North posted:Naah, let's just keep derailing here. Get this. You ready? The format you're thinking of is called Canadian VTES.
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Jul 2, 2022 21:39
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Feel free to post about it in the Dead CCGs Thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3447461
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Jul 2, 2022 21:45
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Batterypowered7 posted:Get this. You ready? The format you're thinking of is called Canadian VTES.  thank you for your wisdomToshimo posted:Feel free to post about it in the Dead CCGs Thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3447461 That thread appears to be archived.
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Jul 2, 2022 22:01
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The last time I played commander with random people, I played my Torens Fist of the Angels deck that I brewed. I wasn't sure how well it would play but I wanted to try, and on our second game I was treated as the massive threat at the table since I dominated the first game. It actually was my first experience being considered the main threat, and I oddly enjoyed it because it validated my build. It was also a different strategy trying to play around being targeted, so it made for a fun evening (even though I got destroyed). Maybe it gets old if it happens all the time but being treated as the threat was kinda fun for me. It helped that everyone was having a good time and I still got to get some combos in place before they got wrecked.
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Jul 2, 2022 22:02
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Magnetic North posted:That thread appears to be archived. Just like the game, heyoo!
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Jul 2, 2022 22:17
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Actually it just got revived. Again. https://www.blackchantry.com/products/legacy/vampire-the-eternal-struggle-fifth-edition/
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Jul 2, 2022 22:56
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Magnetic North posted:Naah, let's just keep derailing here. Magnetic North posted:I can't believe I was playing wrong all those years Joking aside, I think I'll start working on a new thread then. Maybe a VTES specific one, or maybe a wider scope like the old one.
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Jul 2, 2022 23:22
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I would for sure be down for a VTES thread. If a decent way to play online came up I still have all my old cards hanging around. I'm struggling to remember what my favorite deck was towards the end... think it might have been Assamites/Banu Haqim
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Jul 3, 2022 01:04
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I would love a revival of the dead card games thread so I can talk about .hack//ENEMY
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Jul 3, 2022 04:07
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The Shortest Path posted:I would love a revival of the dead card games thread so I can talk about .hack//ENEMY Yeah I'd be game for a broader thread about old CCGs/TCGs/ETCs to hear more stuff and give the thread more opportunities to have content. That thread's last post was in late 2017, so that means its archival probably just so happens to coincide with M:tG's peak before the fall into becoming two scoops of brand management. That has likely raised the appetite for people to talk about the good old days of the 'normal' predatory world of randomized booster content.
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Jul 3, 2022 07:29
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The Shortest Path posted:I would love a revival of the dead card games thread so I can talk about .hack//ENEMY For me, it's VS System.
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Jul 3, 2022 07:30
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AlternateNu posted:For me, it's VS System. I assume you mean the original since the relaunch of the game is still getting new content?
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Jul 3, 2022 07:36
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