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Crain posted:How much effort do you think I should put into the side of the family who backed my uncle when he pulled a gun on my brothers and I when he caught an inkling one of my brothers might be gay? You are going to have to expend effort when you work for someone who is murderous and violent, work with someone who is murderous and violent, and do commerce with the murderous and violent. That you have a murderous and violent uncle is not particularly interesting, other than that you know more particularly about the broken and barbaric community that has led that man to be murderous and violent.
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Jul 3, 2022 00:13
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Rigel posted:I think it might have had an impact if we never had the public 1/6 hearings, but I do not think it will have any impact whatsoever now. If the DOJ doesn't indict, it won't be because they were thinking about it but then got scared of people accusing them of protecting Biden from a declared candidate, it would mean that Garland never had any intention of doing it no matter what happened.
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Jul 3, 2022 00:21
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Gerund posted:You are going to have to expend effort when you work for someone who is murderous and violent, work with someone who is murderous and violent, and do commerce with the murderous and violent. That you have a murderous and violent uncle is not particularly interesting, other than that you know more particularly about the broken and barbaric community that has led that man to be murderous and violent. Ok, explain what you mean by "effort". I'm taking this conversation about about "sever and exclude" from personal point of view because, again "no poo poo", people are limited in their options in engaging with greater society and it's mechanisms of commerce and governance. To me this topic is simply centered around personal relations. In my mind, the "effort" would be: Remove them from society or render them into an otherwise impotent position to protect the vulnerable. If that's not an option, then at least get safe.
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Jul 3, 2022 00:25
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Crain posted:In my mind, the "effort" would be: Remove them from society or render them into an otherwise impotent position to protect the vulnerable. How do you suggest we do this?
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Jul 3, 2022 00:26
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some plague rats posted:How do you suggest we do this? But since we didn't do that, and instead fostered it and let it fester and then spent decades compromising their ideology into power I suggest: [Redacted]
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Jul 3, 2022 00:30
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Crain posted:Ideally, after the civil war we would have burned and executed every confederate peoson of power and alligence and never allowed any sense of their ideology to remain anywhere beyond an epithet on a mass grave. We could vote in more Democrats and push them to take measures that will properly outlaw fascist political parties like other countries have done.
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Jul 3, 2022 00:52
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Gumball Gumption posted:We could vote in more Democrats and push them to take measures that will properly outlaw fascist political parties like other countries have done. Lmao. Like we've done for the last 70+ years, only for said Dems to compromise said fascists into power? Nah, considering that the GOP openly wants to kill me and mine, I'm shifting 100% into preparing to either flee or fortify. The Dems had their chance(s) and failed to rise to the challenge. You can try to say "oh we never actually could have blah blah didn't have enough blah blah" but that's not a defense. That's just admission that they were either fully out played at best or complicit at worst.
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Jul 3, 2022 01:04
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Crain posted:Lmao. You should try to find solidarity with the others they want to kill and fight back. This is just right wing individualism otherwise. Elect those people.
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Jul 3, 2022 01:07
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Literally posting "VOTE!" while the country is dismantled by the minority party under a government fully controlled by their opposition. We've tried that kid. It has not worked. It was rigged to not work before and it has gotten and is getting more and more rigged by the day. Should we make a tertiary party to challenge the neo-lib lockdown of the Dems? How has that worked out for the potpourri pot of other challenger parties we have? The very few actual challenger Dems that have been tacitly allowed in, and the extent the Dems have already gone to in order to kill any actual progressive challenges should be proof enough to show you how loving useless "VOTE!" is as a suggestion.
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Jul 3, 2022 01:26
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Crain posted:Literally posting "VOTE!" while the country is dismantled by the minority party under a government fully controlled by their opposition. I mean I'm not a huge fan of that plan either but at least he's managed to articulate something other than dumbassed internet tough guy posturing? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 3, 2022 02:13
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Gumball Gumption posted:We could vote in more Democrats and push them to take measures that will properly outlaw fascist political parties like other countries have done. The Democrats don't want to do this, won't do it, and are open about this If such a party existed you should vote for it, but then you're going to be screamed at for spoiling things for the Democrats (who, again, do not want to and will not do anything about the far right) If Trump is indicted I will accept I am wrong on this, but until such time, lol
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Jul 3, 2022 02:17
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some plague rats posted:I mean I'm not a huge fan of that plan either but at least he's managed to articulate something other than dumbassed internet tough guy posturing? No he's not. It's the same useless, decorum poisoned, neo-lib bullshit that got us into this mess. And I'm not "tough guy posturing". This is resignment to a reality where there is currently no good National level plan of action. Mutual local aide and preparing to resort to extra-governmwntal strategies for protecting our own is what's on the table. If we're lucky we're just heading towards some version of balkanization, if not we're in for some combo of Years of Lead and The Troubles.
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Jul 3, 2022 02:29
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Crain posted:No he's not. It's the same useless, decorum poisoned, neo-lib bullshit that got us into this mess. Right, but you can't articulate even a basic overview of what this might involve, in case you get in trouble on an internet forum. Not looking for names and addresses, dude. Just like an overview of how you think things will go. What do you think people should be doing? Protesting? Devoting time to grassroots orgs? Moving to their cities? Stockpiling guns and retreating into armed enclaves? Just anything other than vague, aggressive doomsaying please some plague rats fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 02:38
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With all due respect, it is better for all concerned parties to not openly discuss that in detail on the forum, for reasons of opsec and legal exposure.
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Jul 3, 2022 02:41
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StratGoatCom posted:With all due respect, it is better for all concerned parties to not openly discuss that in detail on the forum, for reasons of opsec and legal exposure. I'm not asking for a twelve step plan to kill the president, for fucks sake. Just some idea of what this guy thinks is coming and what the solutions should be, in general. Something other than just "You're all wrong, your plan is doomed to failure, you stupid children, what we should be doing that will work is whoops opsec can't tell you!!" If your plan is so radical and out there that posting about it will get the secret service at your door maybe just shut up completely?
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Jul 3, 2022 02:44
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some plague rats posted:Right, but you can't articulate even a basic overview of what this might involve, in case you get in trouble on an internet forum. Not looking for names and addresses, dude. Just like an overview of how you think things will go. It's in the part you cut off: Balkanization at best, Years of Lead and The Troubles at worst. Local mutual aide societies are going to be the standard of support as the police either stop pretending to not be fully on the side of fascists or just fully dissolve. Think the OG Black Panthers. Not just posting up with guns around town, but providing local food aide, trying to maintain services and running supplies. That's what I mean by "extra-governmental". The most dangerous thing the Black Panthers did in the eyes of the FBI was a free breakfast program. In states that are purple it will be just like the troubles unless the state/ local government is willing to lock down dissent one way or another. In those areas one last vote for an actual leftist willing to actually fight (and not in a rhetorical way) will be vital. Otherwise it's going to be targeted with terrorism. Hands down. Nationally I don't see anything improving. Any state that doesn't vote as wanted will be invalidated, and there will be a split between state level parties and national level Dems. There's going to be a lot of quislings. What you can do is start making a network of people with diverse skills you can rely on. Not to try and "vote them in" but to start forming a local core of support. What's your idea dipshit? Or do you just want to scream into the void at people who aren't sticking to the high school tier decorum club's standard script? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Crain fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 02:50
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Crain posted:It's in the part you cut off: Balkanization at best, Years of Lead and The Troubles at worst. The Troubles was an insurgent struggle against an occupying foreign power and their local auxiliaries though, backed by foreign money and weapons in huge amounts. Who do you see filling the British role in the troubles? The US government? and conversely who will fill the American one? Do you think Canada or Mexico will be funneling money and guns to the American Lib Resistance? Just trying to puzzle out your vision of the future, honestly. When you "balkanization" do you see the states breaking apart and forming new, independent countries? Crain posted:What's your idea dipshit? Or do you just want to scream into the void at people who aren't sticking to the high school tier decorum club's standard script? I'm not the one bursting in here screaming at people that they're stupid and I'm the one with all the answers, am I. e: oh he got probed. nvm some plague rats fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 03:03
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Crain posted:No he's not. It's the same useless, decorum poisoned, neo-lib bullshit that got us into this mess. Then find solidarity with the people they also want to kill and start fighting back. Voting is one of many many ways of fighting back and I went to it first because well, it's D&D and when in Rome post like the Romans do. Don't think of it as voting, think of it as one of our possible solutions is getting people who are actually ruthless about using power for the left and to protect the left into positions of power. You've also posted some really good ones and those are positions of power you can take without being voted in. Your original post was about fleeing which is just gently caress you got mine but instead of saying got mine you go "oh I'm so sorry you're stuck there. That's so sad. Camps you say? Oh just terrible" and that helps no one but yourself and that sense of American individualism is how we've gotten into this mess. Just leave is exactly what the fascists want you to do too and if it's all you've got you're just giving them what they want and that won't stop them. Edit: In short, fight back. If you need to leave to secure your safety do that and then fight back. Don't stop fighting back. Don't fall into individualist thought because it just gives fascists what they want. Voting is the first thing I suggested because it's D&D and people here do believe that will work. I'm skeptical but at the least it's a better option than handing territory and power to fascists and then being shocked when you're still not safe from them and there are many ways to take territory and power from them that are not voting and everyone, wether you think voting is a viable option or not, should also think about how they will fight back when that is no longer an option. Don't stop fighting. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 03:12
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Crain posted:It's in the part you cut off: Balkanization at best, Years of Lead and The Troubles at worst. When you're back: can you describe the timetable along which these things start happening? I honestly have a hard time trying to wrap my head around what you're predicting, and some more information about the order of things or when you see them occurring would be extremely helpful for my understanding. Thank you!
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Jul 3, 2022 06:16
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Gumball Gumption posted:Then find solidarity with the people they also want to kill and start fighting back. Voting is one of many many ways of fighting back and I went to it first because well, it's D&D and when in Rome post like the Romans do. Don't think of it as voting, think of it as one of our possible solutions is getting people who are actually ruthless about using power for the left and to protect the left into positions of power. You've also posted some really good ones and those are positions of power you can take without being voted in. Your original post was about fleeing which is just gently caress you got mine but instead of saying got mine you go "oh I'm so sorry you're stuck there. That's so sad. Camps you say? Oh just terrible" and that helps no one but yourself and that sense of American individualism is how we've gotten into this mess. Just leave is exactly what the fascists want you to do too and if it's all you've got you're just giving them what they want and that won't stop them. My question for this is: is there a way we can measure the success of voting, specifically? My impression in the last 6 months has been that, very frequently, politicians use leftist thought (as watered down as it gets) as a cloak to mobilize votes they wouldn't receive by being honest about their ideology and plans. When they get voted in, nothing changes. Sometimes, the facade of leftism allows them to insidiously pursue policy agendas that are incredbly opposed to the core values and beliefs of social democrats and everyone to their left. That's the big worry, right? Someone can say whatever they want and, when they get into office, do whatever they want. Being able to call yourself an enemy of fascism is just what everyone does now, and it matters not at all who is or isn't because the choice will always be guy 1 (like Joe Manchin) and guy 2 (some explicitly racist conservative dude). So how do we know when voting works? What needs to happen for us to examine the fight we've been putting up and figure out what has been successful and what hasn't? If voting is an ineffective way to improve the quality of life of marginalized peoples, should we keep doing it? Etc. I feel like voting is important, but how do we know we're doing it right?
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Jul 3, 2022 06:25
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What happens if you don't fit into a local mutual aid group, or if individuals in that mutual aid group treat you in an inappropriate way or attempt to exploit you?
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Jul 3, 2022 06:38
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Nessus posted:What happens if you don't fit into a local mutual aid group, or if individuals in that mutual aid group treat you in an inappropriate way or attempt to exploit you? I gotta say, this is what I find myself always sort of trying to ask people when they get real doomer like that, because “local organizing” is always the answer they offer up instead of just saying they think somebody should murder the entire government. These systems of exploitation didn’t create themselves, it’s just the nature of people, and unfortunately a lot of the time, the person running the local punk house providing food and shelter to activists is just as nasty on a smaller scale, but with the correct politics. I don’t accept that what needs to happen is Vote Hard either, but good lord get a grip.
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Jul 3, 2022 06:48
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NeatHeteroDude posted:When you're back: can you describe the timetable along which these things start happening? I honestly have a hard time trying to wrap my head around what you're predicting, and some more information about the order of things or when you see them occurring would be extremely helpful for my understanding. Thank you! You’re already seeing low-level/moderate stochastic terrorism, some of it organized. City police have been clear that they see themselves above any attempt at regulation, as with the NYPD a few years ago when they threatened to ignore new rules. States have also begun forming regional coalitions or pacts that function independently of the federal government, as with those states that voluntarily maintained emissions standards after trump pulled out of the Paris accords. You’ve seen supply chain and economic disruption as well. It wouldn’t necessarily be an apocalyptic change or a clear break with what you know now, like the Soviet Union dissolving. It would be like now only moreso, only worse and harder to live through. Think about all the ways in which you’re vulnerable and all of the ways in which life is currently difficult and imagine a future where that continues and intensifies in unpredictable ways. Mutual aid already happens and communities already have ways of organizing against things like fascist marches. Just imagine that getting more visible and important as power outages and various kinds of shortages become more common and are increasingly seen as a normal part of life.
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Jul 3, 2022 06:55
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NeatHeteroDude posted:That's the big worry, right? Someone can say whatever they want and, when they get into office, do whatever they want. I mean, that's literally what Sinema did. It's not a hypothetical worry, it's current political fact.
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Jul 3, 2022 06:56
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Tetramin posted:I gotta say, this is what I find myself always sort of trying to ask people when they get real doomer like that, because “local organizing” is always the answer they offer up instead of just saying they think somebody should murder the entire government.
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Jul 3, 2022 07:09
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If the establishment Democrats refuse to fight Republicans with all they got because of decorum and if progressive Democrats refuse to fight the establishment with all they got, than there really is no other alternative than leftist militias protecting all these mutual aid networks from either fascist government, rightist militias, or both. It just seems that there aren't any leftist militias either. Whether that is due to opsec or due to the same decorum-obsessed 'we must reach out for Republicans, not hanging out with active fascists is surrender"- handwringers being in charge, I don't know.
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Jul 3, 2022 07:46
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It's been funny to see the same circular argument play out online for twenty years only for the US to become progressively more fascist and theocratic. Democrats are not going to save you and will not. Sure, vote for them if you want but there's no need to defend or support them unless they're paying you to. They compete with Republicans for the same bloc of voters. Only appealing to the right allows them to continue getting donations from the wealthy and corporations. https://theintercept.com/2016/11/14/chuck-schumer-the-worst-possible-democratic-leader-at-the-worst-possible-time/ quote:“For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”
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Jul 3, 2022 07:48
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DarkCrawler posted:If the establishment Democrats refuse to fight Republicans with all they got because of decorum and if progressive Democrats refuse to fight the establishment with all they got, than there really is no other alternative than leftist militias protecting all these mutual aid networks from either fascist government, rightist militias, or both. https://socialistra.org/
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Jul 3, 2022 07:49
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This thread has wandered away from current events a bit today and in a couple cases into topics that are already very well-trodden and have their own threads. I would encourage you all to continue discussion in an appropriate spinoff thread (see below) unless it's directly related to current events. For now this is just a heads up, if there continues to be significant discussion on some of these topics we may ask more firmly that they moved to a more appropriate venue. Just Sever: Bad people are still bad people even if they are related to you https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3986818 I've reopened this for now. US State and Local Politics: Parks and Recreation and Nazis https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3873661 US Politics and Voting: Both Sides Bad, but Especially Dems https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3986700
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Jul 3, 2022 08:08
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DarkCrawler posted:If the establishment Democrats refuse to fight Republicans with all they got because of decorum and if progressive Democrats refuse to fight the establishment with all they got, than there really is no other alternative than leftist militias protecting all these mutual aid networks from either fascist government, rightist militias, or both.
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Jul 3, 2022 08:17
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If you report someone for goatseing the thread and then use Discord to attract immediate attention to the report, it would not. Theres a discord where the mods hang out that we can use to get immediate attention? Which discord is this, and why is it not posted in the rules thread so everyone can join it?
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Jul 3, 2022 09:06
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Nix Panicus posted:Theres a discord where the mods hang out that we can use to get immediate attention? it's in the rules thread https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3980065
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Jul 3, 2022 09:34
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Nix Panicus posted:Theres a discord where the mods hang out that we can use to get immediate attention? Yes, there is a joint D&D/CSPAM mod discord where all the politics forum moderators and IKs are members. The purpose of this Discord server is to allow regular SA users to quickly communicate with mods on urgent matters and also for mods to interact with each other. I don't see it listed in any stickied D&D threads, it was previously. That would seem to be a significant oversight though not many users make use of Discord for contacting us. Here is a link: https://discord.gg/npMXp9kbWm Please keep in mind that "immediate attention" does not mean a D&D or CSPAM moderator is going to drop whatever they're doing and attend to your internet argument. Examples of things to ping us on Discord with might be: suicidal ideation, threats of violence, doxxing. If a thread is really going to poo poo and someone's trolling it or it's otherwise becoming a huge mess without moderation presence, that might also qualify. If it's your typical everday internet arguments and stuff that is not very urgent, reports or PMs here on the forums are better. SA moderators are volunteers and we agree to moderate because we care about the forum community and want to help improve it. The Discord server is a quicker way to get ahold of us if it something is urgent, but please don't pester us about some tedious low-level bullshit that can wait a couple hours until someone looks at the report queue. Jeffrey and the admins strongly prefer that all "serious" forums business be conducted here via PM or in the public/mod forums. Discord is simply a convenient, unofficial channel that allows for quicker communication. edit: as above, the Discord link is still in the CSPAM rules thread. Doesn't seem to have been reposted for the recent overhaul of D&D rules. edit2: I pinged Koos Group on the same Discord mentioned above, he might have further comments or elaboration. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 09:37
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DarkCrawler posted:If the establishment Democrats refuse to fight Republicans with all they got because of decorum and if progressive Democrats refuse to fight the establishment with all they got, than there really is no other alternative than leftist militias protecting all these mutual aid networks from either fascist government, rightist militias, or both. Likely a bit of both, but yes, a key part of surviving as anything remotely resembling a leftist militia is making sure not to advertise, because there have been very many grisly examples of what happens to any remotely known figure who tries to organise against white supremacy in any meaningful way.
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Jul 3, 2022 09:57
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Call me a doomer, but does anybody see anything changing significantly for the better anytime soon? The way I see it the legal ways we can project our collective will are voting, boycotting, mass strikes, and protests. Some of these options are hardly effective at actually projecting power, the legality of some is questionable (especially looking to the future), and they all require large amounts of somewhat organized people with some sort of unifying ideal, goal, or enemy. I don't think it's crazy to say that's not happening barring some extreme unforseen occurrence, or a collapse and failure so great as to completely reshape people's paradigms. That would likely be at the expense of many of the resources and institutions that we could use to improve our world and lives, and probably also mean major material loss in quality of life and thus, violence and chaos. The outlook on climate change and the cascading failures of our systems and natural world is grimmer every day that nothing substantially changes, and the changes we do see seem to be for the worse (at least in america, scotus just declawed our already insufficient regulatory capabilities), and finally the required changes grow more drastic and difficult every minute we kick this can down the road. The benefits of local support networks and community collaboration is twofold. First, it helps break people of the programming that 1) makes them dependant on the status quo, 2) easily directs their fear and anger, and 3) robs them of their ability to imagine anything better. If there was a chance to avoid collapse, that's the only chance I see. Second, if the imminint poo poo does critically hit the fan, those communities will be much more likely to survive. If we only see people in terms of left and right, that is a fractured and combative effort. If we're being honest about the projected trajectory of our current power structures, those identities and ideas become meaningless as only survival and strength through collaboration will matter. Leftist militia? No, simply communities that can support each other (and unfortunately likely have to resist actual far right militias, which we do seem to be seeing more of. All the more evidence that all this has already failed). This sucks, we lost and we're going to have to start over or simply succumb and despair. Hope this isn't considered extending the derail, but I don't think it quite fits in the threads fritz suggested and if you can oblige this idea it makes a lot of our BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 14:54
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BRJurgis posted:Call me a doomer, but does anybody see anything changing significantly for the better anytime soon? The way I see it the legal ways we can project our collective will are voting, boycotting, mass strikes, and protests. Some of these options are hardly effective at actually projecting power, the legality of some is questionable (especially looking to the future), and they all require large amounts of somewhat organized people with some sort of unifying ideal, goal, or enemy. In some professions in some states, striking is already illegal.
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Jul 3, 2022 14:59
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Tetramin posted:I gotta say, this is what I find myself always sort of trying to ask people when they get real doomer like that, because “local organizing” is always the answer they offer up instead of just saying they think somebody should murder the entire government.  I don't think there's going to be a clean answer to "What do you do if people are exploiting you?" because any power structure is an avenue to help and exploit. Democracy is one of the answers to how we push back against that but lol also look where we are. Yeah, things are going to get ugly if the federal government collapses or takes a position of being proactively violent towards citizens. We will be entering the wilderness and the only answer to how to be safe in the wilderness is be careful and be prepared.Edit: To be incredibly clear, I also don't want anyone to have to go through this poo poo. It's awful and scary. But if you live somewhere and the rule of law suddenly gets obliterated like it can you had better be friendly with the local community and have safety in numbers. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 15:03
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Gumball Gumption posted:
The government is already being proactively violent towards multiple segments of its citizenry.
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Jul 3, 2022 15:24
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I don't know if this is a fundraising record but it sure is impressive. Just imagine what $80 million could do toward state & local elections.quote:Democrats swiftly raised $80M after court overturned Roe https://apnews.com/article/abortion-us-supreme-court-elections-campaigns-8a6e3db27082cc212e9e5183b25e7c32
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Jul 3, 2022 15:38
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BRJurgis posted:Call me a doomer, but does anybody see anything changing significantly for the better anytime soon? Pretty obviously not. "Doomer" is just another word like "conspiracy theorist", used to close down legitimate and essential avenues of thought and discussion by lumping in rational and legitimate analysis with disordered thinkers on the fringes. Probably fine to use it ironically but let's not cede so much rhetorical ground without reflecting on who benefits
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Jul 3, 2022 15:41
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